Speculation: Duchene trade looking back

[Halla]

Losing a 1st, 3rd, Hammond, and Bowers to upgrade from Turris to Duchene is a steep price to pay. Hammond as a cap dump, and Turris wanting more than Duchene is making are the only reason this made any sense. Still a very steep price to pay.

Playoffs or not.

Turris got the same as duchene (6m)
Duchene will make 8+ mil when his contract expires after the upcoming season

it will set ottawa back years if he walks for nothing after what they gave up

 

[cgf]

Didn't know about that Ottawa deal.

I do remember Roy not being overly fond of Duchene though. Same with Barrie.

It was moreso that Roy realized the team needed big changes to fix it's blueline-corps and he wanted to be aggressive about fixing it; while Duchene was the best piece to address our future on D with MacKinnon around.

And Roy not liking Barrie was always just media speculation. Though Patrick had a second big trade lined up after the Dutchy trade & the Radu signing that would've followed, Barrie wasn't that 2nd piece he would've moved out.

 

[Joe Sakic]

It was moreso that Roy realized the team needed big changes to fix it's blueline-corps and he wanted to be aggressive about fixing it; while Duchene was the best piece to address our future on D with MacKinnon around.

And Roy not liking Barrie was always just media speculation. Though Patrick had a second big trade lined up after the Dutchy trade & the Radu signing that would've followed, Barrie wasn't that 2nd piece he would've moved out.

Really?

I remember reading that Roy did not like Barrie's game and wanted to move him to Winnipeg for Trouba.

Part of the reason salary arbitration was so difficult with him was partly if not mostly due to Roy.

 

[cgf]

Really?

I remember reading that Roy did not like Barrie's game and wanted to move him to Winnipeg for Trouba.

Part of the reason salary arbitration was so difficult with him was partly if not mostly due to Roy.

Nope, always just media speculation that Roy did like Barrie. Patty wanted to upgrade the defence because the defence was bad, not because he didn't like Barrie. They went to arbitration just because they weren't ready to commit to Barrie...like our organization often isn't with guys who weren't super high picks like Dutchy, Landy & MacK.

I dunno if Tyson was ever part of the Trouba-talks with Winnipeg; but if he was, that woulda been more one of those 'you're including a stud that they want to get a stud that you want' type deals, rather than Roy actively shopping Barrie.

 

[Joe Sakic]

Nope, always just media speculation that Roy did like Barrie. Patty wanted to upgrade the defence because the defence was bad, not because he didn't like Barrie. They went to arbitration just because they weren't ready to commit to Barrie...like our organization often isn't with guys who weren't super high picks like Dutchy, Landy & MacK.

I dunno if Tyson was ever part of the Trouba-talks with Winnipeg; but if he was, that woulda been more one of those 'you're including a stud that they want to get a stud that you want' type deals, rather than Roy actively shopping Barrie.

This is what I found on a quick google search.

"But these discussions are coming from very credible sources, Hockey Night in Canada, Elliot Friedman, people like that who we have to take seriously because of their inroads into the cognoscenti up in Canada. It’s very obvious that the Avalanche’s Patrick Roy has disowned the scooter defenceman-type philosophy that permeated their previous drafting philosophy. I think Patrick Roy really wants to get a big, strong defence. I think he really believes that Tyson Barrie should be at best a fifth defenceman and a power play specialist, so I think they will look at this contract negotiation and potential arbitration and say, ‘This is going to skew our salary structure for a guy we’re not really enamoured of.’ "

Cult of Hockey: Avs likely to swallow "bitter pill" of Tyson Barrie's contract, insider says

Sakic’s headline-making July 31 transaction — re-signing defenceman Tyson Barrie for four years at $5.5 million US per season — may explain the odd timing of Roy’s departure. It has long been public knowledge that Barrie is not held in the same high regard by the bench boss as he is in the hockey community at-large.

Au Revoir, Avs: Patrick Roy resigns as Avalanche head coach after three seasons

It seems clear he did not like Barrie on his team and would have traded him if he could. Also seemed keeping Barrie played a role in his departure as coach.


I also cannot find anything about Matt Duchene being placed on the trading block prior to his official trade request in December to Sakic. Are you making this up? There seems to be no evidence of that.

 

[Ivan13]

Staples is a hack, that is all.

 

[cgf]

This is what I found on a quick google search.


Cult of Hockey: Avs likely to swallow "bitter pill" of Tyson Barrie's contract, insider says





Au Revoir, Avs: Patrick Roy resigns as Avalanche head coach after three seasons

It seems clear he did not like Barrie on his team and would have traded him if he could. Also seemed keeping Barrie played a role in his departure as coach.


I also cannot find anything about Matt Duchene being placed on the trading block prior to his official trade request in December to Sakic. Are you making this up? There seems to be no evidence of that.

Exactly, the Barrie thing was all always just speculation driven by the canadian & eastern media.


And no, Sakic didn't ever come out and say Duchene was on the block, even after Matt's trade request; but we've heard about the Chabot+Zibanejad deal & the Radu signing that would've follow it, from a few insiders that have different sources into the Avs, but who had heard the same things.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

It is quite amazing how bad the Sens management were at evaluating their own team. The Duchene trade only made sense if the Sens would be a legit playoff team, instead they were a bottom feeder.

 

[WingsOverAvs]

It is quite amazing how bad the Sens management were at evaluating their own team. The Duchene trade only made sense if the Sens would be a legit playoff team, instead they were a bottom feeder.

their owner is also notoriously cheap so the likelihood of low ball offers is high, as are the chances of the players walking because of it. Melnyk is a Grade A scumbag

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Exactly, the Barrie thing was all always just speculation driven by the canadian & eastern media.


And no, Sakic didn't ever come out and say Duchene was on the block, even after Matt's trade request; but we've heard about the Chabot+Zibanejad deal & the Radu signing that would've follow it, from a few insiders that have different sources into the Avs, but who had heard the same things.

I'm in pretty strong disagreement with you here.

Obviously Roy is never going to come right out and say it, but when there's that much media speculation about Roy not liking Barrie along with his usage...



I think it was actually quite obvious during Roys stint here that he was never a big fan of Barrie. Not really sure why you feel like arguing against something that neither side can definitively prove so strongly.


I dont think Barrie was necessarily a reason Roy left or anything, but there's not doubt in my mind that if Roy had been the GM with the final say in roster moves that Barrie would not be with the Avs today. He just didn't fit the direction Roy wanted to go in with this team.

 

[cgf]

I'm in pretty strong disagreement with you here.

Obviously Roy is never going to come right out and say it, but when there's that much media speculation about Roy not liking Barrie along with his usage...



I think it was actually quite obvious during Roys stint here that he was never a big fan of Barrie. Not really sure why you feel like arguing against something that neither side can definitively prove so strongly.


I dont think Barrie was necessarily a reason Roy left or anything, but there's not doubt in my mind that if Roy had been the GM with the final say in roster moves that Barrie would not be with the Avs today. He just didn't fit the direction Roy wanted to go in with this team.

Because out of all the rumors that didn’t happen that I heard about, Barrie was never the core guy being discussed. Duchene? Sure, ROR? oh yes, Varly? Yup, Landeskog? Also yes. But none of them about shopping EJ, Barrie, MacK or Mikko

And how was his usage a sign of anything other than Roy’s fondness for Barrie?

 

[Hasbro]

Ottawa is not going to win the division but I don't think a playoff spot is out of the realm of possibility next season.

Maybe I'm blinded by misguided optimism.

If they trade away all of the talent for no return, then I suppose it's not very likely.

If Anderson continues with his good season/bad season pattern, there's a chance. If he's just old and washed up, nope.

Denial

Yeah how do you know its going to be a top 10 ??Ottawa can easily make the playoffs next season ,a healthy EK does lots for us

Anger

So obviously the Senators will trade Karlsson (with Bobby Ryan) for a garbage return, lose Duchene to UFA and Stone will be left wondering why he agreed on July 1st to re-up for 8 more years.

Side note. Anyone want to trade owners? Anyone? Bueller?

Bargining

Ottawa traded their 3rd to get rid of Hammond. The owner is cutting costs back so much that the people that work in the office have to take out their own garbage because he fired the cleaning crew. You cant afford to pay a guy $1,500,000 America, to play on your farm team with an owner and budget like that

Depession

The whole point of the Senators adding all those futures was so that they wouldn't have to give up Brown/White/Ceci. I realize it blew up in Dorion's face, but giving up one of our blue chip players isn't the solution either.

Acceptance

 

[Joe Sakic]

Exactly, the Barrie thing was all always just speculation driven by the canadian & eastern media.


And no, Sakic didn't ever come out and say Duchene was on the block, even after Matt's trade request; but we've heard about the Chabot+Zibanejad deal & the Radu signing that would've follow it, from a few insiders that have different sources into the Avs, but who had heard the same things.

You are saying the Barrie quotes are speculation. That may be fair, but we have several different sources specifically stating Roy saw Barrie as a nothing more than a bottom pairing defenseman. We also saw Roy resign as head coach the same summer Barrie was signed to a contract extension. There are several arrows pointing to Roy not being fond of Barrie.

On the flip side, you say this Duchene rumor came from "insiders", instead of speculation, but there seems to be nothing on it. I am however able to find direct quotes from Sakic saying that "Duchene came to me and asked for a trade in December" and also Matt Duchene himself saying that he had asked Sakic for a trade. Nothing before that.

It seems as though you are labeling things as "speculation" versus "insiders from sources into the Avs" just to fit your own agenda/opinion.

 

[cgf]

You are saying the Barrie quotes are speculation. That may be fair, but we have several different sources specifically stating Roy saw Barrie as a nothing more than a bottom pairing defenseman. We also saw Roy resign as head coach the same summer Barrie was signed to a contract extension. There are several arrows pointing to Roy not being fond of Barrie.

On the flip side, you say this Duchene rumor came from "insiders", instead of speculation, but there seems to be nothing on it. I am however able to find direct quotes from Sakic saying that "Duchene came to me and asked for a trade in December" and also Matt Duchene himself saying that he had asked Sakic for a trade. Nothing before that.

It seems as though you are labeling things as "speculation" versus "insiders from sources into the Avs" just to fit your own agenda/opinion.

Roy resigned because he had the Duchene trade, a 2nd big trade that hasn't made it to the public yet, and the Radu signing worked out; only for Sakic to nix all of it at the last minute. His power was taken away, since Sakic refused to be as aggressive as Roy wanted, and after stewing about it all summer he walked away instead of heading out for another year of being scapegoated for the team's crap blueline...and Joe refusing to draft any blueliners in the 1st also didn't help.

Nevermind that if Roy actually saw Barrie as nothing more than a bottom pairing defenseman, then wouldn't he have used him like a bottom pairing defenseman?

This stuff comes from guys who've called stuff about the avs, who the national press is notoriously inaccurate with, correctly & have given us insights that weren't reported in the general press beforehand. And I'm not the only poster on our board who got PMs about it as I'm pretty sure that RL & TMV heard the same things. That Roy wanted aggressive changes, which would've addressed our future on the blueline, and had a number of moves negotiated & ready for Sakic's signature. Only for Joe undermining Patrick's credibility with other GMs, by refusing to make any of those moves, to drive the two of them apart...even though, in the end, Sakic did end up doing versions of those big changes that Roy was banging away about; i.e. the year after Roy left he did draft a blueliner high in the 1st, and then traded Duchene for a bluechip LHD prospect+

You don't have to believe it and can put more stock in the national media, who rely on sources like Chambers & Dater for Avs info; but I believe the posters in question on this one. As I heard it from different people who have very different connections to the team.

 

[topshelf15]

Denial
Anger

Bargining


Depession


Acceptance

Piling on

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I know most of Ottawa fans are very happy with Duchene: we gave up none of the high quality pieces everybody was sure we'd have to give up to get an upgrade on Turris who we weren't keeping.

Sure a bunch of us also bemoan how much we gave up but if we have a bounce back year, the only real piece we gave up was Turris. Bowers is a good prospect but unlikely to make the NHL for the next while.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I know most of Ottawa fans are very happy with Duchene: we gave up none of the high quality pieces everybody was sure we'd have to give up to get an upgrade on Turris who we weren't keeping.

Sure a bunch of us also bemoan how much we gave up but if we have a bounce back year, the only real piece we gave up was Turris. Bowers is a good prospect but unlikely to make the NHL for the next while.

Yeah, just a former 1st round pick who had a very strong draft + 1 year, and another 1st round pick that has a very, very real possibility of being in the Top 10 next year with a chance at wining the lottery for Jack Hughes.


That 1st alone is worth more then Turris himself right now.


It amazes me to see Sens fans continue on with this nonsense that they didn't give up anything of value to get Duchene. You gave up tremendous value for a very marginal upgrade over Turris(Go ahead and continue disregarding the Avs fans who have watched Duchene for the better part of a decade now as well tell you this upgrade is marginal).

 

[V13]

Biggest winner is Colorado imho. They got rid of Duchene and his contract , got a 1st and some OK prospects out of it and Duchene being gone allowed MacKinnon to take center stage and finally blossom out into the player he was projected to become when he was drafted 1st overall

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Yeah, just a former 1st round pick who had a very strong draft + 1 year, and another 1st round pick that has a very, very real possibility of being in the Top 10 next year with a chance at wining the lottery for Jack Hughes.


That 1st alone is worth more then Turris himself right now.


It amazes me to see Sens fans continue on with this nonsense that they didn't give up anything of value to get Duchene. You gave up tremendous value for a very marginal upgrade over Turris(Go ahead and continue disregarding the Avs fans who have watched Duchene for the better part of a decade now as well tell you this upgrade is marginal).

I am not disregarding anything except this hormonal flare up you seem to be experiencing.

Take a deep breath. It's gonna be ok.

 

[Senscore]

It amazes me to see Sens fans continue on with this nonsense that they didn't give up anything of value to get Duchene. You gave up tremendous value for a very marginal upgrade over Turris(Go ahead and continue disregarding the Avs fans who have watched Duchene for the better part of a decade now as well tell you this upgrade is marginal).

Yeah but we watched Turris for the better part of a decade and you didn't. This can go around and around.

As far as the assets the Sens gave up, they are pretty much still in the mystery box stage. They aren't without value, but just how much really remains to be seen.

 

[Joe Sakic]

Roy resigned because he had the Duchene trade, a 2nd big trade that hasn't made it to the public yet, and the Radu signing worked out; only for Sakic to nix all of it at the last minute. His power was taken away, since Sakic refused to be as aggressive as Roy wanted, and after stewing about it all summer he walked away instead of heading out for another year of being scapegoated for the team's crap blueline...and Joe refusing to draft any blueliners in the 1st also didn't help.

Of course there are many reasons Roy resigned. But where are you getting the Matt Duchene on the trade block prior to his trade request from? You seem to be pulling that from nothing. I can't find any clipings or articles or tweets on this. There's nothing.

Nevermind that if Roy actually saw Barrie as nothing more than a bottom pairing defenseman, then wouldn't he have used him like a bottom pairing defenseman?

I'm saying he wanted to trade Barrie, not that he didn't want to play him. Putting him on the bottom pairing would destroy his trade value as well.

This stuff comes from guys who've called stuff about the avs, who the national press is notoriously inaccurate with, correctly & have given us insights that weren't reported in the general press beforehand. And I'm not the only poster on our board who got PMs about it as I'm pretty sure that RL & TMV heard the same things. That Roy wanted aggressive changes, which would've addressed our future on the blueline, and had a number of moves negotiated & ready for Sakic's signature. Only for Joe undermining Patrick's credibility with other GMs, by refusing to make any of those moves, to drive the two of them apart...even though, in the end, Sakic did end up doing versions of those big changes that Roy was banging away about; i.e. the year after Roy left he did draft a blueliner high in the 1st, and then traded Duchene for a bluechip LHD prospect+
You don't have to believe it and can put more stock in the national media, who rely on sources like Chambers & Dater for Avs info; but I believe the posters in question on this one. As I heard it from different people who have very different connections to the team.

Would love to see some evidence on this. RL or TMV please feel free to chime in as well.

All media reports, articles, and tweets point towards Roy not liking Barrie as a player. I hold that in higher regard than a few PMs on a hockey message board. However, if I see these messages from somebody and they are able to provide any proof of having insider info or connections with the Avs in anyway whatsoever I will gladly clamp my mouth shut. We've been on this board long enough to know how much random garbage gets spewed around on here with nothing backing it up.

 

[Freudian]

Staples is a hack, that is all.

At least he's using credible sources in Chambers and Frei.

 

[branch]

I don't know. He was amazing from December onwards. I'll wait for Avs people to come in here and say he's streaky, or gets in his head too much, he can't keep it up etc, but if he goes like he did in from the aforementioned time period Ottawa is good shape. He was on fire, he made the entire team around him better.

 

[Hasbro]

I know most of Ottawa fans are very happy with Duchene: we gave up none of the high quality pieces everybody was sure we'd have to give up to get an upgrade on Turris who we weren't keeping.

Sure a bunch of us also bemoan how much we gave up but if we have a bounce back year, the only real piece we gave up was Turris. Bowers is a good prospect but unlikely to make the NHL for the next while.

The value question is devoid of context here. Trading prospects and picks for a 27 year old headed for free agency became the opposite of the kind of trade the Sens should have been making about two weeks later.

It's like buying a Porsche and thinking the financing is good... but you get laid off a week later.

From the Avalanche perspective: say Girard being what he is alone would be great salvage value for a player of Duchene forcing his way out. Girard plus Bowers or Kamenev turning into a 3rd liner would be even value for Duchene. Anything in addition to that it becomes a win, and that 1st is house money.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

If Ottawa makes the playoffs next year, it was a reasonable price to pay. If they hand Colorado a top 5 pick it hurts a lot.

If the Sens can fix their blueline and Anderson has his typical good year after a bad one routine, the playoffs aren't out of the question by any means.

But when you go into a season depending on ifs . . . That's never a good sign.