Rumor: Duchene for...? Part III

[JoemAvs]

I agree that playing from behind so much was probably part of that. But there's a limit, I don't think Barrie at 25 minutes gets you more offense.

It makes sense to throw him out there at the end of the game if we are down because with all his faults he is still our best bet to do something offensively on our blueline.

But 25 minutes is just too much. I would attribute it to Bednar being desperate and him being a rookie coach who does not know this team well trying some stuff out.

The problem is that the alternatives haven't been good. Aside from EJ (who had his fair share of boneheadedness early on as well), no one is doing well aside from maybe Zads (who got demoted earlier).

The solution would have probably been simply trusting Zads way more and trying out a higher workload for Wiercioch.

But yeah. Now with EJ out it is sink or swim time for Barrie. He should play 22-23+ minutes a game no matter what now. Maybe it will help him take his next step.
IMO he looked best in his career when EJ was out. Hopefully he can get back to that level.

The one that has to get his minutes reduced right now with EJ out is Beauch not Barrie. I fully agree with that.

 

[CobraAcesS]

It's ridiculous that you could put those two in the same category to be 100% honest with you.

That's all I'll say. Faulk is nothing more than a bigger Barrie to me. Solid defenseman. But he's not a #1 on a championship caliber team. Not even close. AND if we trade Duchene. Even if you don't get a current similar age #1 on cup team back ie Hedman or OEL. You need to get a prospect with a solid chance of reaching that status and then a little extra forward prospect.

Btw I'm not saying Sergachev either. Idk about him tbh.

I really question how much actual knowledge you have of the players you are talking about. Seriously?

Can you honestly say that you've seen Faulk play more than twice in the last few years? lol

What in the hell are you basing this off of? Because you sound like someone who watches Carolina games on a regular basis.

I'm really sick of people talking like they actually know anything about a player both here in the NHL, and in the draft thread. It's at a literal sad BS level, and I'd like it to stop.

It makes sense to throw him out there at the end of the game if we are down because with all his faults he is still our best bet to do something offensively on our blueline.

But 25 minutes is just too much. I would attribute it to Bednar being desperate and him being a rookie coach who does not know this team well trying some stuff out.

The problem is that the alternatives haven't been good. Aside from EJ (who had his fair share of boneheadedness early on as well), no one is doing well aside from maybe Zads (who got demoted earlier).

The solution would have probably been simply trusting Zads way more and trying out a higher workload for Wiercioch.

But yeah. Now with EJ out it is sink or swim time for Barrie. He should play 22-23+ minutes a game no matter what now. Maybe it will help him take his next step.
IMO he looked best in his career when EJ was out. Hopefully he can get back to that level.

The one that has to get his minutes reduced right now with EJ out is Beauch not Barrie. I fully agree with that.

So you'd like to retract what you said earlier about Barrie versus Faulk? And you now understand why I said what I said? I feel like I shouldn't need to ask this considering what you posted quoting my post, and your "My Bad" comment should have probably involved my post. Just saying, considering what you said in that previous post.

 

[JoemAvs]

I really question how much actual knowledge you have of the players you are talking about. Seriously?

Can you honestly say that you've seen Faulk play more than twice in the last few years? lol

What in the hell are you basing this off of? Because you sound like someone who watches Carolina games on a regular basis.



So you'd like to retract what you said earlier about Barrie versus Faulk? And you now understand why I said what I said? I feel like I shouldn't need to ask this considering what you posted quoting my post, and your "My Bad" comment should have probably involved my post. Just saying, considering what you said in that post.

No not really. I still think you are wrong about Faulk and the trade. Very wrong.

But yeah I did not realize Barrie was playing that much and tbh I think it is a mistake (EJ should always play more than Barrie. Always...) On that account you are included into the my bad.


And can people please stop with the "have you seen X play"?
Opinions on players differ. Just look at the draft rankings. Scouts watching each game 10x over and come to fundamentally different conclusions.

It is not a stretch to not consider Faulk all that great. I have obviously not watched each and every Carolina game over the last couple of seasons. Far from it and I bet you don't have either. No one is watching each game of every team. That would be ridiculous (and does not mean you can not have an opinion). But I have seen enough of them to draw my own conclusions from it. Same as you do.

And I agree with Gabe that you guys are way overhyping his defensive prowess (which is the major sticking point of the whole discussion). Comparing him to OEL is ridiculous.

 

[CobraAcesS]

No not really. I still think you are wrong about Faulk and the trade. Very wrong.

But yeah I did not realize Barrie was playing that much and tbh I think it is a mistake (EJ should always play more than Barrie. Always...) On that account you are included into the my bad.


And can people please stop with the "have you seen X play"?
Opinions on players differ. Just look at the draft rankings. Scouts watching each game 10x over and come to fundamentally different conclusions.

It is not a stretch to consider Faulk all that great. I have obviously not watched each and every Carolina game over the last couple of seasons. Far from it. But I have seen enough to draw my own conclusions from it. Same as you do.

And I agree with Gabe that you guys are way overhyping his defensive prowess (which is the major sticking point of the whole discussion).

That should never stop, because it's a legit question, and you *****ing about that question just tells me that you are not solid in your own knowledge. Otherwise you should be on board with that completely.

NO BS COMMENT YOU COME UP WITH holds any weight if you are trying to base your opinion on what amounts to hyperbole. So crapping on "Have you seen X play" is a clear sign that your arguments are based on who knows what, honestly.

At this point, I've pretty much lost all respect for any opinion you might have if it does not involve actual viewings of said player. Seriously, GTFO

 

[JoemAvs]

That should never stop, because it's a legit question, and you *****ing about that question just tells me that you are not solid in your own knowledge. Otherwise you should be on board with that completely.

NO BS COMMENT YOU COME UP WITH holds any weight if you are trying to base your opinion on what amounts to hyperbole. So crapping on "Have you seen X play" is a clear sign that your arguments are based on who knows what, honestly.

At this point, I've pretty much lost all respect for any opinion you might have if it does not involve actual viewings of said player. Seriously, GTFO

Why do you have to be so angry? Did your kitten die or something?

You disagree with my opinion. That is fine. But you are trying to discredit it by saying this is ******** and can only be your opinion if you haven't seen him play.


Which is ridiculous because performance evaluation is highly subjective.
Especially when it comes to defensemen.

You even admitted yourself that you basically had no idea that the guy has been struggling this year which was obvious to anyone actually watching a Canes game this season which completely invalidates your own line of argument.

So yeah. I can live with you not valuing my opinion. I will survive that...

I don't really understand why you have been freaking out about this so much,though.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Why do you have to be so angry? Did your kitten die or something?

You disagree with my opinion. That is fine. But you are trying to discredit it by saying this is ******** and can only be your opinion if you haven't seen him play.


Which is ridiculous because performance evaluation is highly subjective.
Especially when it comes to defensemen.

You even admitted yourself that you basically had no idea that the guy has been struggling this year which was obvious to anyone actually watching a Canes game this season which completely invalidates your own line of argument.

So yeah. I can live with you not valuing my opinion. I will survive that...

I don't really understand why you have been freaking out about this so much,though.

No I specifically said he played better than EJ in the games that I've seen this year, but go ahead an ignore the context that I laid out if it helps your narrative. You should pay attention when I post, because I'm fairly careful to reference specifically the subject that I'm speaking about. Apparently you missed that aspect, or chose too in order continue to say something relevant.

Honestly if you can even remotely argue against actual viewing of a player then you are just trying to protect your BS straw man argument, and you are probably better off just not replying continuing to embarrass yourself.

 

[JoemAvs]

No I specifically said he played better than Barrie in the games that I've seen this year, but go ahead an ignore the context that I laid out if it helps your narrative. You should pay attention when I post, because I'm fairly careful to reference specifically the subject that I'm speaking about. Apparently you missed that aspect, or chose too in order continue to say something relevant.

Honestly if you can even remotely argue against actual viewing of a player then you are just trying to protect your BS straw man argument, and you are probably better off just not replying continuing to embarrass yourself.

You also seem to lack in reading comprehension.
I am certainly not arguing about actual viewing a player.

I am arguing about using it as means to try to "win" an argument by insinuating that the opposing opinion is dumb and can only be formed if you have never watched him play.
Because that is ridiculous.

I think we both have seen almost each Avs game over the last few years. Atleast enough to make a valid evaluation of the performances of our players.
Would you agree?

And yet we still frequently disagree on their performances and especially on what the players in general are/ can be.

A good example for that are your ridiculous statements about MacKinnon earlier.

So no. Have you seen X play is not a valid means of winning an argument or discrediting someone elses opinion just because you don't like it.

People disagree all the time on players. Get used to it. And yeah I can also live with embarassing myself if that means having a legit discussion about hockey...

 

[CobraAcesS]

You also seem to lack in reading comprehension.
I am certainly not arguing about actual viewing a player.

I am arguing about using it as means to try to "win" an argument.
Because that is ridiculous.

I think we both have seen almost each Avs game over the last few years. Atleast enough to make a valid observation about the performances of our players.
Would you agree?

And yet we still frequently disagree on their performances and especially on what the players in general are/ can be.

A good example are your ridiculous statements about MacKinnon earlier.

So no. Have you seen X play is not a valid means of winning an argument or discrediting someone elses opinion.

People disagree all the time on players. Get used to it.

So a long winded way of saying you have zero to base your argument off of, and are going to divert to conversations about our own players that we have both seen an equal amount. Sure got it...

I love that you use MacKinnon as an example, because NO ONE was able to prove me wrong or say anything against the points that I made. Simply because they are based in reality and what he has actually done to this point. It's a difficult argument at this point that he is going to magically do something different that what he has already shown he is able to do. I kind of have the upper hand at this point unfortunately...

Edit : And that first sentence, I changed to EJ because I referenced that wrong. Faulk has been better than EJ in the Carolina games that I've seen this year. Which is around 10 of their games this season alone btw. CBJ, CAR, DET, TAMPA, PIT, and COL are the teams I watch the most. I lived in NC for five years, and that included the year they won the Cup. I was stationed in Fort Bragg, NC with the 82nd Airborne.

Have to admit, I run into a lot of conversation about Eastern teams here. It's not really what I would expect, but it's probably my strongest area of knowledge.

 

[JoemAvs]

So a long winded way of saying you have zero to base your argument off of, and are going to divert to conversations about our own players that we have both seen an equal amount. Sure got it...

I love that you use MacKinnon as an example, because NO ONE was able to prove me wrong or say anything against the points that I made. Simply because they are based in reality and what he has actually done to this point. It's a difficult argument at this point that he is going to magically do something different that what he has already shown he is able to do. I kind of have the upper hand at this point unfortunately...

In your reality. You don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that other people can see things differently.
That is the whole problem. And I feel sorry for you if you can't understand that and have to resort to attacking other posters in order to "win" an internet argument.

That is the last thing I will say about this.

 

[TheForsbergShow]

In your reality. You don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that other people can see things differently.
That is the whole problem. And I feel sorry for you if you can't understand that and have to resort to attacking other posters in order to "win" an internet argument.

That is the last thing I will say about this.

I second this post lol

 

[CobraAcesS]

In your reality. You don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that other people can see things differently.
That is the whole problem. And I feel sorry for you if you can't understand that and have to resort to attacking other posters in order to "win" an internet argument.

That is the last thing I will say about this.

Sounds like a last ditch attempt at sounding relevant when you don't have any real knowledge about something you're in an argument about, otherwise you would probably use facts instead of whining as a counter.

People need to stop posting strong opinions about things they have no first hand knowledge, especially if they don't want to be called out on it.

Why should anyone sit by and remotely deal with false narratives when they know differently?

Edit : Fair warning for anyone I get into an argument with, I've got no patience for a need to be 'Nice" in a discussion. I'll be generally civil, but by now most people know that I'll argue with anyone on any day on equal terms. It's not even remotely personal. Don't expect me to pull punches ever for anyone. Hell there are a few mods who knows that by now. That also does not make me smarter or better than anyone, as I'm just saying I don't really believe in sensibility over context. I love the spirit of a debate, and that's not always pretty.

 

[Iceberg]

That is embarrassing.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Faulk is overrated by HF as a whole, but quite underrated elsewhere (Bob Stauffer, USA Hockey, etc.) My take on it is that if he’s producing, he’s a lower-end to mid-tier 1D. If he’s not, he’s a solid, complimentary top-pairing guy.

Offensively, Faulk makes a good first pass and rushes the puck up the ice with authority, but he doesn’t have great vision in the offensive zone. His shot sets up his offensive game. It’s the same thing with Shea Weber. Faulk has run into some issues recently with his goal scoring. Around this time last year, we thought he was in the midst of a goal scoring breakout; he had a massive PPG outburst from Oct.-Dec. 15. After that point, his goal scoring on the PP dried up. From my vantage point, I think that teams have caught on to what Carolina’s trying to do with the man advantage. Give the puck to Faulk and let him shoot. The Canes don’t really have a threat to score from outside the high danger zone, aside from Faulk. PKers shade over to his side, lay-out and take away the shooting lane for his slap shot. To Faulk’s credit, he doesn’t try to shoot through them, but instead, tries to shoot around them with a wrist shot looking for deflections and/or rebounds. He’s not going to score a lot of goals with those low percentage shots, though.

Defensively, I don’t think his +/- matches up with his actual defensive ability. It’s weird. He’s on the ice for a lot of goals, but he’s not this albatross defensively (most of the time.) I view him as having above average defensive acumen. Faulk makes good, aggressive reads at the line and in the neutral zone. He has really good hand-eye and an active stick, which allows him to break up a lot passes, often in mid-air, and disrupt the flow of the attack. In the actual defensive zone, he’s solid. Nothing really stands out.

Anyway, the reason I said most of the time in parenthesis is because Faulk does have an issue with consistency. He has games and sometimes stretches of games in which he’s noticeably bad defensively. I’d like to blame the injury Brad Malone caused in practice last season, but this has been an issue I’ve noticed going all the way back to his days paired with Sekera.

Ideally, the Canes address the need for a forward in a different way (i.e. getting lucky with the lottery.) It’s probably a pipe dream, unfortunately. So, there may be a trade coming in the future. I’m not sure Faulk is the guy to go. His shot is a unique asset; if they can put some talent around him maybe that would create more lanes for him to use it. Additionally, Carolina right now has a nice balance of handedness on the backend. Of the notable defensive prospects in the pipeline, 2 are left-handed (Fleury and Bean) and only 1 is right-handed (McKeown). It may make more sense to move a LHS than a RHS for the purpose of maintaining that balance.

 

[Gabe the Babe]

I really question how much actual knowledge you have of the players you are talking about. Seriously?

Can you honestly say that you've seen Faulk play more than twice in the last few years? lol

What in the hell are you basing this off of? Because you sound like someone who watches Carolina games on a regular basis.

I'm really sick of people talking like they actually know anything about a player both here in the NHL, and in the draft thread. It's at a literal sad BS level, and I'd like it to stop.



So you'd like to retract what you said earlier about Barrie versus Faulk? And you now understand why I said what I said? I feel like I shouldn't need to ask this considering what you posted quoting my post, and your "My Bad" comment should have probably involved my post. Just saying, considering what you said in that previous post.

My guy. I don't post often. But I go to Ohio State. I'm an east coast kid. No I don't watch the Canes everyday. I watch a ton of CBJ and Avs games tho. But I have seen Faulk play live twice in person and at least double digit times in the last two years. Didn't leave me thinking "Jesus, wish he was an Av/BJ" not once.

I'm sorry if my opinion offends you. But to me I see a guy with a solid shot and one of the better PPQBs in the NHL. But he plays more minutes than I feel he can handle and I think he's more suited to be a #2 with a Vlasic/Suter type partner.

I'm not the only person who feels that way. I mean team USA just picked Jack ****ing Johnson over him. Even EJ for that matter. Good or bad decision aside. I'm clearly not the only person to see it that way.

Duchene goes. A true or potential #1 has to be coming back. I mean on a cup caliber team. My opinion is EJ isn't good enough to lead a blue line on an elite team. But he can be the Vlasic 1B type with a great partner. That's the same way I look at Faulk. And maybe Hanifin becomes that guy for Carolina and Hanifin/Faulk becomes Burns/Vlasic-esque.

Again no offense. But I only said something because. I wouldn't be happy with Faulk as a return and more importantly because someone put him in the same breath as OEL.

 

[The Merchant]

This thread is devolving into your atypical trade board discussion. Congratulations

 

[Avs71]

Interesting perspective on Faulk, and nice to see a Canes poster chime in.

So much of that description could be replaced with EJ.

 

[AslanRH]

my opinion:

Seguin doesn't break out in year 4 if he isn't traded, so who knows how his progression would have changed in Boston and in the system the Bruins play

Faulk is a #1 but more along the lines of a young Letang than a Hedman.


I guess I'll try to watch more hockey though. I'll try to keep a journal so I can cite references to any further opinions I may have. yikes, can't imagine why people feel there is no more room in the clubhouse on here.

 

[RockLobster]

In your reality. You don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that other people can see things differently.
That is the whole problem. And I feel sorry for you if you can't understand that and have to resort to attacking other posters in order to "win" an internet argument.

That is the last thing I will say about this.

Sounds like a last ditch attempt at sounding relevant when you don't have any real knowledge about something you're in an argument about, otherwise you would probably use facts instead of whining as a counter.

People need to stop posting strong opinions about things they have no first hand knowledge, especially if they don't want to be called out on it.

Why should anyone sit by and remotely deal with false narratives when they know differently?

Edit : Fair warning for anyone I get into an argument with, I've got no patience for a need to be 'Nice" in a discussion. I'll be generally civil, but by now most people know that I'll argue with anyone on any day on equal terms. It's not even remotely personal. Don't expect me to pull punches ever for anyone. Hell there are a few mods who knows that by now. That also does not make me smarter or better than anyone, as I'm just saying I don't really believe in sensibility over context. I love the spirit of a debate, and that's not always pretty.

How about you both knock it off, or you'll both be thread-banned and given infractions, sound good? If you feel the need to continue this, do so in PM with one another.

 

[AvsGuy]

Anyhow


Is there an immediate trade out there that would help this club? I know we all like to imagine shuffling the deck but is there someone out there who is struggling or whose team is struggling that we could pry loose in a trade?

 

[AslanRH]

Anyhow


Is there an immediate trade out there that would help this club? I know we all like to imagine shuffling the deck but is there someone out there who is struggling or whose team is struggling that we could pry loose in a trade?

Depends on the help you are looking for I suppose.

Help this year? probably nothing reasonable.

Help overall heading forward? Probably.

I have been wondering that too

does the purge in Florida of Tallon guys begin due to their rough start. Guys like Bjugstad, Petrovic, maybe some prospects in the system.

Does Tampa try and stir their lineup a bit while looking at next season's cap?

Are the Isles content going with basically the same roster for this season and next?

Does Dallas bite the bullet and try and right the ship with a goalie upgrade or reallocating a dman for a forward?

There are a lot of possibilities I think if the Avs FO isn't looking to win the trade on day 1, but are willing to win the trade by the start of 2017

 

[AvsGuy]

I still think we could get Dallas interested in Varlamov. And personally I'd take Bjugstad at 3C over either Soderberg or Mitchell.

 

[dahrougem2]

The one thing I always question when it comes to Duchene is that fans seem to expect a player who has potential to be a top-flight #1 defensemen in return. Which is fine if you can get it, but from a purely value standpoint, Duchene is not a top-flight #1 centre.

I'd put Duchene in the same tier of centres that I would put Faulk in for defensemen, but that's just me. I understand wanting the young potential #1 defensemen, but I don't know if that's realistic to expect given I don't know how many teams are willing to trade a guy like that.

 

[Shaggy88]

The one thing I always question when it comes to Duchene is that fans seem to expect a player who has potential to be a top-flight #1 defensemen in return. Which is fine if you can get it, but from a purely value standpoint, Duchene is not a top-flight #1 centre.

I'd put Duchene in the same tier of centres that I would put Faulk in for defensemen, but that's just me. I understand wanting the young potential #1 defensemen, but I don't know if that's realistic to expect given I don't know how many teams are willing to trade a guy like that.

I agree. Faulk is good, no doubt, but just like Duchene, always seems to leave me wanting more.

An upgrade on Barrie? Yep. Worth it for the Duchene to Lindholm downgrade? Nah.

I do like Bjugstad though. I'd like for them to be exploring that option.

 

[tigervixxxen]

The only way we are getting a #1 is if Z becomes one or we tank in the right year. Imo.

 

[RockLobster]

The only way we are getting a #1 is if Z becomes one or we tank in the right year. Imo.

Not if we trade Bigras, Greer, and Beaudin in a package for one!