Rumor: Duchene for...? Part III

[dahrougem2]

I am not saying every center needs to be big. What I am saying is that you need at least one bigger center with 2 way ability to make it through the playoffs and realistically compete for the cup. It has been since Datsyuk since a team without one has won the cup... almost a decade ago and Datsyuks are rare.

Not that I disagree with your point, because I would love a big, responsible two-way centre (legit two way, not this fake we call Soderberg), but since Datsyuk only 4 different teams have won the Stanley Cup, and one of those teams had two of the best players of their generation on it.

I think I'd rather wait for the next 5+ cups to be won, and look at the trend from Datsyuk onward instead of looking at it right now due to the sheer dominance of teams like Chicago, L.A., and Pittsburgh

 

[RockLobster]

How is it a straw man? He said:



Are you trying to say that the height of one of your centers has more to do with success in the playoffs than depth, support, good coaching, good draft picks, and savvy managerial moves? If anybody is being the straw man, it's him. Just because those teams happened to have one of the players he's talking about, doesn't mean that was one the main reasons they won. That's all I'm trying to say.

And in that quote he clearly said "I'm not saying all the centers need to be 6'3" +"

And then you make this rebuttal:

Good thing then that we have Colborne. He's 6'5", so he's an elite defensive center, right?

And then you followed it up with the typical HF Avs drooling about their prized prospect in saying "I just think it's ridiculous to paint Jost into a corner by saying he can't be elite defensively because of his size..." when Henchy didn't say that. He merely pointed out that it's a rarity for a defensively elite center to be under 6'0--which history tells us is an accurate statement. He's doing the right thing by withholding judgment on Jost's NHL defensive acumen until he, you know, actually faces NHL competition. And as far as Chychrun goes (since you brought him up in talking about Henchy), I would've preferred him to Jost too, but that's because I think the Avs need a defensive prospect like him in the system, and that he shouldn't have fallen as far as he did. My saying that doesn't mean I hate Jost or am unhappy with his pick, but it's saying I would have preferred someone else.

You're just taking his words and twisting them because he didn't effuse enough praise unto Jost. It's frigging ridiculous.

 

[henchman21]

Are you trying to say that the height of one of your centers has more to do with success in the playoffs than depth, support, good coaching, good draft picks, and savvy managerial moves? If anybody is being the straw man, it's him. Just because those teams happened to have one of the players he's talking about, doesn't mean that was one the main reasons they won. That's all I'm trying to say.

The size and two way ability in the top 6 are very important factors in winning a cup. It is harder for smaller centers to be elite defensively... I'm not saying it is the key #1 thing, I am saying it is absurdly difficult to build a Cup winning team without a bigger 2 way center in the top 6. Detroit was the last one.

Not that I disagree with your point, because I would love a big, responsible two-way centre (legit two way, not this fake we call Soderberg), but since Datsyuk only 4 different teams have won the Stanley Cup, and one of those teams had two of the best players of their generation on it.

I think I'd rather wait for the next 5+ cups to be won, and look at the trend from Datsyuk onward instead of looking at it right now due to the sheer dominance of teams like Chicago, L.A., and Pittsburgh

How about before Detroit... the last was the 2001 Avs with Sakic and Forsberg (and Drury). Two of the top 10 players in the league at the time. That is just 2 cups out of the last ~20.

 

[dahrougem2]

The size and two way ability in the top 6 are very important factors in winning a cup. It is harder for smaller centers to be elite defensively... I'm not saying it is the key #1 thing, I am saying it is absurdly difficult to build a Cup winning team without a bigger 2 way center in the top 6. Detroit was the last one.



How about before Detroit... the last was the 2001 Avs with Sakic and Forsberg (and Drury). Two of the top 10 players in the league at the time. That is just 2 cups out of the last ~20.

The reason I say that is different era's. As far as I'm concerned, pre-and-post lockout NHL may as well be different sports

 

[henchman21]

The reason I say that is different era's. As far as I'm concerned, pre-and-post lockout NHL may as well be different sports

Which is fair... still 1 cup post lockout doesn't look good for the smaller center crowd. Detroit is the only one to pull it off and it required a player of Datsyuk's caliber. Which, IMO is expecting WAY too much of Jost.

 

[returnofthemack29]

The size and two way ability in the top 6 are very important factors in winning a cup. It is harder for smaller centers to be elite defensively... I'm not saying it is the key #1 thing, I am saying it is absurdly difficult to build a Cup winning team without a bigger 2 way center in the top 6. Detroit was the last one.



How about before Detroit... the last was the 2001 Avs with Sakic and Forsberg (and Drury). Two of the top 10 players in the league at the time. That is just 2 cups out of the last ~20.

Mack is 6'1" 210. That's pretty big, he's strong, and he's shown major strides in his defensive game this year. Who's to say Mack can't develop into that guy or close to that guy for us? I just think it's absolutely ludicrous to say that's the only way you can win a cup in the NHL. Looking throughout NHL history has shown that you can win in many different ways. Just because two of the most well built teams in hockey history have been dominating all the Stanley Cups lately and they happen to have a couple similar players, doesn't mean that all we're missing to compete for the cup is that similar player.

We have a ton of other, way more important things to worry about in order to compete for the cup, then to find a defensively elite center. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. But that's like saying I'd prefer bigger wheels on my Ferrari. First you need to get the Ferrari.

 

[CobraAcesS]

So the only two players that we have who meet the requirements are not even playing center for us on a regular basis, and that's Grigorenko and Rantanen.

Does not look good, unless we luckout on Nolan Patrick

 

[henchman21]

Mack is 6'1" 210. That's pretty big, he's strong, and he's shown major strides in his defensive game this year. Who's to say Mack can't develop into that guy or close to that guy for us? I just think it's absolutely ludicrous to say that's the only way you can win a cup in the NHL. Looking throughout NHL history has shown that you can win in many different ways. Just because two of the most well built teams in hockey history have been dominating all the Stanley Cups lately and they happen to have a couple similar players, doesn't mean that all we're missing to compete for the cup is that similar player.

We have a ton of other, way more important things to worry about in order to compete for the cup, then to find a defensively elite center. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt. But that's like saying I'd prefer bigger wheels on my Ferrari. First you need to get the Ferrari.

I'm not saying you can't win with smaller players. I'm not saying you can't win with just smaller centers. I am saying that it is very difficult to do and requires some special talents.

MacK could develop into that guy. I do believe he becomes a good #1C at the very least, but he needs to take large steps forward in the defensive area (he can't just be good, he has to be great and capable of shutting down the Kopis of the world in a 7 game series) and still be a force offensively. It is a big bet, and it is the bet the Avs are making. It is risky to do without a backup plan, but a worthy one. If things work out with this team competing, it will be MacK becoming that guy.

I wouldn't agree about a ton of other things to worry about... the fact that the Avs top 2 centers play a similar game based around speed and are not great defensively is a big part of the issues the Avs are having right now.

 

[returnofthemack29]

I'm not saying you can't with with smaller player. I'm not saying you can't win with just smaller centers. I am saying that it is very difficult to do and requires some special talents.

MacK could develop into that guy. I do believe he becomes a good #1C at the very least, but he needs to take large steps forward in the defensive area (he can't just be good, he has to be great and capable of shutting down the Kopis of the world in a 7 game series) and still be a force offensively. It is a big bet, and it is the bet the Avs are making. It is risky to do without a backup plan, but a worthy one. If things work out with this team competing, it will be MacK becoming that guy.

I wouldn't agree about a ton of other things to worry about... the fact that the Avs top 2 centers play a similar game based around speed and are not great defensively is a big part of the issues the Avs are having right now.

That's not even close to the biggest part. Not even remotely close. If you want the biggest part of the issues, it's pretty much the fact that >75% of our roster either doesn't belong in the NHL, the role they're given, or the systems we're running.

 

[henchman21]

I said big, not biggest... IMO having Duchene swapped out for ROR would make this team a lot better. Not that ROR is better or worse than Duchene, but the fit and style would allow MacK to take more offensive draws and other team's top lines would have to face ROR. I get the trade needed to be made (and I still support it), but not having a shutdown top 6 center is really hurting this team. MacK is having to play a role he really isn't capable of right now.

 

[dahrougem2]

I said big, not biggest... IMO having Duchene swapped out for ROR would make this team a lot better. Not that ROR is better or worse than Duchene, but the fit and style would allow MacK to take more offensive draws and other team's top lines would have to face ROR. I get the trade needed to be made (and I still support it), but not having a shutdown top 6 center is really hurting this team. MacK is having to play a role he really isn't capable of right now.

Not to rehash it because what's done is done, but this team with ROR instead of Duchene on it would look quite interesting. Do we see a Soderberg signing? Probably not, especially not at his cap hit if he'd just be playing 3C for the duration of it.

 

[henchman21]

Not to rehash it because what's done is done, but this team with ROR instead of Duchene on it would look quite interesting. Do we see a Soderberg signing? Probably not, especially not at his cap hit if he'd just be playing 3C for the duration of it.

I'm not trying to re-hash it, just using ROR as an illustration of how the dynamic would change (though I would even have some doubts with ROR as the #2). The Avs do have to move forward, and they do have to find a way to get the centers they need.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I said big, not biggest... IMO having Duchene swapped out for ROR would make this team a lot better. Not that ROR is better or worse than Duchene, but the fit and style would allow MacK to take more offensive draws and other team's top lines would have to face ROR. I get the trade needed to be made (and I still support it), but not having a shutdown top 6 center is really hurting this team. MacK is having to play a role he really isn't capable of right now.

Well, you also have a huge boon in the type of chemistry that Landeskog and ROR had as well.

Why do you feel like two top six centers with speed is the issue, if the biggest reasons for Pit's cup win is suppose to be a game based around speed?

I think the issue seems more around our big slow stupid players like Colborne, Iginla, and FB (this season). Then EJ playing like he thinks he is Erik Karlsson, and being a couple of bounces the other direction from getting a hell of a lot more flack. Add to that Barrie's combined offensive and defensive issues, along with MacKinnon leaving his brain hat home for the first 10 games of the season.

That's two of your top four guys playing like garbage, your number one making some huge mistakes, and then a bunch of depth players who can't compete their way out of a wet paper bag.

I get the sentiment somewhat, but I feel like having two speedy centers is more of a fine tuning issue than some of the other crap that is at the top of the list for issues surrounding the team. Maybe if they were both softer players, but neither of Duchy or MacK are soft down low along the boards. They are not really your average speed first types of players IMO.

 

[henchman21]

I'm not saying speed is an issue... you can't really have too much speed. My point with that is that MacK and Duchene require similar strategies to shutdown AND they are not great defensively. They are not entirely similar, but they are not that different. If MacK uses his physical tools more and becomes great/elite defensively, the issue is solved. That is on MacK though, nobody else.

The Pens also have Malkin.... Malkin isn't the speediest of players (by no means is he slow), but he is big and can play a really, really good 2 way game.

 

[Foppberg]

I think give us more quality depth, our core players won't look nearly as bad. Once/if Mikko, Jost, Compher, Greer, Bigras, Zadorov, etc solidify themselves then we're in much better shape

 

[CobraAcesS]

I'm not saying speed is an issue... you can't really have too much speed. My point with that is that MacK and Duchene require similar strategies to shutdown AND they are not great defensively. They are not entirely similar, but they are not that different. If MacK uses his physical tools more and becomes great/elite defensively, the issue is solved. That is on MacK though, nobody else.

The Pens also have Malkin.... Malkin isn't the speediest of players (by no means is he slow), but he is big and can play a really, really good 2 way game.

I just think is down there on the list of issues, that's more like something you look to solve the way Nashville has looked to balance their lineup, yet were fairly competitive in most other aspects.

I guess it's just really sad to think we might have none of what we need to contend within the next 3-5 years. The two way center with size, and the big two way #1 are the two hardest things to obtain.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I haven't gotten through all of this thread yet, y'all have been busy. But you want more higher end options, particularly at D, you need more picks. Other than the EJ deal, not getting another first ever is not acceptable. The teams that are able to build a good back end through picks have done it having multiple firsts, then they are always able to pick a defenseman every year. Maybe not a top 10 sort it a lot of first rounders even taken in the back half have turned out well.

 

[detrude]

I'm never and probably never will be fully onboard with "tanking" but I'd certainly be okay with a re-tool and letting some kids play the season out. They'll play their hearts out and who knows maybe even perform better than the team is right now. If they get worse we end up with a great pick in the draft.

If we can get a guy like Hanifin or a package of Barzal+HoSang/MDC/CDH for Duchene and then trade Tyson Barrie for a similar type of futures package I'd probably be all over it right now.

Let Rene play inflated minutes with Mackinnon to get a decent return on him at the deadline. Let Toots play with EJ (just limit his minutes a little so he doesn't exhaust himself by the deadline) and we might get a decent return on him. If we're headed in that direction Iggy will absolutely waive later in the season and even though he sucks we'd get some type of pick from him simply because of who he is.

That could turn into a lot of quality youth/picks. Would legitimately be buying picks which as you can see (Toronto/AZ) is a fantastic way to build your youth. The right way IMO. We all see each other questioning Sakic and his methods all the time but if he could turn two offseason UFA signings in Bourque and Tyutin into picks that would turn me into much more of a believer in him.

We don't need to "blow it up" or trade our entire core. But if management accepts what this season is earlier than later they can make this season a lot more valuable than it's on pace to become.

This is exactly where I'm at right now. A quarter of the season down and we're tied for last in the conference, 6 points back of a WC spot. We have a roster full of players who don't fit the system, who were kept or brought in to play for a coach who is no longer here. And then there's the looming threat of trading core players if the team doesn't have forward progress. We might as well be proactive here and try to recoup some assets while hammering the system into the players who will be here long-term, then totally tear it down at the deadline.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Which is fair... still 1 cup post lockout doesn't look good for the smaller center crowd. Detroit is the only one to pull it off and it required a player of Datsyuk's caliber. Which, IMO is expecting WAY too much of Jost.

datsyuk AND zetterberg. zetterberg was even better 08 and 09.

and iirc, datsyuk was playing on zetterberg's wing back in 08.

 

[henchman21]

datsyuk AND zetterberg. zetterberg was even better 08 and 09.

and iirc, datsyuk was playing on zetterberg's wing back in 08.

You could be right on that, though I recall them being split up a lot during that run (probably less so in the playoffs). Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk were great in their primes.

 

[InjuredChoker]

You could be right on that, though I recall them being split up a lot during that run (probably less so in the playoffs). Both Zetterberg and Datsyuk were great in their primes.

2009 they were split up more, as datsyuk and hossa were hobbling with injuries and babcock tried to come up with effective combos. 2008 they were mostly together iirc, with holmstrom as the third wheel. franzen and flippula formed the 2nd line.

 

[kchan9]

Rnh for Barrie right now.. Would you guys do it?

 

[Avs44]

Rnh for Barrie right now.. Would you guys do it?

Nope. If people think Barrie has been bad, they should watch an Edmonton Oilers game. There is a common theme around HFboards to overstate how good a player is defensively when they are not putting up points, it's like they assume that the player must be compensating in some way, and that applies to RNH. He's decent defensively, above average, but anything special? Not really. And he's struggling badly offensively. As they've given him more responsibility, his offensive production and abilities have declined.


Not that I would cling to Barrie either, but I would look for so many other returns first. Adding an underproducing, undersized, good but nothing special defensively forward who is making 6 million a year is just adding to the problems on this club right now.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Right now? No.


If we have a need for a Center this summer(In other words if we trade Duchene) then maybe.


I'd rather target a different Center(Boone Jenner, Nick Bjugstad, are a couple), but I like RNH and his two way game.

 

[lonelybadger]

Isn't Nolan Patrick already 6 foot 3?

MacKinnon has taken strides to become better defensively but if the avs are trying to add to the top six I'd much rather it be saad. Keep MacKinnon and duchene as the 1-2 and then surround them with saad, lando, rantanen, and jost and they would fair much better.

Yes, larger centers like Kopitar have helped win a few cups lately but the real backbone of the Kings and blackhawks is their overall depth, quality goaltending and #1 d men. Doughty, Keith, hammer, were more important than having a large center.

There are a lot of things holding the avs back from making the playoffs, let alone winning the Stanley cup, and the fact their top 2 centers are not 6'3 230+ is the least of my worries.