Rumor: Duchene for...? Part III

[AvsGuy]

People are still cheesed about the Jost pick? He's gonna look like a steal in a few years time

 

[henchman21]

People are still cheesed about the Jost pick? He's gonna look like a steal in a few years time

It isn't anything about Jost. He is a great young prospect and will be a good NHL player. What does he bring that the Avs don't already have though? I've seen lofty comparisons, but I've plenty of those throughout the year on a number of players. Jost is a smaller, dynamic offensive center who is a pretty good defensive player (as he moves up we will see how that translates).

 

[Foppberg]

People are still cheesed about the Jost pick? He's gonna look like a steal in a few years time

Agreed. I'm arguably more excited for him than I am about Mikko.

 

[returnofthemack29]

It isn't anything about Jost. He is a great young prospect and will be a good NHL player. What does he bring that the Avs don't already have though? I've seen lofty comparisons, but I've plenty of those throughout the year on a number of players. Jost is a smaller, dynamic offensive center who is a pretty good defensive player (as he moves up we will see how that translates).

He's not a pretty good defensive player. He's already a good defender with potential for much more. His attention to detail, tenacity, passing, work ethic, IQ, faceoff domination, and leadership is what sets him apart. He absolutely brings what the Avs lack in spades.

 

[CobraAcesS]

He's not a pretty good defensive player. He's already a good defender with potential for much more. His attention to detail, tenacity, passing, work ethic, IQ, faceoff domination, and leadership is what sets him apart. He absolutely brings what the Avs lack in spades.

That and I'm really hoping he can be the cog that finally makes Landeskog work with another core player again. Similar to how Stastny made MacKinnon and Landeskog work.

An intelligent puck distributor with a strong two way game is exactly what you need centering Landeskog. That way they can take on top competition the way Landy was meant to.

 

[henchman21]

He's not a pretty good defensive player. He's already a good defender with potential for much more. His attention to detail, tenacity, passing, work ethic, IQ, faceoff domination, and leadership is what sets him apart. He absolutely brings what the Avs lack in spades.

I've been following prospects for over a decade. A number of players get those scouting reports. Duchene was called the most complete player in his draft and that he oozed hockey sense. It doesn't always translate.

Name me an elite defensive center 5'11" or shorter. They are very rare for a reason. Without elite defense, Jost is a Duchene replacement. I hope he proves me wrong here.

 

[Foppberg]

The thing that excites me the most about Jost is his IQ and work ethic. Too many of our core pieces are reliant on their physical gifts vs using smarts. Need more Josts, Mikkos, less Duchenes, Barries, etc

 

[AslanRH]

I'm sticking to Jost being our new Drury and I won't let any kind of realism get in the way for at least another couple years.

 

[returnofthemack29]

I've been following prospects for over a decade. A number of players get those scouting reports. Duchene was called the most complete player in his draft and that he oozed hockey sense. It doesn't always translate.

Name me an elite defensive center 5'11" or shorter. They are very rare for a reason. Without elite defense, Jost is a Duchene replacement. I hope he proves me wrong here.

So you're saying 18 year old Jost can't grown an inch or two? Playing defense has a lot more to do with effort and attention to detail than size anyway. Bergeron is 6'1", ROR is 6'0", Datsyuk 5'11", Zetterberg 6'0", Mike Richards 5'11", Ondrej Palat 5'11".

Don't get me wrong, size helps, but it's definitely not the first thing I look for to see if a player is a good defender.

 

[Foppberg]

Add Giroux to that list also.

 

[henchman21]

So you're saying 18 year old Jost can't grown an inch or two? Playing defense has a lot more to do with effort and attention to detail than size anyway. Bergeron is 6'1", ROR is 6'0", Datsyuk 5'11", Zetterberg 6'0", Mike Richards 5'11", Ondrej Palat 5'11".

Don't get me wrong, size helps, but it's definitely not the first thing I look for to see if a player is a good defender.

ROR is 6'1" and a couple of those aren't centers. Richards broke down early and was in a bit different timeframe at his peak... also won behind one of the best centers in the game where he didn't have to carry the load. Datsyuk was just a gem... asking Jost to become Datsyuk is crazy.

Size helps a lot at center in the NHL.

 

[RockLobster]

So you're saying 18 year old Jost can't grown an inch or two? Playing defense has a lot more to do with effort and attention to detail than size anyway. Bergeron is 6'1", ROR is 6'0", Datsyuk 5'11", Zetterberg 6'0", Mike Richards 5'11", Ondrej Palat 5'11".

Don't get me wrong, size helps, but it's definitely not the first thing I look for to see if a player is a good defender.

He didn't say anything of the sort, quit resorting to moving the goal posts.

Pointing out that "elite defensive centers" are rarely under 6'0 doesn't mean he cares only for size, or that an 18 year old can't grow another inch or two. Henchy has been pretty steadfast in his belief of how the team should be built, and has provided (in a number of threads/posts) substantive reasoning for that belief.

 

[CobraAcesS]

ROR is 6'1" and a couple of those aren't centers. Richards broke down early and was in a bit different timeframe at his peak... also won behind one of the best centers in the game where he didn't have to carry the load. Datsyuk was just a gem... asking Jost to become Datsyuk is crazy.

Size helps a lot at center in the NHL.

Hopefully he grows a touch lol, and not every defensive center has Landeskog next to them either. I do think Jost could be a bit of a Stastny type, especially with a strong defensive winger.

 

[returnofthemack29]

ROR is 6'1" and a couple of those aren't centers. Richards broke down early and was in a bit different timeframe at his peak... also won behind one of the best centers in the game where he didn't have to carry the load. Datsyuk was just a gem... asking Jost to become Datsyuk is crazy.

Size helps a lot at center in the NHL.

It does, I even said that in the end, but it's not the end all be all that you're trying to make it out to be. It's not like Jost is some midget. He's keeping up physically with men in college no problem. And there are examples of players areound his height being elite defensively. It's rare, but not that rare. There are a ton more around that height that might not be elite defensively, but are more than solid in their own end. ROR might be 6'1" now, but I don't think he was even 6'0" when he was drafted.

 

[henchman21]

I have preached for years that teams typically need a bigger 2 way center in their top 6 to compete for a cup. The results speak for themselves on that. Rarely does a team win without one. I'm not saying all the centers need to be 6'3" +, but I do think you need one with size that can play defense to win in the playoffs.

Right now Jost is good defensively... I will wait to crown him as a great defensive NHL center though. That is against the very best and biggest in the world. Very few smaller centers can pull that off.

Even if Jost ends up 6' that won't change my opinion. 6'1" is typically where a cutoff is and that is for the very elite defensive players. 6'3" is more of the magic number.

This is about competing for a cup though... not just being a be happy to be in the playoffs sort of team. Those can be built with smaller centers.

 

[Foppberg]

Duchene for Couts / Barrie for RNH. Boom we're set!

 

[returnofthemack29]

He didn't say anything of the sort, quit resorting to moving the goal posts.

Pointing out that "elite defensive centers" are rarely under 6'0 doesn't mean he cares only for size, or that an 18 year old can't grow another inch or two. Henchy has been pretty steadfast in his belief of how the team should be built, and has provided (in a number of threads/posts) substantive reasoning for that belief.

Good thing then that we have Colborne. He's 6'5", so he's an elite defensive center, right? I just think it's ridiculous to paint Jost into a corner by saying he can't be elite defensively because of his size and we should have picked Chychrun instead. We haven't even seen him play in an Avs uni yet and he has all the tools to be an elite two-way guy. Will he reach that? Who knows, but at least I'm willing to give him a chance to see. Nothing he's done so far this year has lead me to make any other conclusions.

 

[RockLobster]

Good thing then that we have Colborne. He's 6'5", so he's an elite defensive center, right? I just think it's ridiculous to paint Jost into a corner by saying he can't be elite defensively because of his size and we should have picked Chychrun instead. We haven't even seen him play in an Avs uni yet and he has all the tools to be an elite two-way guy. Will he reach that? Who knows, but at least I'm willing to give him a chance to see. Nothing he's done so far this year has lead me to make any other conclusions.

Yeah, I stopped reading right there because it's clear that you didn't comprehend what Henchy is saying.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I have preached for years that teams typically need a bigger 2 way center in their top 6 to compete for a cup. The results speak for themselves on that. Rarely does a team win without one. I'm not saying all the centers need to be 6'3" +, but I do think you need one with size that can play defense to win in the playoffs.

Right now Jost is good defensively... I will wait to crown him as a great defensive NHL center though. That is against the very best and biggest in the world. Very few smaller centers can pull that off.

Even if Jost ends up 6' that won't change my opinion. 6'1" is typically where a cutoff is and that is for the very elite defensive players. 6'3" is more of the magic number.

This is about competing for a cup though... not just being a be happy to be in the playoffs sort of team. Those can be built with smaller centers.

I wonder if Pavelski might be a good example, and I don't really think you can use O'Reilly's size as an example of why hes a good two-way player.

Also, why do you feel like 6'3 is the number when neither Bergeron or Toews are 6'3"? Hell for two of Chicago's cups their biggest hole was their #2 center position.

 

[returnofthemack29]

Yeah, I stopped reading right there because it's clear that you didn't comprehend what Henchy is saying.

Oh I understood, just a ridiculous response to an equally ridiculous statement. Just because two of the most dominant teams full of depth, support, good coaching, good draft picks, and savvy managerial moves over the past decade in Chicago and Los Angeles have that certain type of player doesn't mean that's the only way they're able to win. All those things have way more to do with success than if your 2C is an inch taller.

 

[RockLobster]

Oh I understood, just a ridiculous response to an equally ridiculous statement. Just because two of the most dominant teams full of depth, support, good coaching, good draft picks, and savvy managerial moves over the past decade in Chicago and Los Angeles have that certain type of player doesn't mean that's the only way they're able to win. All those things have way more to do with success than if your 2C is an inch taller.

No, you didn't. You've done a masterful job missing his point and making really weird (and incorrect) assumptions about his feelings on Jost. As I said before, he has his belief, and has provided substantive reasoning for that belief. You have resorted to utilizing a straw man fallacy.

As for the rest of your post, after the bolded...

(and I'm glad I didn't, it saved me some time)

 

[returnofthemack29]

No, you didn't.

Haha I think I know what I understand and what I don't. Thanks for the "lesson" though champ.

 

[RockLobster]

Haha I think I know what I understand and what I don't. Thanks for the "lesson" though champ.

Well, you're clearly showing that you don't/didn't understand what he had said, thus causing you to resort to straw man.

 

[returnofthemack29]

Well, you're clearly showing that you don't/didn't understand what he had said, thus causing you to resort to straw man.

How is it a straw man? He said:

I have preached for years that teams typically need a bigger 2 way center in their top 6 to compete for a cup. The results speak for themselves on that. Rarely does a team win without one. I'm not saying all the centers need to be 6'3" +, but I do think you need one with size that can play defense to win in the playoffs.

Are you trying to say that the height of one of your centers has more to do with success in the playoffs than depth, support, good coaching, good draft picks, and savvy managerial moves? If anybody is being the straw man, it's him. Just because those teams happened to have one of the players he's talking about, doesn't mean that was one the main reasons they won. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[henchman21]

Good thing then that we have Colborne. He's 6'5", so he's an elite defensive center, right? I just think it's ridiculous to paint Jost into a corner by saying he can't be elite defensively because of his size and we should have picked Chychrun instead. We haven't even seen him play in an Avs uni yet and he has all the tools to be an elite two-way guy. Will he reach that? Who knows, but at least I'm willing to give him a chance to see. Nothing he's done so far this year has lead me to make any other conclusions.

Yeah because I of all people believe Colborne is elite defensively... being big doesn't make a player great defensively, but average size (6'1") might be the prerequisite to being great defensively for all but the very elite.

I'm not saying Jost can't be, I'm saying it is an unreasonable expectation of him and very risky to bet on.

I wonder if Pavelski might be a good example, and I don't really think you can use O'Reilly's size as an example of why hes a good two-way player.

Also, why do you feel like 6'3 is the number when neither Bergeron or Toews are 6'3"? Hell for two of Chicago's cups their biggest hole was their #2 center position.

Pavelski doesn't play center all the time in San Jose. Along with that they Jumbo Joe and Couture along side there. Couture isn't big, but he isn't small either.

6'3" is the magic number to me because as players get smaller, they tend to have to be more and more elite. Toews and Bergeron are the very definition of elite defensively in the NHL right now, because of how good they are, they can get away with being a bit smaller than the Kopitar and Malkins of the world. 6'3" gives a bit more leverage for players who are not quite as good in that area. They get a bit more strength leeway.

Think about is this way... going through the Western Conference for the Avs is going to mean going through some combination of Toews, Kopitar, Thornton, RyJo, Scheifele, Getzlaf, McDavid (and Draisaitl), Seguin/Spezza, and Monahan... not a single one is under 6'1" most are 6'2"+

I am not saying every center needs to be big. What I am saying is that you need at least one bigger center with 2 way ability to make it through the playoffs and realistically compete for the cup. It has been since Datsyuk since a team without one has won the cup... almost a decade ago and Datsyuks are rare.