Dubas needs to own up to some of these issues

[The CyNick]

Lol, thats pretty embarrassing.

And not to mention the idea that JT was a “slam dunk” doesn’t hold up to theeast bit of scrutiny. I mean aside from tangible proof from the mouth of the player himself and journalist reports of the Leafs sales pitch playing a major role in the signing, Toronto has historically been horrible at attracting big names free agents (Childhood Leafs fan Stamkos rejecting the offer just a season prior)

It's all about logic. If you really believe Dubas played more than 1% of a role in his decision, that's cool. I don't believe it. I think childhood dream, family situation, Leafs young core, Babs, money all played much larger factors than our young GM.

As for Stamkos he never seriously considered the Leafs. Talk to anyone who knows him personally. He was always staying in Tampa unless the Leafs came at him with something crazy like a max offer.

 

[Kiwi]

Yeah, average is a good way of putting it.

Honestly if Lou had kept acting as he did during his first year with the team I’d be fine if they had kept him on, but unfortunately he didn’t quite keep it up.

I’d say he was ultimately the right person for that transitionary phase of the team to get the early stages of the rebuild out of the way but not the right fot for the team looking for the next step.

Lou had a ruthless quality that's excellent when you pulling things down, getting rid of bad contracts and guys that weren't good in the room certainly helped us build what we have now

He also gave out some nice contracts like Rielly and Kadri but once we got over the initial building his flaws certainly started to show

I think he overvalued a certain type of player contractually and its going to hurt us in some prime cup competing years, I don't dislike the job he did but we certainly needed a different outlook

 

[The CyNick]

The media, almost every draft, does this guy vs this guy for the #1 pick. No NHL team was going to take Laine there. That's ridiculous to even speculate on. And from what I remember, our fanbase was split on Marner or Strome with a small percentage wanting Hanifin. And I'll gladly discredit you, you're the most arrogant person on our board. Oh, by the way, strome has 35 points in 36 games since going to Chicago. Hes 21. But you knew he'd be a bust.

So you're saying Bobby Mac is a liar? I'm guessing you workshop say that to his face. But continuing being bold.

More than a small percentage wanted hanifin. Must people thought Strome would be gone. Most people felt it was Marner vs Hanifin, but I would say a good percentage were also in favor of trading down for another D.

I'm aware of Strome's play. He's been put in a nice spot and is desperate to stay in the league and the Hawks are on a heater. If he's PPG over 80 games, then he'll have proven his detractors wrong. My guess is he'll take a step back sooner than later.

 

[The CyNick]

Louis was great until he got in his own way. Trading those 2nd rounders for 4th line centers was baffling.

Almost like giving away mid round picks to make up for bad backup goalie decisions. Or giving up 1sts and 2nds to fill holes that didn't exist.

 

[The CyNick]

Lou had a ruthless quality that's excellent when you pulling things down, getting rid of bad contracts and guys that weren't good in the room certainly helped us build what we have now

He also gave out some nice contracts like Rielly and Kadri but once we got over the initial building his flaws certainly started to show

I think he overvalued a certain type of player contractually and its going to hurt us in some prime cup competing years, I don't dislike the job he did but we certainly needed a different outlook

Lou is ahead of Dubas today.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Zaitsev and Marleau contracts are awful and I don’t know how anyone can argue otherwise. Complain about the Matthews and Nylander contracts all you want, but at least they’re elite scorers and are locked in during their primes. Zaitsev is barely a #4 most of the time, and Marleau has slowed down considerably. Both of those contracts will cause headaches next year, and Zaitsev for years after if he isn’t moved within the next half-year.

 

[The CyNick]

Zaitsev and Marleau contracts are awful and I don’t know how anyone can argue otherwise. Complain about the Matthews and Nylander contracts all you want, but at least they’re elite scorers and are locked in during their primes. Zaitsev is barely a #4 most of the time, and Marleau has slowed down considerably. Both of those contracts will cause headaches next year, and Zaitsev for years after if he isn’t moved within the next half-year.

Talk to Matthews and Marner about Marleau. Ensuring Matthews and Marner have a mentor who can still play at a fairly high level is more important than a couple bucks on the cap for one year.

Dubas cost the team way more money with his horrible negotiating tactics.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

So you're saying Bobby Mac is a liar? I'm guessing you workshop say that to his face. But continuing being bold.

More than a small percentage wanted hanifin. Must people thought Strome would be gone. Most people felt it was Marner vs Hanifin, but I would say a good percentage were also in favor of trading down for another D.

I'm aware of Strome's play. He's been put in a nice spot and is desperate to stay in the league and the Hawks are on a heater. If he's PPG over 80 games, then he'll have proven his detractors wrong. My guess is he'll take a step back sooner than later.

He'll take a step back. How convenient for you. I dont care what Bobby Mac says; nobody was going to take Laine there. Jesus, are you really trying to say that the first overall pick wasnt a slam dunk?

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Almost like giving away mid round picks to make up for bad backup goalie decisions. Or giving up 1sts and 2nds to fill holes that didn't exist.

Be more specific. This franchise has been giving away picks for decades.

 

[Dale Gribble]

Dumbas overpaid for Tavares, then overpaid Nylander because Nylander held out and knew the others (Matthews and Marner) were going to get "PAID", then overpaid Matthews because he overpaid Tavares (Matthews was never going to make less than Tavares who at best is the 3rd best forward on the team). Dumbas will most likely overpay Marner... Even with the Cap going up, the Leafs will be in Cap hell shortly.

 

[ottomaddox]

New Rant

Our 4th line is a heaping pile of horse crap. Dubas do something please.

 

[Nalens Oga]

The 4th line has the potential to be pretty good I'd think if you have Brown-Centre-Ennis. I'm not a big fan of Gauthier/Lindholm but they'll do the job.

Problem is that he has Brown playing too high up the lineup and he keeps playing Marleau. It should be Johnsson and Moore in those spots.

 

[Dale Gribble]

The 4th line has the potential to be pretty good I'd think if you have Brown-Centre-Ennis. I'm not a big fan of Gauthier/Lindholm but they'll do the job.

Problem is that he has Brown playing too high up the lineup and he keeps playing Marleau. It should be Johnsson and Moore in those spots.

Isn't that on Babcock and not Dubas though ?

 

[Durrr]

Because I know the history of the team.

Dubas and Hunter were co-GMs. Hunter was running the draft, Dubas was handling trades. This was widely reported (look it up if you don't believe me). Dubas was allowed to make one key trade and then almost immediately Lou was brought in. Hunter continued to keep his drafting position and with Lou's blessing brought in several cornerstone pieces. Dubas was relegated to the Marlies where he had no control over Leafs player personnel decisions.

There you go again, putting the subjective negative spin on events to tell your chosen story. Most people without a narrative would never look at Dubas running the Marlies as being "regulated", when hes literally running the big club a year later.


That's enough for me, you're wayyy to biased to have a normal discussion with.

 

[The CyNick]

There you go again, putting the subjective negative spin on events to tell your chosen story. Most people without a narrative would never look at Dubas running the Marlies as being "regulated", when hes literally running the big club a year later.


That's enough for me, you're wayyy to biased to have a normal discussion with.

If you were to rank importance of jobs within hockey ops for a team would you say making NHL trades is more important than managing the AHL group where you have no FINAL say on the players under NHL contracts?

You can be relegated and then move up at a later date. Doesnt change the fact that the relegation happened.

Someone at MLSE clearly felt Dubas needed someone more experienced to drive the bus after the Kessel trade. Enter Lou. But Shanny clearly felt Dubas was the future, so he ultimately picked him over Lou. So that's either credit to Dubas or an indictment on Shanny. Only time will tell which.

Right now we know the Leafs are trending to have an identical season to last year while Lou took a tire fire, made a few key moves and now they're trending higher than the Leafs. To me its not a good look for the young GM.

 

[Menzinger]

If you were to rank importance of jobs within hockey ops for a team would you say making NHL trades is more important than managing the AHL group where you have no FINAL say on the players under NHL contracts?

You can be relegated and then move up at a later date. Doesnt change the fact that the relegation happened.

Someone at MLSE clearly felt Dubas needed someone more experienced to drive the bus after the Kessel trade. Enter Lou. But Shanny clearly felt Dubas was the future, so he ultimately picked him over Lou. So that's either credit to Dubas or an indictment on Shanny. Only time will tell which.

Right now we know the Leafs are trending to have an identical season to last year while Lou took a tire fire, made a few key moves and now they're trending higher than the Leafs. To me its not a good look for the young GM.

You’d think somebody with as much hockey knowledge as youclaim to have would be able to realize the Leafs record last season was in part due to a higher number of shootout wins, while this season the Leafs have been winning games before that was even necessary (ie not having to rely on a glorified coin flip)

Anybody with even a basic level of understanding of the game would acknowledge that a team that added players of Tavares or Muzzin’s caliber was improved. Then again, you were trying to claim that Lou was responsible for Marner or had any major input in the deceison to draft Matthews lol

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Because I know the history of the team.

Dubas and Hunter were co-GMs. Hunter was running the draft, Dubas was handling trades. This was widely reported (look it up if you don't believe me). Dubas was allowed to make one key trade and then almost immediately Lou was brought in. Hunter continued to keep his drafting position and with Lou's blessing brought in several cornerstone pieces. Dubas was relegated to the Marlies where he had no control over Leafs player personnel decisions.

Are you trying to say that Dubas trading down where we selected Dermott while also acquiring more picks (Bracco and Dzierkals) instead of just taking Konecny got him demoted to GM of the AHL club?

Seriously? How can you interpret that as a terrible job? He did the same thing this year and Sandin is looking like a fantastic pick while again, acquiring more picks. It remains to be seen how those picks will turn out in 3-4 years.

Lou was brought in as a mentor so he can learn everything he can about being an NHL Gm. That was most likely Shanny's plan all along.

 

[The CyNick]

He'll take a step back. How convenient for you. I dont care what Bobby Mac says; nobody was going to take Laine there. Jesus, are you really trying to say that the first overall pick wasnt a slam dunk?

I don't think anyone will buy into my own network of people I talk to.

Bobby is well respected in all hockey circles, so the info can be validated from him. If you want to call his reporting BS because it doesn't fit your narrative n a random discussion forum, you do you. I'll take the word of the trusted source.

 

[The CyNick]

You’d think somebody with as much hockey knowledge as youclaim to have would be able to realize the Leafs record last season was in part due to a higher number of shootout wins, while this season the Leafs have been winning games before that was even necessary (ie not having to rely on a glorified coin flip)

Anybody with even a basic level of understanding of the game would acknowledge that a team that added players of Tavares or Muzzin’s caliber was improved. Then again, you were trying to claim that Lou was responsible for Marner or had any major input in the deceison to draft Matthews lol

Lou had the absolute final say in drafting Matthews. I know that 100%. Ask him if you don't believe me.

I can look at the standings. Last year's team and this year's team is in the same pace. Roughly 105pts, start on the road against the Bruins.

Our old GM took over another team and they will likely see a 20+ point improvement and may win their division. That's pretty impressive.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

Lou is ahead of Dubas today.

I'm going to disagree. The main issues we faced this year and face going forward are based off of Lou decisions. He's had a huge impact on the leafs (Andersen trade, Rielly+Kadri contracts) But he also wasted 2 2nds (in hindsight), signed 3 bad contracts (Martin, Marleau, ZAITSEV) and really wasn't in charge of any draft decisions.
Dubas does deserve some credit for the JT signing and at the very least it should not be used as a negative against Dubas. Dubas FINALLY pulled off a trade for a top 4 d-man that fits the mold of the team and fills some of it's needs (all except him being a LHD). The Nylander contract is beginning to show potential of becoming a steal, and the Matthews contract was smart for the team due to other contracts coming up. He's made smart signings that have made it to the NHL (Moore, Ennis, Rosen, among other minor signings). Also, in his two drafts with major say in the decision (2015, 2018) he made out of those drafts pretty well. Especially in 2018 when he deserves more credit for players such as Sandin, Durzi, SDA, and Kral. Not to mention he brought us a Calder Cup which for Toronto is insane.

Dubas can't be perfect but there's very few things I've disagreed with and if I have it's just been minor concerns.

 

[The CyNick]

Are you trying to say that Dubas trading down where we selected Dermott while also acquiring more picks (Bracco and Dzierkals) instead of just taking Konecny got him demoted to GM of the AHL club?

Seriously? How can you interpret that as a terrible job? He did the same thing this year and Sandin is looking like a fantastic pick while again, acquiring more picks. It remains to be seen how those picks will turn out in 3-4 years.

Lou was brought in as a mentor so he can learn everything he can about being an NHL Gm. That was most likely Shanny's plan all along.

First of all Dubas wasnt making the call on who to draft. That was Hunter. So any credit for picking the right player goes to Hunter and his staff, not Dubas.

The second point, and I don't blame you for not being aware of this is that usually these trade down or up scenarios within the draft are at the behest of the head scout. He would indicate to the GM that he thinks there's two good players that will be available, and the GM acts in an administrator role to find a trade partner. These generally are almost predetermined deals as teams have very similar values for moving down or up X spots. So no real negotiation is required. If there is any it's very minimal.

The skill for the GM either being quick calling other teams or more accurately knowing what other teams are keen on players where you are set to draft. So Dubas did his part, but the majority of the credit should go to Hunter that one.

At the time nobody knew with certainty if those moves would pan out. What people did know is Dubas was schooled in the Kessel trade. The fact that we had to eat money for a player that would go on to be a major factor in two cups is still laughed at today by other GMs and exGMs. That's what triggered Young Kyle losing his spot and getting demoted. Lou was brought in to prevent any further damage and to help teach the young boy. Lou went on to trade a far worse contact in Dion and retained zero salary and still managed to obtain other assets. Lou went on to turn us around and make us a Stanley Cup contender in a matter of a couple years. Young Kyle has now taken over and had yet to hit anything out of the park (Tavares aside because everyone with a brain knows he was coming here regardless of who was GM).

 

[The CyNick]

I'm going to disagree. The main issues we faced this year and face going forward are based off of Lou decisions. He's had a huge impact on the leafs (Andersen trade, Rielly+Kadri contracts) But he also wasted 2 2nds (in hindsight), signed 3 bad contracts (Martin, Marleau, ZAITSEV) and really wasn't in charge of any draft decisions.
Dubas does deserve some credit for the JT signing and at the very least it should not be used as a negative against Dubas. Dubas FINALLY pulled off a trade for a top 4 d-man that fits the mold of the team and fills some of it's needs (all except him being a LHD). The Nylander contract is beginning to show potential of becoming a steal, and the Matthews contract was smart for the team due to other contracts coming up. He's made smart signings that have made it to the NHL (Moore, Ennis, Rosen, among other minor signings). Also, in his two drafts with major say in the decision (2015, 2018) he made out of those drafts pretty well. Especially in 2018 when he deserves more credit for players such as Sandin, Durzi, SDA, and Kral. Not to mention he brought us a Calder Cup which for Toronto is insane.

Dubas can't be perfect but there's very few things I've disagreed with and if I have it's just been minor concerns.

So when Lou was GM he wasn't involved in the draft but when Dubas was he had a major say in the draft.

Interesting debating tactic.

 

[2022 Stanley Cup]

So when Lou was GM he wasn't involved in the draft but when Dubas was he had a major say in the draft.

Interesting debating tactic.

Tell me how much you think Lou was involved in the 2016 draft (Obvious pick of Matthews, Other picks haven't turned out into anything great yet but they're all 20 so whatever), and 2017 (Lily fell far, pretty clear pick for the organization, and had no other great picks after). Remember, Lou would have had another 2 shots in the 2nd round if those trades for Boyle and Plekanec weren't acquired.
Dubas however was involved in 2015 although he played a secondary role to Mark Hunter. Also I know he had some part in moving back 2x and then grabbing Dermott on top of that. 2018 was clearly a Dubas draft where he picked players from the Sou and he picked players that look to be analytic darlings in the future. Won't be able to tell who's a better drafter for years to come but so far I believe in Dubas' style more.

 

[The CyNick]

Tell me how much you think Lou was involved in the 2016 draft (Obvious pick of Matthews, Other picks haven't turned out into anything great yet but they're all 20 so whatever), and 2017 (Lily fell far, pretty clear pick for the organization, and had no other great picks after). Remember, Lou would have had another 2 shots in the 2nd round if those trades for Boyle and Plekanec weren't acquired.
Dubas however was involved in 2015 although he played a secondary role to Mark Hunter. Also I know he had some part in moving back 2x and then grabbing Dermott on top of that. 2018 was clearly a Dubas draft where he picked players from the Sou and he picked players that look to be analytic darlings in the future. Won't be able to tell who's a better drafter for years to come but so far I believe in Dubas' style more.

Double down on the inconsistency. Nice.

Young Kyle already traded his second round pick from last draft. SDA has taken a step back. Anyone else further in that draft is just a guy at this point. Could turn into something, could all be busts.

 

[Mess]

New Rant

Our 4th line is a heaping pile of horse crap. Dubas do something please.

That 4th line is actually Dubas doing as Lindholm and Ennis are his summer UFA signings Gauthier promotion from the Cup winning Marlies.

That line got destroyed against the Blues and really does very little at the best of times.