Dubas needs to own up to some of these issues

[4thline]

Pretty fun seeing a guy that "would be happy to get rid of Kessel for nothing" ripping on a deal that actually had significant positive return

Especially when the biggest hidsight "problem" with the deal was that of luck/scouting leaving us with Harrington instead of Dumoulin


Confirmed with Link: - Phil Kessel traded - Part III

Free Agent/Trades 2015: Offer Sheets, Buyouts, Terminations & Free Agency

Trades: The one area where a lack of NHL GM experience hurts

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

First of all Dubas wasnt making the call on who to draft. That was Hunter. So any credit for picking the right player goes to Hunter and his staff, not Dubas.

The second point, and I don't blame you for not being aware of this is that usually these trade down or up scenarios within the draft are at the behest of the head scout. He would indicate to the GM that he thinks there's two good players that will be available, and the GM acts in an administrator role to find a trade partner. These generally are almost predetermined deals as teams have very similar values for moving down or up X spots. So no real negotiation is required. If there is any it's very minimal.

The skill for the GM either being quick calling other teams or more accurately knowing what other teams are keen on players where you are set to draft. So Dubas did his part, but the majority of the credit should go to Hunter that one.

At the time nobody knew with certainty if those moves would pan out. What people did know is Dubas was schooled in the Kessel trade. The fact that we had to eat money for a player that would go on to be a major factor in two cups is still laughed at today by other GMs and exGMs. That's what triggered Young Kyle losing his spot and getting demoted. Lou was brought in to prevent any further damage and to help teach the young boy. Lou went on to trade a far worse contact in Dion and retained zero salary and still managed to obtain other assets. Lou went on to turn us around and make us a Stanley Cup contender in a matter of a couple years. Young Kyle has now taken over and had yet to hit anything out of the park (Tavares aside because everyone with a brain knows he was coming here regardless of who was GM).

I'm aware that Hunter was in charge of who we drafted but the tactic still worked and so far looks good in the Sandin draft. Drafting a player you like while getting more picks is a great strategy. Hunter and Dubas both deserve credit for this.

As far as the Kessel trade. It sucked that we retained salary but at the time we weren't getting too many offers for an 8 Million dollar winger with attitude issues. The fact that he won cups is irrelevant. We weren't in a position to win cups with him in our lineup. We were rebuilding. Trading Kessel and Phaneuf got us to bottom out and draft Matthews. That trade is not looking like a loss at all. We got Kapanen and later Andersen out of the deal. Lou gets credit for Andersen who is a top 3 goalie right now and arguably a top 5 last year. Maybe Dubas makes that trade too as we needed a goalie and Anaheim didnt have room for both he and Gibson but we'll never know. Kapanen a solid top 6 RW on pace for 25 goals. I take Andersen, Kapanen and Matthews over Kessel any day.

Again I think Shannahan's plan was to bring in an experienced GM to groom Dubas the whole time regardless of that trade. The fact that you keep referring to Dubas as "young Kyle" is revealing your narrative. Experienced GMs like Burke, Nonis , Chiarelli, Gillis, Bergevin make terrible trades all the time. So maybe we shouldn't use age to tear someone down.

Also Lou does deserve some credit for us being a contender and so does Hunter Dubas, Bergman, and Babcock. They've all contributed in their roles to this team's success to date and it's all thanks to Shanahan.

 

[Slyfox]

That 4th line is actually Dubas doing as Lindholm and Ennis are his summer UFA signings Gauthier promotion from the Cup winning Marlies.

That line got destroyed against the Blues and really does very little at the best of times.

Nope its on Babcock. He refused to use Leivo who we gave away and would been great on the 4th line. Wasnt our 4th line one of the best with him on it? Also, it should be Brown, Par, Ennis ideally.

 

[MarnerElite]

Nope its on Babcock. He refused to use Leivo who we gave away and would been great on the 4th line. Wasnt our 4th line one of the best with him on it? Also, it should be Brown, Par, Ennis ideally.

I liked Leivo's shot and he was decent along the wall as well. I hated how he looked tired soon after he started his shift, the fact he was always chasing guys because his skating isn't very good and the fact he sucked defensively. As a coach Babcock saw that scoring wasn't going to be an issue for his team, saw that Leivo wasn't going to be beasting in areas that he needed more(energy line, not being a liability defensively)..He didn't work out unfortunately but not a big loss really.

 

[ottomaddox]

Jensen is gone.

Will there be crickets on Monday?


Too quiet.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Dubas lost the Muzzin trade. Grundstrom should have had a call up before letting go of him. Grundstrom is a player the Leafs have none of. Aside from Hyman, the other 7 wingers have the same indentity, average size, are not physical, average along the wall.

Losing in the Muzzin trade and Babcock has him on the 3rd pair which obviously proves a discord between coach and GM. U dont pay a 1st round pick, Grundstrom and Durzi for a bottom pairing guy with 1 year left on his contract after this year.

If Dubas does not move Gardiner, he fails in the asset management category. Gardiner is not a playoff type of Dman given these teams weakness's. His high risk and mistakes outweigh his vision. No one is saying it but Gardiner's bread and butter was his skating, to me Gardiner has lost a step, u never see him go end to end now and his casual pond hockey carelessness at times is baffling

 

[Menzinger]

Dubas lost the Muzzin trade. Grundstrom should have had a call up before letting go of him. Grundstrom is a player the Leafs have none of. Aside from Hyman, the other 7 wingers have the same indentity, average size, are not physical, average along the wall.

Losing in the Muzzin trade and Babcock has him on the 3rd pair which obviously proves a discord between coach and GM. U dont pay a 1st round pick, Grundstrom and Durzi for a bottom pairing guy with 1 year left on his contract after this year.

If Dubas does not move Gardiner, he fails in the asset management category. Gardiner is not a playoff type of Dman given these teams weakness's. His high risk and mistakes outweigh his vision. No one is saying it but Gardiner's bread and butter was his skating, to me Gardiner has lost a step, u never see him go end to end now and his casual pond hockey carelessness at times is baffling

Muzzin is by no means a bottom pairing quality player. By all metrics he’s a 2/3 guy. He’s just being misused since the trade

 

[613Leafer]

Muzzin is by no means a bottom pairing quality player. By all metrics he’s a 2/3 guy. He’s just being misused since the trade

He was paired with Rielly until February 14th. Leafs went 5-1-1 during that time-span.

Babcock apparently got tired of winning, and jumped back to Rielly-Hainsey and pushed Muzzin to the bottom pairing. We're 1-2-1 since then.

 

[Mess]

He was paired with Rielly until February 14th. Leafs went 5-1-1 during that time-span.

Babcock apparently got tired of winning, and jumped back to Rielly-Hainsey and pushed Muzzin to the bottom pairing. We're 1-2-1 since then.

Babcock can't win ..

If he keeps the lines and combos intact then fans complain and when he switches things around trying to find the best pairings and lines then they complain also.

The problem with Muzz is that he is LHD and Leafs/Babs requested RHD help. So with Rielly, Gardiner, Muzz and Dermott all lefties it makes it tougher to find pairings that work because someone has to switch sides.

 

[613Leafer]

Babcock can't win ..

If he keeps the lines and combos intact then fans complain and when he switches things around trying to find the best pairings and lines then they complain also.

The problem with Muzz is that he is LHD and Leafs/Babs requested RHD help. So with Rielly, Gardiner, Muzz and Dermott all lefties it makes it tougher to find pairings that work because someone has to switch sides.

Except the Muzzin-Rielly pairing was working very well. We were winning games, and Muzzin wasn't on for a single even-strength goal against during the first like 3-4 games (not sure about Rielly). So there wasn't really a "problem" that needed to be addressed.

Plus Hainsey himself is a LHD, so it's not like Babcock got rid of the Muzzin-Rielly pairing so that he could go with one that had two guys playing on their natural sides. He gave Muzzin-Rielly a 7 game sample size to get used to each other, they performed well together, and the team went 5-1-1, and then he blew that up.

 

[Mess]

Except the Muzzin-Rielly pairing was working very well. We were winning games, and Muzzin wasn't on for a single even-strength goal against during the first like 3-4 games (not sure about Rielly). So there wasn't really a "problem" that needed to be addressed.

Plus Hainsey himself is a LHD, so it's not like Babcock got rid of the Muzzin-Rielly pairing so that he could go with one that had two guys playing on their natural sides. He gave Muzzin-Rielly a 7 game sample size to get used to each other, they performed well together, and the team went 5-1-1, and then he blew that up.

I agree the Leafs had success as a team but we can't make it a 1-1 deduction that is was because of Reilly -- Muzz pairing.

Muzz is a top 4 guy so he is an upgrade on D regardless of who he plays with as a pairing. I think Babs is trying to buy Muzz some adjustment time to a new team without making him switching sides or play against the highest QofC.. So Muzz on the 2nd pairing and Rielly - Hainsey is comfortable together and take on the best.

Leafs really only have 1 true RHD in Zaitsev and lots of choices on who he best fits with and also improves his play as well. So it might not be about Rielly with Muzz but finding a solid 2nd pairing with Muzz and Zaitsev make a solid top 4.

Ideally Dubas goes out and gets Babs another solid RHD top 4 Dman.

 

[Cappuccino]

I agree the Leafs had success as a team but we can't make it a 1-1 deduction that is was because of Reilly -- Muzz pairing.

Muzz is a top 4 guy so he is an upgrade on D regardless of who he plays with as a pairing. I think Babs is trying to buy Muzz some adjustment time to and new team without making his switch sides or play against the highest QofC.. So Muzz on the 2nd pairing and Rielly - Hainsey is comfortable together and take on the best.

Leafs really only have 1 true RHD in Zaitsev and lots of choices on who he best fits with and also improves his play as well. So it might not be about Rielly with Muzz but finding a solid 2nd pairing with Muzz and Zaitsev make a solid top 4.

Ideally Dubas goes out and gets Babs another solid RHD top 4 Dman.

I am not pretending I would have been an even decent GM, nor do I underestimate the fact JVR as a pending free agent, was likely to be traded last year because the Leafs were trying to win a round. The same will apply to Gardiner this season. But the picks JVR and Gardiner would/should bring back would have made it a lot less difficult to trade Zaitsev and trade for a player like Montour...

I get the hinsight thing and all, and I realize we could never know for sure a year ago that last year wasn't the year we won it all.

I do hope Dubas will get a solid top 4 RHD this couple of days, it would give the Leafs a bigger chance to go for it.

 

[ottomaddox]

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