Dubas has to wear this

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Mess

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So 9 of 15. I was close

In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO
 
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JT AM da real deal

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That is precisely how Dubas mission statement reads in his beliefs in successful team building, and he has set out to prove that using HockeyPuck analytics that speed and skill is the recipe for success in the new NHL, and that it will overcome all other impediments including being in the bottom 5 in goals against with average goaltending.

He has tossed the old playbook out the window of "good teams are built from the goalie out, through strong defense ....yada yada yada". That is old school beliefs no longer viable in modern day hockey.

If he is right and the Leafs hoist the Cup he will be seen as a genius and have proven all his naysayers wrong, and if he is wrong and Leafs miss the playoffs then fill in the blanks _________.

In the last 5 playoff years of the bottom 10 teams in goals against where Leafs currently sit bottom 5 worst, only 2 of 50 teams (or 4%) of teams have made the playoffs only to get blown away in round #1, and where 96% of teams that finish in the bottom 10 in worst goals against don't even make the playoffs. The odds are not good statistically based on historical precedence.

Dubas is like Daenerys Targaryen and setting out to "break the wheel", but we might need a Jon Snow to step in eventually, if this starts going badly wrong. :wg:
I think he is changing his ways actually. Bringing in Muzzy. Now Clifford. and a couple more defensive defenders/forwards before TDL and bingo bango now we maybe can do something. We will see the jury is still out. Maybe he went way too far one way and now realizes he needs to change a little. I for one am still hopeful.
 
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RoyalCitySlicker

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO

That's.....not how this works.

Keefe aside from the sample you posted has a terrific record as HC. Babcock, other than the sample you posted had a poor record (this year) as HC.

Why did you choose to only highlight the "best" period of Babcock this year and the "worst" part of Keefe?

If you compare the games you didn't include in your post for each coach, how do those two sample sizes compare? I'm guessing not well.
 

Gary Nylund

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO

:facepalm:

Cherry picking at it's finest.
Ignoring the rest of the season. Why? Was the personnel fine then?
 

ACC1224

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO
Babcock was definitely a problem. Silly to think he was/is the only problem.
 

A1LeafNation

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO

How many did Hutch play in both 15 game segments?

Babcock is blamed for a shitty PP and not adjusting to his roster.
 

Dekes For Days

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I’m disagreeing with your position and analysis because it reinforces the players you prefer without offering a lot in the ways of a constructive direction.
This is not true at all. You specifically mentioned my name as reasoning, and misrepresented how I operate. You didn't counter anything about my actual analysis; just made accusations against me.

My analysis does not just reinforce the players I prefer; I'm not sure how you know what players I even prefer. I like Andersen, and have defended him in the past. But what I most prefer is a good team, and if players are not pulling their weight, I don't care how much I like them. That said, when players who are not to blame are being made scapegoats, that defies all actual information and reality, then I will speak up.

The constructive direction is to stop panicking and going off the deep end after every loss, and recognize the very real challenges this team has faced this year. It is important to also recognize the very real weaknesses that other teams have; no team in this league is perfect and has all holes filled perfectly. It is also important to recognize the incredible biases you have while watching.

The best move for this team at this point is to probably do nothing. The team still has a great chance at making the playoffs, and has a good chance of doing damage (whatever that may be in a division with the two best teams in the league in it) in the playoffs if we become healthy and either Andersen finds his game or Campbell takes over and does well. We should not be making knee-jerk reactions; that's how teams get into trouble.
Also, the blind spot about the defensive weakness is inexplicable.
The only blind spot is people not recognizing the level at which goaltending in the NHL, especially starting goaltending, is expected to make the saves that are being blamed exclusively on the defense. A defensive mistake does not absolve the goaltender of doing his job.
The team is a tire fire defensively and yet the analytics tell us it’s pretty good.
The analytics say that the defense is average to slightly below average and improving. The team is not a tire fire defensively. It's just easier for you to rationalize what's happening by assuming that what has caused the issues the last few years has maintained, because the GA (which is a combination of defense and goaltending, largely goaltending) hasn't improved. In reality, the defense has improved from past years, and the goaltending has gotten much worse. Literally everything supports this, from all analytics, standard and advanced, to the "eye test".
 
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Mess

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The team is a tire fire defensively and yet the analytics tell us it’s pretty good. No it’s not.

When you invest 1/2 your cap on 4 offensive forwards it was generally understood that it would be difficult to ice a competitive team, because of the corresponding cap utilization and needing to sacrifice in other areas and positions.

Leafs being the bottom 5 in worst goals against with average goaltending, reflective in sv%, by poor team defense and high quality of scoring opportunities allowed to the opposition, only highlighting and reemphasizing the top heavy cap management issues spending of too much $$$ on too few players, and all at the same position and its trickle down impact of team competitiveness.

I for one fully expected this of a team in a 50/50 battle for a playoff spot, with a great offense and poor defense and built to outscore their mistakes, claiming prior to the season, we have a player personnel and cap management problem and not a coaching issue. IMO
 

Pookie

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No, it's the consequence of goaltending playing well below their previous levels.

I feel like you want to tell me it's a "Perfect Season" and to "Read the Transcript"

Let's break it down to Andersen vs Back Ups

I took a look at Andersen's save percentage when he wins, loses and gets the gimmick point.

Wins - .934
Loss - .844
OTL - .907

Considering he's gotten us 58 of our 68 points... is it ok with you if we give him a just a little credit for the "Ws" and playing really well there?

Now to the Back Ups

... not even going to bother. We know the numbers are bad. Who picked the backups?
 
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Dekes For Days

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.
Babcock's first 15 games:

Expected goals against: 17th
Team save percentage: 22nd

Keefe's last 15 games:

Expected goals against: 9th
Team save percentage: 30th
 

egd27

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Have we not lost like 10 of 15 or something like that (too lazy to check).

I think some people are looking a bit more broader than last night

Not the exact answer you were looking for but the Leafs have 3 Reg wins in their past 15. (2 came against NJD & Nashville)
9 losses (3 inOT or SO)
 

Arthur Morgan

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You don't waste a year of those contracts to "retool". Ridiculous. Like it or not, this is go time. And so far he hasn't sunk assets for "band-aid" fixes.
this season is boardline a wash. You just want to keep holding onto our UFA's and sell more of the future for what looks like won't happen anyways? so we should push for the playoffs and if we miss we wasted a year on their contracts anyways. or we sell our UFAs who will be gone anyways replace them with the kids and see how we do anyways. gain assets to move forward with... like christ time is running out you do realize that right? Leafs havn't been good since January of last year. with the injuries we have I think a retool is more than realistic.
Campbell was a decent add because he has term and is pretty decent. but getting Clifford was kind of a bandaid fix. but it's okay because we got Campbell part of it.
we could easily sell Clifford off for a couple of 3rds or 3rd + 4th or something
 

Gallagbi

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I feel like you want to tell me it's a "Perfect Season" and to "Read the Transcript"

I took a look at Andersen's save percentage when he wins, loses and gets the gimmick point.

Wins - .934
Loss - .844
OTL - .907

Considering he's gotten us 58 of our 68 points... is it ok with you if we give him a just a little credit for the "Ws" and playing really well there?
Why not look at the whole picture and evaluate that way? He's a middle tier starter this year by save% and slightly below when you look at expected GA (last I saw).

I think it's fair to call him and average to slightly below average starter this year.
 

Jeffrey Pedler

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO

One had a full training camp with these players to better implement his system, the other hasn't.

We are still third in the Atlantic with Montreal and Florida going into a tailspin.
 
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HoweHullOrr

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO

Well, the Panthers are 5-4-1 in the last 10 games, same record as us in the last 10 I think. What is funny is that we may limp into the playoffs playing .500 hockey. Thankfully, other than the top 2 teams, no teams in the Atlantic are playing very well & its not the deepest, most competitive division.
 

Dekes For Days

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He's a middle tier starter this year by save% and slightly below when you look at expected GA (last I saw).
Andersen's total goals saved above average (average relative to all goalies, not just starters):

2016-2017: 8.54 (13th)
2017-2018: 12.03 (12th)
2018-2019: 14.38 (10th)
2019-2020: 0.20 (37th)

His performance this year is simply unacceptable by a starting goalie.
 

Mess

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Well, the Panthers are 5-4-1 in the last 10 games, same record as us in the last 10 I think. What is funny is that we may limp into the playoffs playing .500 hockey. Thankfully, other than the top 2 teams, no teams in the Atlantic are playing very well & its not the deepest, most competitive division.

Agreed Leafs only saving grace on this season is that it might come down to 1-1 battle Leafs vs Panthers for a playoff spot and Panthers are virtually our mirror image of strong offense and weak defense with below average goaltending, making for a very average hockey team.

Leafs 204 GF & 188 GA vs Panthers 197 GF and 191 GA with both teams top 5 in offense and bottom 5 in defense and 2 points difference in standings and as a result battling tooth and nail for the same playoff spot. [ NHL.com Stats ]

I like our chances that we might come out on top of this head to head.. However we might limp into the playoffs and face a team like TB who have currently won 20 of their last 23 games and where currently Boston and TB our road through the playoffs are #1 and #2 overall standings sitting as the NHL's best teams.

The hope was the Leafs would build a stable annually competitive team that would be Cup competitive year after year, and it appears we're more of a fight for your life team just to get in, and then a Cinderella team hoping for an underdog hail marry run to success.

As Leafs fans we sit here forced to be hoping for a fairy tail ending.
 
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Pookie

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Why not look at the whole picture and evaluate that way? He's a middle tier starter this year by save% and slightly below when you look at expected GA (last I saw).

I think it's fair to call him and average to slightly below average starter this year.

That's fair.

Let's also look at his usage rate and recall that some of us were pointing to the risk of fatigue on performance and injury given that Keefe was leaning on him so much.

From Nov 21st (Keefe starts) to All Star Break there were 26 games. Keefe played Andersen in 22 of them. A usage rate (85%) well above where the team wanted him to be (60ish games).

Andersen's play has tailed off significantly since January (.870) and he's been injured.

Why was Keefe leaning on him so much?

No capable Back Up.

Whose role is it to get a capable Back Up?

That's a whole picture look.
 

All Mod Cons

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In Babcock's 1st 15 games of this season during October the Leafs went 7-5-3 record for 17 points.
vs
In Keefe's last 15 games of this season during Jan-Feb the Leafs went 6-6-3 record for 15 points.

Babcock is being blamed for the Leafs season struggles, while Keefe in 2020 is actually underperforming and not getting better current results.

2 different coaches with same results, maybe we have a player personnel issue and that is on Dubas as GM to own that. IMO
I agree completely. It also doesn't seem that any coach can get this team to start on time.
 

Fogelhund

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Hey Kyle... maybe try and hire Boudreau as an Assistant Coach, in charge of the defensive side of the game??
 
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All Mod Cons

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That's fair.

Let's also look at his usage rate and recall that some of us were pointing to the risk of fatigue on performance and injury given that Keefe was leaning on him so much.

From Nov 21st (Keefe starts) to All Star Break there were 26 games. Keefe played Andersen in 22 of them. A usage rate (85%) well above where the team wanted him to be (60ish games).

Andersen's play has tailed off significantly since January (.870) and he's been injured.

Why was Keefe leaning on him so much?

No capable Back Up.

Whose role is it to get a capable Back Up?

That's a whole picture look.
Yep. The Leafs were warned and warned about this
 
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