Dubas has to wear this

[Suntouchable13]

Ok, I am willing to cut him some slack for this season even if they don't make the playoffs. BUT, if next season is not going well either, he should be fired before Christmas.

 

[Gallagbi]

Fatigue and injury risk are pretty established principles in sport/muscle/health/exercise science.

So when have most of his injuries occured? Late year or early/mid? High or low usage periods? Seems like it was early/mid year from memory before long term fatigue would set in and I don't remember it being high usage times.


All this to say he's still been below average this year and a big concern given expectations. That's not on the backup, that's on him

 

[Menzinger]

You said Dubas seeks out puck control in his deals.

He’s put a player on the roster who was ranked 816 in that category.

Ceci was not and is not a puck controller.

Further, Dubas’ job is to make the D better. He has not made the D better by bringing in Ceci.

He can’t get good players without a trade? Boo f’ing hoo. That’s his job. Find the players that will fit. Get them.

That’s why he wears this per the OP.

You are making yourself into a pretzel here.

And youre ignoring the reality that Ceci wasnt a normal "hockey" trade.

When youre trading a garbage asset like Zaitsev you have to take a negative one in return, or give up something of value to dump it (lile with the Marleau trade).

The main value in the Ceci aquistion was the long term capspace.

Ceci was signed beacuse the Leafs essentially had to :notice it was a 1 year deal that allows the Leafs to walk away from the player July 1st.

If the Leafs resign Ceci again youd have a point. But we both know they wont.

 

[Menzinger]

Agreed, should have kept Marleau and the 1st and let Mitch rot. Kind of reminds me of Burkie misjudging the landscape and signing Komi, Bauchemin and trading for Kessel.

So youd be legitimately happier if Marner say went the entire season unsigned?

 

[Menzinger]

Hey Kyle... maybe try and hire Boudreau as an Assistant Coach, in charge of the defensive side of the game??

Funny enough, Boudreau is a big fan of advanced stats.

He may actually be a good fit with Dubas. Though might be tense to have a senior guy work under Keefe

 

[ToneDog]

So youd be legitimately happier if Marner say went the entire season unsigned?

Well it was his call. I would not have been happy but it would have been easy to accept him sitting out after learning he rejected the Tavares deal in late June.

 

[Pookie]

And youre ignoring the reality that Ceci wasnt a normal "hockey" trade.

When youre trading a garbage asset like Zaitsev you have to take a negative one in return, or give up something of value to dump it (lile with the Marleau trade).

The main value in the Ceci aquistion was the long term capspace.

Ceci was signed beacuse the Leafs essentially had to :notice it was a 1 year deal that allows the Leafs to walk away from the player July 1st.

If the Leafs resign Ceci again youd have a point. But we both know they wont.

There is no ignoring the reason for the trade.

But thank you for highlighting the difference between Lou and Dubas.

If Lou got a broken bike back for spare parts... he would park it in the garage. Remove the cap hit and ice a better player. Greening. Michalek. Laich.

It appears if Dubas gets a broken bike back for spare parts ... he rides it 20 mins a game in the show. Maybe he forgot where the garage was.

I guess we’ve concluded experience matters.

 

[Menzinger]

There is no ignoring the reason for the trade.

But thank you for highlighting the difference between Lou and Dubas.

If Lou got a bike back for spare parts... he would park it in the garage. Remove the cap hit and ice a better player. Greening. Michalek. Laich.

It appears if Dubas gets a bike back for spare parts ... he rides it 20 mins a game in the show.

I guess we’ve concluded experience matters.

Lou's "experience" crested the Zaitsev problem to begin with....

Who could have guessed giving a 7 year contract to a rookie coming off a year with production totals inflated by secondary assists on the PP would have been a bad idea...

The Leafs didnt have a depth D man ready to step in depth D man so they couldnt waive Ceci right away. And now they have with a more developed Liljgren

 

[Pookie]

Lou's "experience" crested the Zaitsev problem to begin with....

Who could have guessed giving a 7 year contract to a rookie coming off a year with production totals inflated by secondary assists on the PP would have been a bad idea...

I’m not sure going down the contract road is going to be your best Dubas defence argument.

The Leafs didnt have a depth D man ready to step in depth D man so they couldnt waive Ceci right away. And now they have with a more developed Liljgren

Liljegren?

Oh yeah... the D that Lou drafted. He’s ready?

That’s nice.

It’s nice to see Dubas achieving Nonis’ defensive prowess ranking. Nonis was obviously known for his defensively stingy and successful teams.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Lou's "experience" crested the Zaitsev problem to begin with....

Who could have guessed giving a 7 year contract to a rookie coming off a year with production totals inflated by secondary assists on the PP would have been a bad idea...

The Leafs didnt have a depth D man ready to step in depth D man so they couldnt waive Ceci right away. And now they have with a more developed Liljgren

I don't even know why Lou rushed to give Zaitsev 7 years because wasn't he still going to be an RFA?

 

[LeafsNation75]

I’m not sure going down the contract road is going to be your best Dubas defence argument.



Liljegren?

Oh yeah... the D that Lou drafted. He’s ready?

That’s nice.

It’s nice to see Dubas achieving Nonis’ defensive prowess ranking. Nonis was obviously known for his defensively stingy and successful teams.

Lou's worst contracts he gave out was to Marleau and Zaitsev.

As for him being the GM when they drafted Liljegren I thought Mark Hunter gets the credit for selecting him.

 

[Cleetus]

I don't even know why Lou rushed to give Zaitsev 7 years because wasn't he still going to be an RFA?

thought he was going to be ufa?

 

[Dekes For Days]

In case you don't get it. it's not the players' fault they're not capable of playing good enough, it's the fault of the guy that put them in that position in the first place..

The only way this is true is if you think Andersen is below starting goaltender quality, contrary to basically his entire career until this year.

 

[Pookie]

Lou's worst contracts he gave out was to Marleau and Zaitsev.

As for him being the GM when they drafted Liljegren I thought Mark Hunter gets the credit for selecting him.

Hunter got credit for selections when Lou wasn't here. Dubas was told to focus on trades and contracts. Hunter was told to focus on the draft.

Clearly though you are right... Hunter had some input.

 

[Dekes For Days]

In 2017-18... the last time he had a capable back up... was probably the best case scenario for the team. I believe that was Lou's signing wasn't it? Yes. I guess it was.

McBackup was not a signing by Lou.

Dubas has the reputation of taking good defensive teams and turning them into tire fires.

No he doesn't.

With the WC spot all but assured to the Metro Division

The wildcard spot is not "assured to the Metro division" at all.

Remove the cap hit and ice a better player. Greening. Michalek. Laich.
It appears if Dubas gets a broken bike back for spare parts ... he rides it 20 mins a game in the show.

Lol, this is essentially bashing him for getting valuable, useful assets back for his garbage instead of more garbage.

I’m not sure going down the contract road is going to be your best Dubas defence argument.

Dubas' contract signing history is way better than Lou's.

Liljegren? Oh yeah... the D that Lou drafted. He’s ready?

Yeah, only one year later than Sandin, who Dubas drafted later in the draft.

 

[Fatass]

I think this is the only team in the league where fans say stupid **** like this. "Oh, let's trade our best PPG winger to keep the third line center, because the PPG winger will bring in a better defenseman!"

In a cap system money needs to be allocated in the best way to win. Marner is fabulous. No question. However, to sign Tavares meant monies needed to be reallocated. JT got money that should have gone to MM

 

[Dekes For Days]

JT got money that should have gone to MM

Marner got money that he had earned, Tavares got money he had earned, and the Leafs are better off for having both of them.

 

[Stephen]

And youre ignoring the reality that Ceci wasnt a normal "hockey" trade.

When youre trading a garbage asset like Zaitsev you have to take a negative one in return, or give up something of value to dump it (lile with the Marleau trade).

The main value in the Ceci aquistion was the long term capspace.

Ceci was signed beacuse the Leafs essentially had to :notice it was a 1 year deal that allows the Leafs to walk away from the player July 1st.

If the Leafs resign Ceci again youd have a point. But we both know they wont.

I agree with the premise that Ceci wasn't a normal hockey trade, but his utilization seemed to indicate they forgot this and tried leaning hard on him.

 

[BertCorbeau]

It's a good attempt at what you are attempting

He does get injured which is why the team felt it best to reduce his ice time to prevent fatigue and injury risk. Little did they know they would have a Coach that couldn't see the big picture.

Let's talk about Andersen's performance and team results though since you brought it up.

In 2017-18... the last time he had a capable back up... was probably the best case scenario for the team. I believe that was Lou's signing wasn't it? Yes. I guess it was.

Lou assembled a tandem that combined for a .917 save percentage that year. Absolutely stunning. And 4th overall in the NHL in that statistic. If I'm not mistaken, set a franchise record for points in a single season.

I don't think anyone would have predicted that Dubas would have taken that 4th overall team and drop 17 places to 21st overall just a season and a half later with a .900 save percentage.

I mean, you just wouldn't expect it. That's quite a large drop. It would have been laughable to even think of it as a possibility but it just goes to show you just never know what you had until it's gone.

In fairness to Dubas, I guess Lou just knows how to build defensive successes. His Islanders are 7th overall in save percentage with a .912 this year and his reputation in that category really is outstanding.

Dubas has the reputation of taking good defensive teams and turning them into tire fires. It's an unfair moniker from my perspective but we have to go where the facts lead I suppose.

McBackup was claimed off of waives in January 2018 after Lou's original backup signing, Jonas Enroth, put up worse numbers than both Sparks and Hutch ever did. It was quite a stroke of luck that Backup fell into Toronto's laps amidst having a good season.

And a fair observation is that Andersen's struggles this year are a strong part of the reason for the Leafs' position in the standings. The goalie that Lou brought in and was a big part of why they were such a well perceived defensive team. Except if I recall correctly those Leafs under Lou bled a lot of shots against. Andersen was one of the busiest goalies in the league. Not that this has changed too much under Keefe in terms of shots against however advanced stats seem to indicate the Leafs give up less quality chances now than they did under Babcock from what I've heard.

Be interesting to see where this team would be if Andersen was at his normal level.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Hunter got credit for selections when Lou wasn't here. Dubas was told to focus on trades and contracts. Hunter was told to focus on the draft.

Clearly though you are right... Hunter had some input.

Hunter's first draft with the Leafs was in 2015 when he was in charge of who they selected. So it was 1 draft with him before Lou arrived and Huner was still in charge of who they selected in 2016 and 2017.

 

[Pookie]

McBackup was not a signing by Lou.

No he doesn't.

The wildcard spot is not "assured to the Metro division" at all.

Lol, this is essentially bashing him for getting valuable, useful assets back for his garbage instead of more garbage.

Dubas' contract signing history is way better than Lou's.

Yeah, only one year later than Sandin, who Dubas drafted later in the draft.

Ceci is not a valuable asset.

27th in GA. Tied with Nonis.

Woohoo.

 

[Pookie]

Be interesting to see where this team would be if Andersen was at his normal level.

By “normal level” do you mean if not overused to the point of fatigue and injury as a result of a flawed roster?

Yeah. I too wonder what the performance would be like if they stuck to the plan to use him 70-75% of the time.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

There is no ignoring the reason for the trade.

But thank you for highlighting the difference between Lou and Dubas.

If Lou got a broken bike back for spare parts... he would park it in the garage. Remove the cap hit and ice a better player. Greening. Michalek. Laich.

It appears if Dubas gets a broken bike back for spare parts ... he rides it 20 mins a game in the show. Maybe he forgot where the garage was.

I guess we’ve concluded experience matters.

This is hilarious, you're literally grasping for straws and running in a circle

You're right. Dubas should have given Ceci a 7 year extension at 4.5 million instead. I wonder why the kid didn't learn that move from Lou, the wise experienced man.

 

[Todd03]

for the maple leafs to make the playoffs or stay in the playoff hunt team needs at least two
tough and gritty (or stay at home) defencemen.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ceci is not a valuable asset.

Is he the best defenseman on the planet? No.
Is he worth 4.5m going forward? Probably not.
Is he an NHLer that brings some positive things to a team? Yes.
Is he better than Zaitsev? Yes.
Is not having Zaitsev's contract for the next half-decade beneficial? Yes.

27th in GA.

Actually, they are 26th, and that's due primarily to goaltending, not Ceci.