Dubas has to wear this

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Feel like I'm going to regret jumping in, but here goes

Seems obvious you made a mistake here and just don't want to admit it. Lou acquired Mac off waivers after his option failed. It wasn't a "signing", but it did work out.

It's okay to say that, no need to dance around your error, just say it wasn't a signing and move on.

Totally respect what you are trying to do here. It's a good way to pass the time. Like beer and wings with the boys after the game. Trust me. I get it.

But... no :)

Lou actually did this with Nylander, some teams have done it to leverage the second contract. I doubt it'll matter much either way with a player like Sandin who won't get top PP time on his ELC with Rielly around.

If we were going to burn a year of Sandin... why start Ceci? 816 of 906 in CF% on a "possession" team.

2- the injury triggered Campbell's acquisition. While not a starter in my eyes, he may take us through Fred's poor play.

That's sad but true.... sorry Metallica. If the only thing that motivated Dubas to change goaltending was an injury to Freddy then wow... just wow.

How oblivious do you have to be?

giphy.gif


Analysts looked at other goalies to determine workload, not Fred specifically. As we know, not every goalie or human is the same.
I mean team analysts. You mean team analysts don't you?

When Freddy says they discussed it... we can assume he discussed his starts with Team Doctors, Coaches, GM, Stats guys and officials within the club.

Not that he was getting his info from Elliot Freedman
 
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Gallagbi

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If we were going to burn a year of Sandin... why start Ceci? 816 of 906 in CF% on a "possession" team.
Because he's a RD and Sandin is left? Or like Nylander, the plan changes when you have a good season with the Marlies?

That's sad but true.... sorry Metallica. If the only thing that motivated Dubas to change goaltending was an injury to Freddy then wow... just wow.
We've heard he was in the market, but that seemed to be the last straw.

I mean team analysts. You mean team analysts don't you?

When Freddy says they discussed it... we can assume he discussed his starts with Team Doctors, Coaches, GM, Stats guys and officials within the club.

Not that he was getting his info from Elliot Freedman.
Honestly I think there has been pressure from the outside on this one. He's always been a 60+ start goalie here under both GMs, but then it changes this year? I don't expect "new numbers" came in or new info, but there's been growing discussion about low workload starters winning cups in the hockey community. The team could have also just been looking to change it up given he imploded in another game 7.

I don't think this would be a doctor's decision, likely Dubas/Babs talking about workload to reframe expectations.

Either way, I can't blame the back up for that. Right now Fred's on pace for the same number of starts as last year. He's gone through a short injury both years missing roughly the same amount of time (too lazy to look up exact numbers on my phone) and has simply played much worse. Maybe he's just passed his peak.
 

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Dubas chose to continue with the guy who had put up 3 straight years in a row at above average starter level.

Yep... and peg his usage at an optimal 50ish games this year to give the team the best chance for playoff success.

And then cluster F the back up situation so that his coach leaned on him to the point of fatigue and injury.

Great execution of the plan.
 
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Craig Button

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That overuse of muscles leads to fatigue and increased risk of injury.

okay I thought Andersen’s injury was due to getting hit twice in the Panthers game.

I didn’t know he struggled in October because Dubas was going to overuse him in the future.

I didn’t know that Andersen allowed 14 goals in his first 4 starts because he was going to be overused later on in the season. I didn’t know that.

I didn’t know that Andersen was going to be used like many other #1 goalies in this league playing a strong majority of games.

I didn’t know there’s no other goalie to play 40 or more games this season. (There’s 10 more)
 
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Gallagbi

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Well which is it... pressure from outside or a decision by coach and GM?
Pressure from the outside influenced a decision by coach and GM.

Wonder if it's the wrong one and they should have kept his starts closer to the 66 pace like the Lou days.
 

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okay I thought Andersen’s injury was due to getting hit twice in the Panthers game.

I didn’t know he struggled in October because Dubas was going to overuse him in the future.

Happy to help buddy.

Andersen was 6-2-2 in October. Pretty good considering the team in front of him said they weren't trying as hard
I didn’t know that Andersen allowed 14 goals in his first 4 starts because he was going to be overused later on in the season. I didn’t know that.

Sneaky... sneaky use of stats. You thought you could get one over on the ol' Pookster but using a 7 goal loss when he let in 7 total in the other 3 to create a random "first 4 starts" stat...

I mean... BRAVO... well done.

I'm too sharp for that. I mean, I can't sneak a new driver into my golf bag without my wife finding out but she's crafty and with all due respect to you... I think I'm sharp enough to catch what you are doing.

I didn’t know that Andersen was going to be used like many other #1 goalies in this league playing a strong majority of games.

Well, he's being leaned on more than Montreal's Carey Price... that's something.
I didn’t know there’s no other goalie to play 40 or more games this season. (There’s 10 more)

It's ok... Dubas didn't know the names of any other back up goalies either.
 
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Pressure from the outside influenced a decision by coach and GM.

Wonder if it's the wrong one and they should have kept his starts closer to the 66 pace like the Lou days.

So the GM is influenced by social media and talk show hosts?

I mean we know the coach doesn't make a decision without asking his players if it's ok... but Dubas? Really?

Never heard of that. I mean Lou never went for that sort of thing.

So in fairness to Dubas... maybe I'm just out of touch with the new way of managing a hockey team where you take a poll and base your decision on what's popular and not from a position of confidence in terms of what's right.
 

Gabriel426

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It is always easy to judge with hindsight.
For once, we think the Leafs are all in this year bc of all the UFAs Dmen but to Dubas and Shanny this could be a year where due to cap, competition(Bruins and Lightnings) and the experiences of the team in general, their goals might just be 1st round or 2nd round and not contender like what we think and want.
8/9 of top 9 Fwds are signed for 3 yrs or more, while the core are for 5 yrs. Dubas and Shanny might think they have 2yrs for Sandin, TL and Dermott to mature while will go for a RHD-Pietra or someone like that this summer due to the increase in cap and the pending UFA Dmen to free up cap.

If you are Dubas before the season starts.
It is quite safe to assume the follows:
Matthews will produce like in the top 3 in Goals as long as he is healthy.
Marner might drop off a little bit but he can get PPG with at least 20 goals
JT will be PPG player or close to that with 35goals
Willie will improve or at the very least a 65pts and 20 goals player.
Reilly might not repeat 70pts but he should get 50pts.
Barrie will get 50 pts.
Kap/AJ/Kerfoot/Hyman/Spezza will combine close to 85 goals and 170pts
Andersen will get around 38 Wins.
Hutch will win half his starts
The rest of the team will chip in here and there.

Most of them checked out. Except Freddie has not been good. Hutch got 9 pts for 15 games, secondary scorings are missing and we trash on the defence but when healthy, they are good as long as Freddie don’t let in the first shot on net.
Injuries played a big part this season, esp on the blue line and Souperman getting hurt.
 
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egd27

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Let me understand something.....McBackup was claimed off of waivers by the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs, who at the time was Lou Lamoriello.....but a couple of posters are arguing that because the term "signing" was used instead of "claimed", that Lamoriello should not be given credit for acquiring him?
 
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Gallagbi

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So the GM is influenced by social media and talk show hosts?
would ultimately be the coaches decision, but I think our GM discusses issues with people in the hockey community. I don't expect Dangle is on speed dial, but I think there are people around the league thinking less is more with starts.

Doesn't seem to work with Fred. Lots of potential reasons why, but all we know is he's playing poorly with his regular workload right now and the less he's played here the worse he's looked


So in fairness to Dubas... maybe I'm just out of touch with the new way of managing a hockey team where you take a poll and base your decision on what's popular and not from a position of confidence in terms of what's right.
You really want to get in to this petty garbage?
 

Gallagbi

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Let me understand something.....McBackup was claimed off of waivers by the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs, who at the time was Lou Lamoriello.....but a couple of posters are arguing that because the term "signing" was used instead of "claimed", that Lamoriello should not be given credit for acquiring him?
Think it speaks more to the "plan" of Lou to have Mac backup when Enroth was the first choice.
 

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Let me understand something.....McBackup was claimed off of waivers by the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs, who at the time was Lou Lamoriello.....but a couple of posters are arguing that because the term "signing" was used instead of "claimed", that Lamoriello should not be given credit for acquiring him?

Yep.

They believe something happened. It was a good move but apparently doesn't rise to the level of signing.
 

LeafingTheWay

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No circles buddy.

Totally agree Zaitsev had to go. Mainly because he wanted to go.

Ceci is not away from the roster. He's injured but in his last 5 games he's averaged over 17 mins a game.

But you gave no response as to why Lou kept a bad Zaitsev on the roster? Why didn't Lou just trade him or bury him, instead of having him play ~21 mins a night?

Ceci went from top-pairing minutes, to 3rd pairing minutes (17 mins), to "out for a while" under Dubas. Maybe Lou should've taken a page out of Dubas's book ;) ?

FYI: I think both Zaitsev and Ceci are average bottom-pairing D (I.e #5/#6 options). But neither are worth 4.5M, especially when there are much cheaper options.

Dubas screwed the back up situation and that led to overuse of Andersen and increased risk of injury. The position we are in is totally on Dubas and his decisions.

No one's denying Dubas screwed up the backup goalie situation before. His choice of Hutchinson was terrible and it turned out worse than anyone could've imagined.

But you're misrepresenting what happened. Andersen wasn't overplayed this season. In fact, Andersen was more overplayed before Dubas tookover.

After 57 games played (I.e Up until Andersen got injured this season Feb 3rd 2020):
2016-2017: 45 started out of the 57 games
2017-2018: 46 started out of the 57 games
VS
2018-2019: 39 started out of the 57 games
2019-2020: 42 started out of the 57 games

Maybe Dubas should get his coaches to play Andersen more?

(Because I like you... here is a Debate Tip: stop focusing on GA. This is absolutely not a Dubas strength. If you want a good counter... talk about the offense which is absolutely excellent and one of the best we have had in decades... though not totally Dubas' doing... it's been enhanced since he got control)

But here's the thing, you're focusing on GA despite Andersen clearly being brutal since the calendar turned to 2020 and our #1D being injured. If our 'defense' and 'backup' is as terrible as you keep mentioning, then shouldn't missing our #1D, our #1 goalie, and our #2D for stretches of the year be a valid 'excuse'.

Since Jan 1st 2020 (I.e when our 'honeymoon' Keefe phase ended):
Andersen: .893 sv% and 3.68 GAA
Hutchinson: .894 sv% and 2.78 GAA

That's completely out of Dubas's hands, and that's something that happens to goalies - they hit a rough patch. I'm not arguing that our GA is actually the best in the league, I'm arguing that it's average when the D and G are healthy.

Now if you're asking Dubas to replace Andersen, then I dunno lol.
 

Dekes For Days

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Let me understand something.....McBackup was claimed off of waivers by the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs, who at the time was Lou Lamoriello.....but a couple of posters are arguing that because the term "signing" was used instead of "claimed", that Lamoriello should not be given credit for acquiring him?
No, somebody came in, claimed that McBackup was signed by Lou, and then instead of simply admitting their mistake when proven wrong, has tried to twist claiming off waivers into being the same thing as signing. Accuracy is important.
 

varano

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Dubas has been shitty the whole time.

Nylander set the stage for his incompetence. He's lucky that Nylander is managing some decent points now but we all know he has the potential to go into suck mode too

Marner was disgustingly overpaid vs Rantanen. For those two contracts I'd rather take Rantanen.

Matthews was overpaid. I'd rather take Aho. Add up the cap savings and you have a defencemen right there.

He brought Barrie in who is known for being an offensive guy when we clearly needed anothee Jake Muzzin type back there.

He gave up a first rounder to dump Marleau when all he needed to do from the start was handle the contracts of the big three properly.

He's pretty incompetent. Letting Lou leave was a huge mistake.
 

yubbers

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I don't understand how people can blame Dubas at this point. He got a back up. Added bottom 6 grit. Brought in a coach that has turned the top 6 in to the best offence in the league since the coaching change (seriously, Matthews and Marner have been pacing for over 100 points since the switch), Nylander is torching the league compared to last season. And doing this without our third best winger, number 1 D and the worst statistical goaltending in the league since December. With even above average goaltending we would probably be right on Boston's tail right now. I am not worried in the slightest. This teams ceiling is effing huge.

You don't understand how the GM of a team can be blamed for consistent regression?
Kinda comes with the territory of running things. Maybe one day you can use actual success to lean on instead of spreadsheets predicting it and excuses. Fact sare we just keep getting worse with him.
 
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egd27

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No, somebody came in, claimed that McBackup was signed by Lou, and then instead of simply admitting their mistake when proven wrong, has tried to twist claiming off waivers into being the same thing as signing. Accuracy is important.

I see.

Must be a challenge to need be "right" so badly that one would resort to that level of semantic gymnastics.
 

Mess

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Brought in a coach that has turned the top 6 in to the best offence in the league since the coaching change (seriously, Matthews and Marner have been pacing for over 100 points since the switch)..

People say this and think this because the colour guys say this, but its not really accurate.

I went and researched the results of this theory just the other day right after the Arizona game to see how much Matthews and Marner changed using the game logs. I compared Matthews and Marner under different coaches during a 15 game stretch start of season and last/most recent games played.

In October during 1st X 15 games under Babcock : Matthews 15 games = 11-5-16 points & Marner: 15 games = 4-13-17 points [while playing 18-19 ATOI/g and apart]
= Combined : 15 goals 33 points

During Jan-Feb last X 15 games under Keefe : Matthews 15 games = 12-5-17 points & Marner: 15 games = 3-14-17 points [while playing together and 23-25 ATOI/g]
= Combined 15 goals 34 points

The results under different coaches playing them apart vs together and regardless of the TOI/g given the #'s are virtually identical.

Source game logs:
Auston Matthews
Mitch Marner
 
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