Dubas has to wear this

[Dekes For Days]

By “normal level” do you mean if not overused to the point of fatigue and injury as a result of a flawed roster?

Andersen wasn't overused, and his usage had nothing to do with his injury or his struggles.

 

[Pookie]

McBackup was not a signing by Lou.

When you claim a player off waivers in Jan 2018... when you are the GM... you "sign" them to the roster.

Yeah, only one year later than Sandin, who Dubas drafted later in the draft.

Hey... Sandin... great point. Good prospect.

This brings back another point of foolishness in Dubas' contract management.

Sandin is 1 of 10 D to play for the Leafs.

He's played in 18 NHL games now... thus starting the clock on his ELC status. Meaning that in 2 more seasons, his ELC will expire and will be in contract negotiation mode.

If the intention wasn't to burn this year... say by playing the broken bike that is Cody Ceci... seems like he's gone back on that plan.

If the plan was to burn the ELC year... WTF have we been doing with Ceci in the line up?

Brilliant strategy.

 

[Pookie]

Andersen wasn't overused, and his usage had nothing to do with his injury or his struggles.

It was a "Perfect Usage" eh?

Overuse and fatigue have nothing to do with injuries?

Ok, Fox and Friends. I'll stick with the Science on this one.

 

[Pookie]

This is hilarious, you're literally grasping for straws and running in a circle

You're right. Dubas should have given Ceci a 7 year extension at 4.5 million instead. I wonder why the kid didn't learn that move from Lou, the wise experienced man.

WTF are you focusing on his contract?

Lou would have buried a guy that couldn't play any more.

Face it... your Idol felt that Ceci could still play. That's why he's on the roster and earning 20+ mins a night...

... and part of the reason why we have slipped to 27th overall in GA.

 

[Cleetus]

It was a "Perfect Usage" eh?

Overuse and fatigue have nothing to do with injuries?

Ok, Fox and Friends. I'll stick with the Science on this one.

haha we may disagree with politics, but I agree with your postings, dubas took way to long to get a back-up, freddy got over worked simple to see really.

 

[Pookie]

Is he the best defenseman on the planet? No.
Is he worth 4.5m going forward? Probably not.
Is he an NHLer that brings some positive things to a team? Yes.
Is he better than Zaitsev? Yes.
Is not having Zaitsev's contract for the next half-decade beneficial? Yes.

Forget the contract stuff. If there was a cap crunch... Laich, Michalek and Greening would show him around the Marlies.

The question is could this D man play in our system and if not... find another one.

The answer is that he can't. He's not very good.

Actually, they are 26th, and that's due primarily to goaltending, not Ceci.

Nope... 27th.. NHL Hockey Standings

26 San Jose 187
27 Toronto 192
28 Ottawa 193
29 Florida 194
30 NJ 196
31 - Detroit 220

That's the team Dubas built. It's also very similar to the D that Nonis built.

Fun times baby.

 

[Pookie]

haha we may disagree with politics, but I agree with your postings, dubas took way to long to get a back-up, freddy got over worked simple to see really.

If a Trumper can see it .... ... not sure why the Duber can't see it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

When you claim a player off waivers in Jan 2018... when you are the GM... you "sign" them to the roster.

No, claiming him on waivers was not "signing" him. It was claiming him off waivers, because Lou's first option failed more horribly than anybody else since, and he was lucky enough to have one drop into his lap and put up a career year.

He's played in 18 NHL games now... thus starting the clock on his ELC status. Meaning that in 2 more seasons, his ELC will expire and will be in contract negotiation mode.

Which could turn out beneficial for the Leafs long-term, as it gives him less time to earn a higher contract.

If the intention wasn't to burn this year... say by playing the broken bike that is Cody Ceci... seems like he's gone back on that plan.

It's called adapting to the situation when you have half of your starting defense lineup get injured. You're acting like he had a choice.

Overuse and fatigue have nothing to do with injuries?

It was normal usage, and there was zero evidence of fatigue. It was right after a week break for goodness sake.

And no, him getting hit in the head has nothing to do with that.

Ok, Fox and Friends. I'll stick with the Science on this one.

You're not sticking to science. Also, stop with the politics nonsense. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[Pookie]

No, claiming him on waivers was not "signing" him. It was claiming him off waivers, because Lou's first option failed more horribly than anybody else since, and he was lucky enough to have one drop into his lap and put up a career year.

When you claim a guy... you absorb him on your team and responsible for paying his contract and honoring the terms of the deal.

I say signing. You say "no collusion" ... same difference.

Which could turn out beneficial for the Leafs long-term, as it gives him less time to earn a higher contract.

No... burning a year of ELC status is never beneficial as the next contract is always more expensive than the league minimum.

It's called adapting to the situation when you have half of your starting defense lineup get injured. You're acting like he had a choice.

We always have choices... you are just used to seeing the wrong ones.

It was normal usage, and there was zero evidence of fatigue. It was right after a week break for goodness sake.

There was plenty of evidence of usage above what the team... including doctors and analysts... agreed was optimal.

70-75% was agreed. 85% was what Keefe did.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Forget the contract stuff. If there was a cap crunch... Laich, Michalek and Greening would show him around the Marlies.

That doesn't erase cap hits.

The question is could this D man play in our system and if not... find another one.
The answer is that he can't. He's not very good.

He was fine. Not sign again fine, but certainly bottom pairing defenseman fine. Which is more than can be said about the others you mentioned.

Nope... 27th..

They are 26th. You're ignoring games played.

It's also very similar to the D that Nonis built.

This team and the Nonis team are nothing alike.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I say signing.

Then you'd be wrong, because it's a waiver claim.

You say "no collusion" ... same difference.

Again, stop with the politics nonsense. It doesn't even make sense.

No... burning a year of ELC status is never beneficial

This is not true. There have been many circumstances where it has been beneficial for a team.

We always have choices...

What was the alternative?

There was plenty of evidence of usage above what the team... including doctors and analysts... agreed was optimal.

No, there was one study that you referenced and then misrepresented. "Optimal" doesn't mean any injury or struggles that happen are caused by slightly increased usage. Your argument falls apart even more due to the injury taking place during Andersen's biggest period of rest, and his struggles being year-long. Fatigue also doesn't impact somebody running into your head.

 

[killer1980]

for the maple leafs to make the playoffs or stay in the playoff hunt team needs at least two
tough and gritty (or stay at home) defencemen.

Don't worry they'll make the playoffs. It just might be an early exit.

 

[Pookie]

That doesn't erase cap hits.

Umm... yes it does. If a player plays for the Marlies, then the cap hit is not counted at the NHL level.

They are 26th. You're ignoring games played.

Yeah... silly me. I was going with the actual results.

This team and the Nonis team are nothing alike.

I have to concede on this point. This team and the Nonis team are nothing alike.

You are absolutely, 100% correct.

After game 58 in the 2014-15 campaign, the Nonis team had conceded 178 Goals Against.

2014-15 Toronto Maple Leafs

After game 58 in the 2019-20 campaign, the Dubas team has conceded 192 Goals Against.

Though both were ranked near the bottom in the NHL in that category... this year's version is obviously more porous when it comes to preventing goals.

I owe an apology to the legendary defense that consisted of Phaneuf, Percy, Gardiner, Franson, Holzer, Polak, Robidas, and the tandem of Bernier and Reimer.

Thanks dude for pointing that out

 

[Apotheosis]

I don't understand how people can blame Dubas at this point. He got a back up. Added bottom 6 grit. Brought in a coach that has turned the top 6 in to the best offence in the league since the coaching change (seriously, Matthews and Marner have been pacing for over 100 points since the switch), Nylander is torching the league compared to last season. And doing this without our third best winger, number 1 D and the worst statistical goaltending in the league since December. With even above average goaltending we would probably be right on Boston's tail right now. I am not worried in the slightest. This teams ceiling is effing huge.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

WTF are you focusing on his contract?

Lou would have buried a guy that couldn't play any more.

Face it... your Idol felt that Ceci could still play. That's why he's on the roster and earning 20+ mins a night...

... and part of the reason why we have slipped to 27th overall in GA.

You're completely missing the point.

Lou continued to play Zaitsev despite him being terrible for 2 years. It took less than halfway through the season for Dubas to get Ceci away from the roster (btw Ceci >= Zaitsev). Then you say Lou would've buried a guy like that ... Hence, why you're running around in a circle Pookie. Lou was literally in that situation and didn't do anything.

The reason we're at 26th in GA is:
1) Injuries (Our worst stretch of games was with both Muzzin and Rielly injured at the same time).
2) Goalies (Dubas screwed up the backup goalie situation with Hutchinson and Andersen's poor play since January is worse than Hutchinson's numbers). Hence the garbage GA.

 

[Pookie]

No, there was one study that you referenced and then misrepresented. "Optimal" doesn't mean any injury or struggles that happen are caused by slightly increased usage. Your argument falls apart even more due to the injury taking place during Andersen's biggest period of rest, and his struggles being year-long. Fatigue also doesn't impact somebody running into your head.

Maybe you'd like to hear from Andersen in terms of what the team discussed with him? Ideally, he said... less starts than last year.

Spoiler alert.. he had 60 starts last year.

 

[Jojalu]

If a Trumper can see it .... ... not sure why the Duber can't see it.

I am pretty sure Dubas can see it but I don't think it's always quite an easy fix.

Even you have to concede that the Leafs have suffered poor goaltending this year. Hutch can be linked to Dubas, but no one saw Andersoen having an off year.

Ceci seemed to be more of a one year stop gap while they waited for Sandin or Lily to be ready. It hasn't worked out.

I am holding judgement til the season plays out. I am not opposed to Dubas trying out his philosophy and I hope it works for the sake of the Leafs. He seems to be able to at least attempt to fix his mistakes instead of being bullish and refusing to adapt.

With another offseason under his belt I will concede that the pressure will and should be on next year if the Leafs have not made strides.

Rebuilds are never linear. If this is a bump on the road so be it. If the same thing occurs next year, it will be hard to say it's not a pattern and something will need to be done

 

[Dekes For Days]

Umm... yes it does. If a player plays for the Marlies, then the cap hit is not counted at the NHL level.

That is not true. Only a very small portion is taken off.

Yeah... silly me. I was going with the actual results.

I am also going the with actual results. More accurate results.

After game 58 in the 2014-15 campaign, the Nonis team had conceded 178 Goals Against.
After game 58 in the 2019-20 campaign, the Dubas team has conceded 192 Goals Against.

Because after 58 games in 2014-2015, that team was getting 17th ranked goaltending behind the 28th best defense.
After 58 games this year, the team is getting 22nd ranked goaltending behind the 15th best defense.

this year's version is obviously more porous when it comes to preventing goals.

No, goaltending has just been more porous when it comes to letting in goals.

 

[Pookie]

You're completely missing the point.

Lou continued to play Zaitsev despite him being terrible for 2 years. It took less than halfway through the season for Dubas to get Ceci away from the roster (btw Ceci >= Zaitsev). Then you say Lou would've buried a guy like that ... Hence, why you're running around in a circle Pookie. Lou was literally in that situation and didn't do anything.

The reason we're at 26th in GA is:
1) Injuries (Our worst stretch of games was with both Muzzin and Rielly injured at the same time).
2) Goalies (Dubas screwed up the backup goalie situation with Hutchinson and Andersen's poor play since January is worse than Hutchinson's numbers). Hence the garbage GA.

No circles buddy.

Totally agree Zaitsev had to go. Mainly because he wanted to go.

Ceci is not away from the roster. He's injured but in his last 5 games he's averaged over 17 mins a game.

Dubas screwed the back up situation and that led to overuse of Andersen and increased risk of injury. The position we are in is totally on Dubas and his decisions.

(Because I like you... here is a Debate Tip: stop focusing on GA. This is absolutely not a Dubas strength. If you want a good counter... talk about the offense which is absolutely excellent and one of the best we have had in decades... though not totally Dubas' doing... it's been enhanced since he got control)

 

[Dekes For Days]

Ideally, he said... less starts than last year.

"Ideally" =/= all injuries (including flukes) and struggles (that pre-date the supposed usage change) are because of his usage that is pretty consistent with previous years, despite zero evidence

 

[Craig Button]

It was a "Perfect Usage" eh?

Overuse and fatigue have nothing to do with injuries?

Ok, Fox and Friends. I'll stick with the Science on this one.

and what’s that?

 

[Pookie]

Because after 58 games in 2014-2015, that team was getting 17th ranked goaltending behind the 28th best defense.
After 58 games this year, the team is getting 22nd ranked goaltending behind the 15th best defense.

Hey... uh... sparky... who chose the goalies?

who chose the coach who rode one of the goalies out of necessity?

whose coach rode the one goalie out of necessity because the other goalie that the GM chose was really bad?

Gimme a D

Gimme a U

Gimme a B

Gimme a AS

Whatcha Got?

Dubas

And whatcha gonna Do?

Fire you

 

[Pookie]

and what’s that?

That overuse of muscles leads to fatigue and increased risk of injury.

 

[Pookie]

"Ideally" =/= all injuries (including flukes) and struggles (that pre-date the supposed usage change) are because of his usage that is pretty consistent with previous years, despite zero evidence

Did you see them peg the ideal number of starts in the 50's?

Like you watched it right? Saw Andersen say that they discussed that he should have less starts than last year.

Who do you think was involved in that decision?

 

[Gallagbi]

Feel like I'm going to regret jumping in, but here goes

When you claim a guy... you absorb him on your team and responsible for paying his contract and honoring the terms of the deal.

I say signing. You say "no collusion" ... same difference.

Seems obvious you made a mistake here and just don't want to admit it. Lou acquired Mac off waivers after his option failed. It wasn't a "signing", but it did work out.

It's okay to say that, no need to dance around your error, just say it wasn't a signing and move on.

No... burning a year of ELC status is never beneficial as the next contract is always more expensive than the league minimum.

Lou actually did this with Nylander, some teams have done it to leverage the second contract. I doubt it'll matter much either way with a player like Sandin who won't get top PP time on his ELC with Rielly around.

We always have choices... you are just used to seeing the wrong ones.

Was this the wrong one? Sandin's seemed fine, but I guess we could have gone with Gravel?

There was plenty of evidence of usage above what the team... including doctors and analysts... agreed was optimal.

70-75% was agreed. 85% was what Keefe did.

Two thoughts

1 - Does any of this take away from his poor play? He's had big minutes the past two years and played significantly better. Like I mentioned earlier, seems the less he plays the worse he gets.

2- the injury triggered Campbell's acquisition. While not a starter in my eyes, he may take us through Fred's poor play.

Analysts looked at other goalies to determine workload, not Fred specifically. As we know, not every goalie or human is the same.