Salary Cap: Dr StrangeDubas: "Defense sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid defense, Sully."

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Geno is definitely not elite anymore. I'm not even sure Sid is, and I think Sid is a clear step above where Geno's at nowadays. It is what it is, these dudes are approaching 40. /shrug

That's not to say either are bad, let me just get that out there because people love to be psychotically parasocial in their attachment of these dudes. But they're not the absolute class of the sport anymore.

 

[Gurglesons]

Geno is definitely not elite anymore. I'm not even sure Sid is, and I think Sid is a clear step above where Geno's at nowadays. It is what it is, these dudes are approaching 40. /shrug

That's not to say either are bad, let me just get that out there because people love to be psychotically parasocial in their attachment of these dudes. But they're not the absolute class of the sport anymore.

The list is awfully small for elite players if Sid isn't considered one.

Which is fine. But you're talking about 5 - 10 forwards that are "elite" then.

 

[Gurglesons]

If I'm looking at the Athletic article. I 100% agree that Sid is not in the realm of any players they consider "tier 1" at this point in his career.

I think you could make an argument for Sid over Jack Hughes, I guess.

People have this narrative that Geno has fallen off more than Sid but the facts don't support it. If you take into account 1) Sid's empty net points, 2) the fact that Sid gets 2 more min of ice time per game, and 3) quality of linemates, there really is not any gap in production between the two. My point is both Geno and Sid are still elite.

Yeah it is very strange how Malkin turning Zucker into one of the best 5v5 goal scorers in the league last year is overlooked.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The list is awfully small for elite players if Sid isn't considered one.

Which is fine. But you're talking about 5 - 10 forwards that are "elite" then.

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at. It's more due to age than ability (same with Geno). These dudes have a whole lot of hard hockey miles on them at this point and it's starting to show. The hands and talent are still there, and always will be, but they don't have the kinda motor they used to, or the ability to consistently take over and win games all by themselves anymore like they used to.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at. It's more due to age than ability (same with Geno). These dudes have a whole lot of hard hockey miles on them at this point and it's starting to show. The hands and talent are still there, and always will be, but they don't have the kinda motor they used to, or the ability to consistently take over and win games all by themselves anymore like they used to.

Luckily this shouldn't be as big of an issue with some of the moves we've made this summer.

That being said. Injuries hit and this team is in a whole world of trouble unless Poulin or DOC pulls a rabbit out of their ass.

I'm confident the D core can absorb an injury to EK or Letang relatively well.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Luckily this shouldn't be as big of an issue with some of the moves we've made this summer.

That being said. Injuries hit and this team is in a whole world of trouble unless Poulin or DOC pulls a rabbit out of their ass.

I'm confident the D core can absorb an injury to EK or Letang relatively well.

Yeah. I can sorta see the approach of the bottom-6 in terms of building it; don't have a group that's gonna be hemorrhaging goals or chances against every single time they jump over the boards. Which, if it works out as planned, should be okay. But like you said, if an injury or two of any significance/length happens in the top-6, it's gonna be pretty f***ed up watching Acciari or DOC try and fill in a scoring line role.

Can't say I'm super confident we're gonna get another healthy season out of Sid or Geno again, let alone both--and it remains to be seen what kind of effect Jake's ankle stuff is gonna have. Just gonna have to wait and see, I guess.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah. I can sorta see the approach of the bottom-6 in terms of building it; don't have a group that's gonna be hemorrhaging goals or chances against every single time they jump over the boards. Which, if it works out as planned, should be okay. But like you said, if an injury or two of any significance/length happens in the top-6, it's gonna be pretty f***ed up watching Acciari or DOC try and fill in a scoring line role.

Can't say I'm super confident we're gonna get another healthy season out of Sid or Geno again, let alone both--and it remains to be seen what kind of effect Jake's ankle stuff is gonna have. Just gonna have to wait and see, I guess.

I think a player like Puusy or Nylander can step up enough if a winger goes down.

The issue is if either Sid or Malkin are out our C options are essentially Eller, Carter or a young guy.

That being said look how Rodrigues and McCann did in those situations.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think a player like Puusy or Nylander can step up enough if a winger goes down.

The issue is if either Sid or Malkin are out our C options are essentially Eller, Carter or a young guy.

That being said look how Rodrigues and McCann did in those situations.

Yeah, center is the big issue. I'm not as confident Puustinen or Nylander are really f*** all--they're gonna need to seriously impress in camp to even be on the radar imo. Puustinen seems very feast or famine in that he'll either be a production contributor or absolutely nothing, and Nylander seems a lot like a really poor man's Granlund, which isn't saying much.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, center is the big issue. I'm not as confident Puustinen or Nylander are really f*** all--they're gonna need to seriously impress in camp to even be on the radar imo. Puustinen seems very feast or famine in that he'll either be a production contributor or absolutely nothing, and Nylander seems a lot like a really poor man's Granlund, which isn't saying much.

I think Nylander is meh but I could see Puustinen putting up like 6 goals in 20 games which is probably enough to get us through.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think Nylander is meh but I could see Puustinen putting up like 6 goals in 20 games which is probably enough to get us through.

Puustinen's more intriguing to me than pretty much all of the other fodder just because he's got a great shot, but a great shot is only one piece of the puzzle. He's gotta have the on-ice awareness and skating ability to position himself in a spot to use said shot, and he can't just be Kessel out there away from the puck or Sullivan will shit his pants and try to poison Puustinen's food.

Camp and pre-season should be just f***ing bonkers for combinations and trying stuff out. There's no reason not to imo. Hope they just go full send and have like Puustinen with Geno and Smith or something.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

A guy like Slavin for instance.

I'd maybe take a selke like defensive player like Elias Lindholm at centre for instance, because his offense isn't too far off from 1C production.

And it's not disrespectful to Geno, he's aging great. But he will get worse this season because of age, and he will be a pylon defensively.

Your example of a "two-way player" you'd take over Malkin is a defenseman who outscored Brian f***ing Dumoulin by 2 points last year.

I'll also take the guy who scored 83 points despite being flanked by wingers who couldn't crack 48 points over a guy who couldn't outscore Tyler Toffoli on his own line.

 

[reino]

Malkin was behind Stamkos and Tavares. LOL

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Is there another Slavin I'm not aware of?

The defenseman?

This is a weird conversation. Malkin is 37 years old and still putting up 80+ points with what I'd consider sub-optimal linemates and no cracks at EN points. At 6ish million dollars. I'll take it even if he's clearly not elite anymore.

 

[Andy99]

 

[Deport Ogie]

Malkin was behind Stamkos and Tavares. LOL

Man, contract never comes into these discussions which is fair but I think it should definitely be a consideration. Like, Stamkos or Tavares ahead of Malkin? I don't agree but I could at least listen. 6.1 mil Malkin behind 11 mil Tavares? Yeah GFY.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Is there another Slavin I'm not aware of?

The defenseman?

This is a weird conversation. Malkin is 37 years old and still putting up 80+ points with what I'd consider sub-optimal linemates and no cracks at EN points. At 6ish million dollars. I'll take it even if he's clearly not elite anymore.

Yeah. The uncomfortable truth is that if Crosby and Malkin switched linemates their statlines would likely switch too...if not skew even more towards Malkin.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah. The uncomfortable truth is that if Crosby and Malkin switched linemates their statlines would likely switch too...if not skew even more towards Malkin.

I mean I dunno... maybe? I try not to do the whole "you talk about one you MUST talk about the other" thing.

I just think it's pretty incredible that he still puts up numbers with small, defensively deficient, non-physical players that for all that aren't even particularly offensively slick to make up for it. And not one moment of EN time to help pad his numbers. I'm not trying to do the "woe is Geno" thing I just think there are few players I'd rather have for like 6M dollars to help allow the team to do things like... I dunno... hunt for 100 point defensemen they can add to the roster.

You take Malkin out of 2C and add some "two way player" to the likes of Zucker and Rust for an entire season and you are probably looking at an anemic offense. Maybe people like watching that slop I dunno.

 

[Ryder71]

Luckily this shouldn't be as big of an issue with some of the moves we've made this summer.

That being said. Injuries hit and this team is in a whole world of trouble unless Poulin or DOC pulls a rabbit out of their ass.

I'm confident the D core can absorb an injury to EK or Letang relatively well.

Absorb Letang maybe but not EK, not as far as his dynamic offensive abilities and that's the very reason why we acquired him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I mean I dunno... maybe? I try not to do the whole "you talk about one you MUST talk about the other" thing.

I just think it's pretty incredible that he still puts up numbers with small, defensively deficient, non-physical players that for all that aren't even particularly offensively slick to make up for it. And not one moment of EN time to help pad his numbers. I'm not trying to do the "woe is Geno" thing I just think there are few players I'd rather have for like 6M dollars to help allow the team to do things like... I dunno... hunt for 100 point defensemen they can add to the roster.

You take Malkin out of 2C and add some "two way player" to the likes of Zucker and Rust for an entire season and you are probably looking at an anemic offense. Maybe people like watching that slop I dunno.

Exactly.

 

[Deport Ogie]

The biggest thing with 71 that Pens fans that pay attention will always know that those outside the circle will not are, frankly, intangible type stuff. He was absolutely good enough that he could have wanted to go elsewhere and command, snickering as I say this, John Tavares money to be 1C. He decided instead to just hang around here and be a goofy affable oaf and play his ass off and be best friends with the guy ahead of him.

 

[Ryder71]

The list is awfully small for elite players if Sid isn't considered one.

Which is fine. But you're talking about 5 - 10 forwards that are "elite" then.

If you're ''elite'' it shouldn't be a big list. I don't put Sid there anymore, he's dropped a bit. If we're being honest about it that is.

Besides (and good timing I guess) but when I think ''elite'' I think of Hangman Adam Page, Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks!

 

[Ryder71]

I mean I dunno... maybe? I try not to do the whole "you talk about one you MUST talk about the other" thing.

I just think it's pretty incredible that he still puts up numbers with small, defensively deficient, non-physical players that for all that aren't even particularly offensively slick to make up for it. And not one moment of EN time to help pad his numbers. I'm not trying to do the "woe is Geno" thing I just think there are few players I'd rather have for like 6M dollars to help allow the team to do things like... I dunno... hunt for 100 point defensemen they can add to the roster.

You take Malkin out of 2C and add some "two way player" to the likes of Zucker and Rust for an entire season and you are probably looking at an anemic offense. Maybe people like watching that slop I dunno.

He did make a nice chunk of change for many years though. Don't get me wrong I love Geno, always liked him stylistically much more than Sid. But at his age and for four years that's not a bad contract when you consider his age, the likelihood of diminishing returns, and injury history. Seemed like a very fair deal. In fact I probably wouldn't have given him four years.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Here's the scoring for listed centers last year:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Malkin was 13th. How many of the players listed ahead of him had Rust/Zucker calibre or worse linemates?

I see zero.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I mean I dunno... maybe? I try not to do the whole "you talk about one you MUST talk about the other" thing.

I just think it's pretty incredible that he still puts up numbers with small, defensively deficient, non-physical players that for all that aren't even particularly offensively slick to make up for it. And not one moment of EN time to help pad his numbers. I'm not trying to do the "woe is Geno" thing I just think there are few players I'd rather have for like 6M dollars to help allow the team to do things like... I dunno... hunt for 100 point defensemen they can add to the roster.

You take Malkin out of 2C and add some "two way player" to the likes of Zucker and Rust for an entire season and you are probably looking at an anemic offense. Maybe people like watching that slop I dunno.

Like I said, Crosby gets Jake. Malkin gets a bunch of mediocrities that we're somehow hyped about?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Like I said, Crosby gets Jake. Malkin gets a bunch of mediocrities that we're somehow hyped about?

Well plenty of people DO try to make us hyped about them.

I can already hear the Rust White Knight Brigade™ thundering in to his defense in the distance.