Salary Cap: Dr StrangeDubas: “Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than 10-20 more goals against, tops.”

[mpp9]

Letting go of Guentzel for anything but an upgrade is a monumentally bad decision to make.

An upgrade is certainly what I would be after. EK is a coup in terms of adding another offensive catalyst outside of the core. But I don’t think we’re back contending until we make another move or two at wing.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

There is a huge difference on the on ice product.

My point is if the team was wanting to just keep up appearances keeping Petry as a 20 minute guy for 6.25 mil x 2 is probably an equivalent value to EK at 10 mil x 4.


The organization gave up futures and took on more raw dollars in a risky move to contend now. Doesn’t strike me as a move to just “keep up appearances”

They also rearranged the deck chairs of a bottom-6 that'll probably be among the lowest scoring in the league again, and signed a guy with a lot of question marks in goal for the next half a decade. So again, it's not like they were out there really trying new approaches to alter the trajectory they've been on. Karlsson was gift-wrapped and dropped into their laps, imo. They traded a 1st likely to be between 18-24th, a 2nd which I don't really think is much of an asset on its own, and a whole bunch of nothing for the guy. Other than that bit of fortune, they did just kinda keep things more or less the same. Graves in for Dumo is great, Smith in for Zucker is a minor upgrade imo, Jarry/Ned is basically Jarry/CDS. Bottom-6 is still dookie, Sully's still coaching. Shit, it's a damn good thing Karlsson happened now that I really think about the summer.

 

[Gurglesons]

They also rearranged the deck chairs of a bottom-6 that'll probably be among the lowest scoring in the league again, and signed a guy with a lot of question marks in goal for the next half a decade. So again, it's not like they were out there really trying new approaches to alter the trajectory they've been on. Karlsson was gift-wrapped and dropped into their laps, imo. They traded a 1st likely to be between 18-24th, a 2nd which I don't really think is much of an asset on its own, and a whole bunch of nothing for the guy. Other than that bit of fortune, they did just kinda keep things more or less the same. Graves in for Dumo is great, Smith in for Zucker is a minor upgrade imo, Jarry/Ned is basically Jarry/CDS. Bottom-6 is still dookie, Sully's still coaching. Shit, it's a damn good thing Karlsson happened now that I really think about the summer.

I mean you can minimize it, but saying they are just "playing it out" is objectively false.

I don't necessarily agree with the approach or think it results in a cup, but they clearly invested assets and money into icing a more competitive team this year. I feel it is tough to argue otherwise.

 

[Darren McCord]

There is a huge difference on the on ice product.

My point is if the team was wanting to just keep up appearances keeping Petry as a 20 minute guy for 6.25 mil x 2 is probably an equivalent value to EK at 10 mil x 4.


The organization gave up futures and took on more raw dollars in a risky move to contend now. Doesn’t strike me as a move to just “keep up appearances”

No one wanted petry at that hit. Petry was valued at a 4th at 2.43 million a year.

I don’t think it’s equivalent at all.

I mean sure if you go out and can get someone like a mier then don’t sign Jake. I just don’t know who you get. I also think Jake gets less here than people think if he resigns

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean you can minimize it, but saying they are just "playing it out" is objectively false.

I don't necessarily agree with the approach or think it results in a cup, but they clearly invested assets and money into icing a more competitive team this year. I feel it is tough to argue otherwise.

I'm not minimizing anything though. If EK hadn't demanded a trade after the season and eventually ended up with Pittsburgh (or a Carolina team that was never really all that interested in it anyway) as his preferred spot, this team's largely the same. A bottom-6 that can't score reliably whatsoever, question marks in goal, and a mess behind the bench. /shrug

It's cool that the team landed EK. But commending them for it seems off to me. It's like commending the Wings for signing a Marian Hossa that had every intention of going to Detroit, or the Canes for landing a Jordan Staal who made it publicly known he wanted to go to Carolina to play with his brother. EK rocks, but the team didn't exactly go out and poach an elite talent out of the blue. He chose to come to Pittsburgh, and Dubas made the no-brainer decision to shuffle around a buncha garbage with a late-ish 1st rounder as a garnish to serve up to Grier.

 

[Peat]

Just for clarity; I don't think it needs to come from a nefarious place for the team to simultaneously realize the era of competing is over, while still trying to keep up appearances. /shrug

I think that's how NHL teams operate by and large. Shit, sports teams in general. Though, again, I do think this team thinks just a *bit* too highly of themselves anymore. It's led to a stagnation that, by this point, I don't think can be fixed with gas left in Sid's tank.

The idea they're thinking too highly of themselves? Fair enough, although I'd point out that neither FSG nor Dubas have a whole bunch of emotional attachment to the Penguins to blind themselves with.

The whole realise they're done - whatever way it's put - requires a big assumption about the team that could very easily be wrong.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not minimizing anything though. If EK hadn't demanded a trade after the season and eventually ended up with Pittsburgh (or a Carolina team that was never really all that interested in it anyway) as his preferred spot, this team's largely the same. A bottom-6 that can't score reliably whatsoever, question marks in goal, and a mess behind the bench. /shrug

It's cool that the team landed EK. But commending them for it seems off to me. It's like commending the Wings for signing a Marian Hossa that had every intention of going to Detroit, or the Canes for landing a Jordan Staal who made it publicly known he wanted to go to Carolina to play with his brother. EK rocks, but the team didn't exactly go out and poach an elite talent out of the blue. He chose to come to Pittsburgh, and Dubas made the no-brainer decision to shuffle around a buncha garbage with a late-ish 1st rounder as a garnish to serve up to Grier.

I'm not commending it. I'm saying that you are acting like they are just trying to compete in name only. They just spent 40 mil and multiple assets to acquire EK65.

No one wanted petry at that hit. Petry was valued at a 4th at 2.43 million a year.

I don’t think it’s equivalent at all.

I mean sure if you go out and can get someone like a mier then don’t sign Jake. I just don’t know who you get. I also think Jake gets less here than people think if he resigns

If this team just wanted to create the appearance of being a team that was satisfied with playing out the cores remaining years they could've easily just kept Petry and bought out Granlund for much less money and assets.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not commending it. I'm saying that you are acting like they are just trying to compete in name only. They just spent 40 mil and multiple assets to acquire EK65.

They accepted a gift, while simultaneously keeping all other problem areas just as problematic. /shrug

Agree to disagree.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not commending it. I'm saying that you are acting like they are just trying to compete in name only. They just spent 40 mil and multiple assets to acquire EK65.



If this team just wanted to create the appearance of being a team that was satisfied with playing out the cores remaining years they could've easily just kept Petry and bought out Granlund for much less money and assets.

EK means butts in seats and jerseys sold though, and a better chance at that chunk of revenue from a playoff appearance.

 

[Andy99]

I think Dubas legit wants to give the core a chance to compete this upcoming season…if it fails however and they don’t win a PO game again or even get to the POs, I’d like him to pivot and just start selling off players…no reason we should be signing long term deals with anyone 30+, and we should try to get out of the ones we have

 

[PensandCaps]

Reinhart isn't in Guentzel's league lol. Inconsistent and kind of a PP Merchant.

Guentzel's 5v5 rates and production since he came into the league blow Reinhart's out the water. I'd shoot higher than Reinhart as a replacement.

 

[Peat]

Okay, and you're arguing that they should willingly downgrade at wing even if they want to win. Strikes me as sloppy thinking.

Ooh, saucy turnaround!

There's a whole bunch of ways of putting it, but I guess the easiest one here is that once they choose to pay Jake, they're downgrading or refusing to upgrade at some point on the team.

So that point is a sunk cost anyway. Can't be helped. It's just a matter of what to do about it that results in the team going forwards.

 

[PensandCaps]

If they’re out of the POs, they absolutely should trade him at the deadline…they’d get a first…

They aren't gonna be eliminated by the TDL. Even if they are on the outside they will still be contenders for a WC spot until the end of the year. Giving up and punting a year away because you're on the outside by a point or so at the TDL, is dumb. You add before selling, giving up on a year with EK and elite Sid and Geno is not sensible.

 

[Gurglesons]

Reinhart isn't in Guentzel's league lol. Inconsistent and kind of a PP Merchant.

Guentzel's 5v5 rates and production since he came into the league blow Reinhart's out the water. I'd shoot higher than Reinhart as a replacement.

I’d prefer a player like Reinhart who can help defensively with our top six and fits the net front presence we need on the PP personally.

 

[Darren McCord]

I'm not commending it. I'm saying that you are acting like they are just trying to compete in name only. They just spent 40 mil and multiple assets to acquire EK65.



If this team just wanted to create the appearance of being a team that was satisfied with playing out the cores remaining years they could've easily just kept Petry and bought out Granlund for much less money and assets.

You’re comparing keep bad players to keeping a good player. If Jake has a bad year and high demands sure let him go.

Granlund and petry was negative assets. Jake isn’t. So ya very different scenarios for me.

I get keeping jake is the easy path and they need to consider all option. But you don’t just let him walk and bring in a lottery ticket

 

[Gurglesons]

You’re comparing keep bad players to keeping a good player. If Jake has a bad year and high demands sure let him go.

Granlund and petry was negative assets. Jake isn’t. So ya very different scenarios for me.

I get keeping jake is the easy path and they need to consider all option. But you don’t just let him walk and bring in a lottery ticket

These are two different arguments and my point about Petry isn’t him versus EK65 as players. My point is if management just wanted to create the optics of a team staying competitive they wouldn’t make the EK65 move.

 

[Darren McCord]

These are two different arguments and my point about Petry isn’t him versus EK65 as players. My point is if management just wanted to create the optics of a team staying competitive they wouldn’t make the EK65 move.

Right and they also wouldn’t let Jake walk and bring in bertuzzi on a bloated deal. This decision won’t be made until the deadline at the earliest

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ooh, saucy turnaround!

There's a whole bunch of ways of putting it, but I guess the easiest one here is that once they choose to pay Jake, they're downgrading or refusing to upgrade at some point on the team.

So that point is a sunk cost anyway. Can't be helped. It's just a matter of what to do about it that results in the team going forwards.

What is actually your plan for replacing Jake and being competitive. With what/who?

 

[Andy99]

They aren't gonna be eliminated by the TDL. Even if they are on the outside they will still be contenders for a WC spot until the end of the year. Giving up and punting a year away because you're on the outside by a point or so at the TDL, is dumb. You add before selling, giving up on a year with EK and elite Sid and Geno is not sensible.

You’re assuming a lot…you don’t know what the circumstances of them being out may be…maybe Sid is injured and out for the remainder of the season…if the season is going south, he’s not doing his job if he doesn’t consider trading players who likely have value at the TDL…

 

[Peat]

What is actually your plan for replacing Jake and being competitive. With what/who?

Don't spend 9m on a winger whose ability to impact the game, both through production and through other means, is showing small but noticeable signs of decline and whose age means it's more likely to get worse than better.

Then work out the rest from there. I'm not going to be more specific than that because

a) I can't be more specific as it's unknown who will be available
b) Given the number of top six wingers that are usually available and the fairly non-stringent criteria I've set, I feel fairly sure something will be available
c) If you're willing to spend 9m on wingers, you're going to get production unless you make epicly bad decisions

 

[ChaosAgent]

Don't spend 9m on a winger whose ability to impact the game, both through production and through other means, is showing small but noticeable signs of decline and whose age means it's more likely to get worse than better.

Then work out the rest from there. I'm not going to be more specific than that because

a) I can't be more specific as it's unknown who will be available
b) Given the number of top six wingers that are usually available and the fairly non-stringent criteria I've set, I feel fairly sure something will be available
c) If you're willing to spend 9m on wingers, you're going to get production unless you make epicly bad decisions

The franchise has already signed players whose best days are behind them. I fail to see why we wouldnt also do it here. Especially when the alternative is throwing more assets away for an uncertain upgrade who may not be an upgrade. All Guentzel costs is money.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And Jake has done that for us in one of the last four playoffs he has been a part of. His lack of 5v5 production was also a big issue.

Not trying to diminish him as a player but this idea that Guentzel has been this absolute beast for us regularly over the last four years and is a must sign is what I disagree with.

If we re-sign him, I’ll be fine. My thing is that if this team wants to win another cup they need to get creative and with our limited assets we likely can not pull off Rust or Rakell out unless we get another EK65 situation where we are taking back cap and an older player.

I'll put Guentzel's recent track record up against any potential replacement that people might be targeting.

Rather than move on from our perennial best goal scorer in the regular season and playoffs, I think we'd be better served focusing on moving futures to shore up depth and diversify skillsets.

 

[Peat]

The franchise has already signed players whose best days are behind them. I fail to see why we wouldnt also do it here. Especially when the alternative is throwing more assets away for an uncertain upgrade who may not be an upgrade. All Guentzel costs is money.

Committing hostages to fortune is usually a good reason to cease doing so, not to keep doing it!

And what Guentzel costs is opportunity. He costs the ability to do other things for the roster. Get depth. Get guys who offer more than production. Get someone whose numbers doesn't imply they're actively bad for PP1 when they're stapled to it. You probably can't do all of those, but you can hopefully at least do some of them.



Here's a question for everyone who wants to keep Guentzel - how special do you think last season was? How much would you be willing to pay if that's what you were guaranteed to get?

 

[PensandCaps]

You’re assuming a lot…you don’t know what the circumstances of them being out may be…maybe Sid is injured and out for the remainder of the season…if the season is going south, he’s not doing his job if he doesn’t consider trading players who likely have value at the TDL…

Let's just hope Jake takes the same contract as his equal comparable in Debrincat. 7.8 is fine by me for Jake.

And Debrincat is definitely the better asset going forward aswell. More dynamic.

 

[pistolpete11]

Let's just hope Jake takes the same contract as his equal comparable in Debrincat. 7.8 is fine by me for Jake.

And Debrincat is definitely the better asset going forward aswell. More dynamic.

Debrincat was a RFA.