Doug Armstrong

[Blueston]

I don't consider the size factor significant when considering the loss of Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester.

Neither of those guys relied on size and strength.

I love JayBo but Parayko carried that pair last few years (even after JayBo resurgence). Hate that he went out this way but Scandella is at least as good as JayBo was last few years.

 

[Celtic Note]

I don't consider the size factor significant when considering the loss of Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester.

Neither of those guys relied on size and strength.

JBo was pretty physical the last few years. I think he was our most physical defenseman in our top 4.

 

[Celtic Note]

I love JayBo but Parayko carried that pair last few years (even after JayBo resurgence). Hate that he went out this way but Scandella is at least as good as JayBo was last few years.

Not sure I agree about Scandella being better than JBo during his resurgence years.

 

[EastonBlues22]

There are a lot of fans around the league who would love to enjoy some of that regular season given success. Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona, NY Rangers, Montreal, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Minnesota, etc (I’m sure there are others) have all been struggling to convert their rebuilds into the type of success the Blues established as a regular season performer. I think we as a fan base are getting a little entitled. It was probably more tolerable from the outside when the Blues were the hard luck team that suffered long but never won the Cup.

I don’t argue that Armstrong hasn’t made mistakes. I just think his accomplishments deserve more credit than they sometimes get.

That's true about other fanbases, but the Blues literally had decades of regular season success long before Armstrong ever came around, including a President's Trophy, to the point where regular season success was no longer the baseline measuring stick for a successful season by either the organization or the fans. Successful regular season GMs and coaches were being fired by the organization because they couldn't provide postseason success, even though some of those coaches/GMs were already sometimes getting more results out of less talent and resources, so it seems pretty fair for the fans to have adopted that expectation as well.

Even the one extended regular season slump we have had in this organization's history was largely self inflicted, given the nonsense that happened after the lockout with the sale to Checketts, and eventually later to the Lauries. Once the GM was once again supported by good ownership in 2012, and our ownership gave him pretty much every advantage he could ask for with regards to spending to the cap, etc., the regular season success once again followed pretty easily and immediately, and the expectations eventually rose again accordingly (see: end of Hitchcock).

I don't think Armstrong's regular season accomplishments are anything special, really, especially in a historical context for the Blues franchise specifically. He accomplished a lot, but he had two advantages that none of his predecessors here had together...ownership that supported one of the highest payrolls in the league, and a cap environment that assured a more level playing field among the highest spending teams in the league.

Regular season success and minimal playoff success is not a "win" for the organization or fans given those advantages, as it certainly wasn't before when those advantages were nonexistent, nor is it a demonstration of much besides an adequate level of competence as a GM. The real bar to clear is playoff success, and that's where Armstrong was (rightfully, IMO) being judged. For a long time he didn't, and then, to his credit, he finally did.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I don’t argue that Armstrong hasn’t made mistakes. I just think his accomplishments deserve more credit than they sometimes get.

I won't disagree with this. I would strongly argue though that prior to some point in the 2018-19 season that is after say January 3, 2019, Armstrong's accomplishments were wildly overstated in relation to what he had done and to what expectations were from the Blues fanbase.

Put another way: Larry Pleau got all kinds of shit for not accomplishing anything after we went to a WCF and the 2nd round 3x, losing to the eventual Cup champions all 4 of those times on top of losing to an eventual Cup champion a 5th time because he should have done more to build us a Cup-winning team. Armstrong's teams pre-19 had made the WCF once, the 2nd round 2x, and lost in the 1st round 3x with home ice advantage every time and had lost to the eventual Cup champions just once - but that was (still is) touted as a greater accomplishment because he was playing with the roster every year whether it really needed it or not, even though many thought we had better Cup-contending teams in that stretch.

 

[Blueston]

I won't disagree with this. I would strongly argue though that prior to some point in the 2018-19 season that is after say January 3, 2019, Armstrong's accomplishments were wildly overstated in relation to what he had done and to what expectations were from the Blues fanbase.

Put another way: Larry Pleau got all kinds of shit for not accomplishing anything after we went to a WCF and the 2nd round 3x, losing to the eventual Cup champions all 4 of those times on top of losing to an eventual Cup champion a 5th time because he should have done more to build us a Cup-winning team. Armstrong's teams pre-19 had made the WCF once, the 2nd round 2x, and lost in the 1st round 3x with home ice advantage every time and had lost to the eventual Cup champions just once - but that was (still is) touted as a greater accomplishment because he was playing with the roster every year whether it really needed it or not, even though many thought we had better Cup-contending teams in that stretch.

Pleau was a darn good GM. Never understood all the crap he got. But that shouldn’t take away from great job army has done. We take for granted that he quickly rebuilt roster without bottoming out. Cup or not, that is heckuva feat.

 

[simon IC]

I love JayBo but Parayko carried that pair last few years (even after JayBo resurgence). Hate that he went out this way but Scandella is at least as good as JayBo was last few years.

I disagree with you here. I like Scandella, but he is not as good as JayBo was, even in JayBo's later years. The difference is in the skating. Even at the end of his career, Bouwmeester was an elite skater. Scandella falls into the "skates well for a big guy" category, as much as that is a cliche. He isn't slow, but he can't hold a candle to JayBo in regards to skating.

 

[Ranksu]

I disagree with you here. I like Scandella, but he is not as good as JayBo was, even in JayBo's later years. The difference is in the skating. Even at the end of his career, Bouwmeester was an elite skater. Scandella falls into the "skates well for a big guy" category, as much as that is a cliche. He isn't slow, but he can't hold a candle to JayBo in regards to skating.

If Mikkola can really show up. He could potentially compete icetime vs Scandella. To me Mikkola is closer to replace hole what Jbo left.

And agree about writing Scandella - Jbo. + I still view Scandella's contract was too hesitate move like it was Faulk.

 

[Bluesguru]

Looks like this team has run its course.

With guys heading for free agency this off season and opening up options for Army to make moves and reconfigure the team. This might be our best shot at taking another run at a Cup.

Thoughts?

 

[GoldenSeal]

Looks like this team has run its course.

With guys heading for free agency this off season and opening up options for Army to make moves and reconfigure the team. This might be our best shot at taking another run at a Cup.

Thoughts?

They need to figure out what the problem is before they do anything.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I wondered when this topic was going to get resurrected. As a longtime critic of Doug Armstrong's tenure as an NHL GM, I'll even say any notion of cutting him loose right now over this is silly.

What should we do? This has to be an offseason where the cliche 5-year plan gets mapped out and all kinds of questions get asked up and down the on-ice product. Is there a problem with the roster, or is it all just injuries? Was 2019 real and a sign of what we can do going forward, or was it a fluke? If it wasn't a fluke, what do we have to do to regain our position among the league's elite? Is anyone safe on this roster? [Yes. Seriously.] What do the next few years look like, and how do we position ourselves to be contenders for it - or are we even in that spot?

Is Berube the right coach? I think so, maybe he's really not. If he is, what does he need to change to make us more successful? Do we need different assistants here? What the hell is our game strategy? What should special teams look like? How do we get guys ready and in the right mindset for '21-22? Do we need to adapt something on the off-days so we can get guys effectively coached even if they can't be on the ice? Do we turn some of that to the players and ask them to try and figure it out?

We're in a really delicate spot IMO. There's little margin for error if things aren't completely right, and we're seeing that right now. Not that I expect us to be Tampa-quality down the guys we've lost, but we've pissed away several games now just from dumb mistakes and lack of focus. We shouldn't be constantly looking at the press box saying well when we get _____ back, that will make everything better. It hasn't, it's probably not going to. This will by far be Armstrong's most challenging offseason, he has to come up with answers to questions he's never had to deal with and how he responds is going to shape his tenure here for a while.

 

[BlueKnight]

I think it's time to fire Armstrong. Before you flame me let me say, yes he built a cup winning team but he also destroyed the same cup winning team. He had a cup winning captain and #1 defenceman and he screwed him over and signing lesser players to long term contracts and what not. And now the team is a shell of it's former self.

There's a reason why the Dallas Stars fired him and just have to take a look at the Blues right now to see why the Stars fired him.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

I think it's time to fire Armstrong. Before you flame me let me say, yes he built a cup winning team but he also destroyed the same cup winning team. He had a cup winning captain and #1 defenceman and he screwed him over and signing lesser players to long term contracts and what not. And now the team is a shell of it's former self.

There's a reason why the Dallas Stars fired him and just have to take a look at the Blues right now to see why the Stars fired him.

Repeating this ad nauseam doesn’t make it true. Sure, there’s the potential that it is true, but there are no details of what Army offered beyond total dollars and that bonus money was included, so we don’t know exactly what the sticking point was for negotiations. Could’ve been the NMC, could’ve been the bonus money, could’ve been both, could’ve been Petro and his agent doing everything they could to squeeze Army for every dollar, hell, it even could’ve been that Petro’s agent thought they could get an even bigger contract than he did from Vegas.

 

[Xerloris]

There's a reason why the Dallas Stars fired him and just have to take a look at the Blues right now to see why the Stars fired him.

I don't think you know why he was fired. While Armstrong was Gm the stars had no playoff success and he made sure to "keep the band together" instead of letting players walk. His contracts were what hurt the team in the salary cap era. IMO he's learned and now he's willing to let that player walk to do what's best for the team. Good for him.

 

[Ranksu]

Btw why Army did get fired from Dallas?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Btw why Army did get fired from Dallas?

Dallas was going for broke pre-lockout. That was their stated goal, win the Cup or bust. Armstrong hired Dave Tippett to do that; Tippett led them to a division title in '02-03, a runner-up finish in '03-04 and a division title in '05-06 and then the next season the Stars were 3rd in the Pacific with 107 points. By season they put up 111, 97, 112 and 107. For that, the Stars went

• out in the 2nd round [beat Edmonton in 6, lost to Anaheim in 6]
• out in the 1st round [lost to Colorado in 5]
• out in the 1st round [lost to Colorado in 5]
• out in the 1st round [lost to Vancouver in 7]

That last one was the series where Marty Turco was 1.30, .952 and the only games he won were games where he blanked the Canucks. That included a 4OT loss to open the series, the next 2 games where Dallas scored all of 2 goals, and the series finale where Dallas also scored only one goal and the Canucks potted a pair of empty-netters late.

After the Stars got off to a slow start the following season and blew a 4-goal, 3rd period lead vs. Los Angeles, he got the boot.

 

[Cotton McKnight]

One player lost to free agency does not make it time to kill the GM. A team not being held together because of contract amounts going up on resignings in a flat cap situation in the salary cap era does not make it time to kill the GM. A team that is falling back to earth (plus a ton of injuries) does not make it time to kill the GM. This team was not going to win it all with Petro this year, and that does not make it time to kill the GM. We have to take our lumps and watch what DA is going to do. I would not want to be in his shoes, because it is possible that the 2019 Blues were a one trick pony.

Or

DA gets fired and we have to hold our breath during the shakiness of a rebuild.

Either way, we still get to watch Blues hockey and I'm going to do my darndest to make the best of it.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

If we keep losing, here is how the ownership tightens the screws...

1) Trade someone big....do the players take note?
2) Dump the coach....do the players respond?
3) Sell off and begin rebuild

I think we are nearing #1. Anybody remember when we dumped Paul Stasny?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Any credible suggestion to fire Armstrong needs to be paired with a name or two of someone you think would do a better job, so we can discuss. Just blindly firing him is the kind of nonsense I’d expect a drunk to spout on the Asylum. There’s no intelligent discussion to follow. It’s also a really bad idea.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I think we'll probably see #1 happen. If we're to believe Armstrong after he fired Yeo, he's not firing another coach without moving out core players on this roster. [Cue comment from February 1, 2017 about independent contractors.] Probably not happening at this trade deadline, probably over the summer around the expansion draft.

I don't know what #2 accomplishes near-term. After a massive shake-it-up deal, if we're still not performing, then this becomes a topic of discussion. I don't buy that Berube is responsible for lazy puck-handling, guys not back-checking, lack of defensive awareness leaving guys wide open in danger areas, and so on. Not to say I might be totally pleased with his rumored approach to games, but even presuming that's all true it doesn't mean guys can't show some hustle, some awareness, some smarts. Plus, if #2 happens near-term, it's throwing Berube under the bus for the team's problems but a tacit admission by Armstrong that he's failed in his job and it should raise the question so why should you keep your job through yet another head coach?, even with a 2019 Stanley Cup Champions banner hanging at Enterprise Center. Again, I don't think we're at that point of judgment for Armstrong [yet?] and I think a kick in the head to the current core is much more likely.

We're not doing #3 any time soon. I think it's more likely we double-down trying to preserve what we have, even at the cost of mortgaging more of the future. I don't think we do that immediately, we might try to salvage a pick or so right now, but if this team rebounds into that 7-12 range in the league I can easily see us forking over future assets to try and bump to the 3-5 range or better and try to make another Cup run.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I see two areas of immediate concern. A bigger move seems pretty unlikely to me to occur this season before the deadline for multiple reasons. Teams are all facing the expansion draft and the flat Cap ramifications make player movement harder.

1) Going with Binnington on back to back nights is a message about how Berube views Husso. It’s what we all see. Husso’s proponents talk about future potential, and it may be there. But what is not there is current day performance. The coaches don’t seem to trust him in a game bs Anaheim. It’s a problem.

2) Tarasenko is pretty spotty. He makes some good player and then seems to mentally check out for a bit. His turnovers have been annoying to painful. Much of this can be attributed to rust he simply has to play through. But what is on the side of that rust? Will we see a guy worthy of top 6 ice time and game situations? I really don’t know what to think. I’ve yet to see him unleash a shot that looked like healthy Vlad.

 

[mk80]

I wondered when this topic was going to get resurrected. As a longtime critic of Doug Armstrong's tenure as an NHL GM, I'll even say any notion of cutting him loose right now over this is silly.

Is Berube the right coach? I think so, maybe he's really not. If he is, what does he need to change to make us more successful? Do we need different assistants here? What the hell is our game strategy? What should special teams look like? How do we get guys ready and in the right mindset for '21-22? Do we need to adapt something on the off-days so we can get guys effectively coached even if they can't be on the ice? Do we turn some of that to the players and ask them to try and figure it out.

If I'm doing my math right (likely I'm not), next season would be year 3 on Berube's contract extension signed after the Cup. I don't think he's the problem this season, so I would say ride out his 3rd and final year and then evaluate the coaching from there.

I do think one coaching aspect that hasn't been addressed since the Cup run, remember we brought in Larry Robinson behind the bench to take over the defense, and that was a huge part of resurgence that season.

I see two areas of immediate concern. A bigger move seems pretty unlikely to me to occur this season before the deadline for multiple reasons. Teams are all facing the expansion draft and the flat Cap ramifications make player movement harder.

1) Going with Binnington on back to back nights is a message about how Berube views Husso. It’s what we all see. Husso’s proponents talk about future potential, and it may be there. But what is not there is current day performance. The coaches don’t seem to trust him in a game bs Anaheim. It’s a problem.

To play devil's advocate just a bit I'd argue that is as much or more of a statement by Berube on Binnington to go back to back to say "Ok Minnesota wasn't perfect, but it's your team and it's your net". Now to be fair we also need to secure as many points as possible and Husso is very much still an unproven commodity, but with one more game before 4 nights off, it's a situation you can afford to go back to Binnington on that back to back.

I do think going forward Husso will become a more stable NHL goalie, and I see the potential. But I would let him walk at the end of the season and bring in a more established backup goalie.

Overall right now I feel like the construction of our current team, especially defensively, does not match a Berube coaching style. Although as a disclaimer I may get that feeling due to the number of injuries and players plugging the holes.

 

[Ranksu]

Is Berube the right coach? I think so, maybe he's really not. If he is, what does he need to change to make us more successful? Do we need different assistants here? What the hell is our game strategy? What should special teams look like? How do we get guys ready and in the right mindset for '21-22?

Chief I trust, but we could use some assistant coach who specializes transition game, bring best of mobile and offensive dmen attributes out there. I view Krug, Faulk and Dunn best attributes are washed away how our defensive system is build up.

I dont have any idea of our powerplay setup it's all over the place. Need upgrade Montgomery.

Mindset I dont believe that is case this season. It's just confidence thing a d success feeds success.

We are just mediocre on defensive side of game. Need new identity for our d-group.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Any credible suggestion to fire Armstrong needs to be paired with a name or two of someone you think would do a better job, so we can discuss. Just blindly firing him is the kind of nonsense I’d expect a drunk to spout on the Asylum. There’s no intelligent discussion to follow. It’s also a really bad idea.

Given that a ‘rookie’ goaltender and a limited xp coach led the way to a Cup, how do we know a ‘nobody’ as GM couldn’t get us another Cup?

The one thing people continue to ignore is how the Blues aren’t a ‘paper’ team. We defy that all over the place, especially on the run. It’s obvious that this teams greatest strength lies in the player interaction with one another. Gloria made it click and that’s where we should have stayed. Don’t move players, accept that some would retire or injure out and deal with the replacement though -team- consensus and needs. Fact is we’re back to where we were before the run and I’m curious who we let go or traded that made the room click.

To me it’s like this: Once you lift the Cup like we did, THAT CULTURE is more important than anything and anyone in that room. It’s the one thing we never had and once we got it, it was the first thing that got shuffled away.

We’re missing a piece and regardless of who you think is better, we need what’s best to make the team work. Maybe it was Pie, maybe Pat Maroon or even Steen, who if he isn’t in the Org as a coach should be. We want to win, we need to hold on to that culture when we do as tight as we can.

Army rolled the dice a handful of times with us and finally won. That doesn’t make him a great GM, it makes him lucky. What he does next will show us who he really is and I believe we get help at the TDL not because I necessarily believe in Army but because I believe in us.

If he can do that, Army won’t just be a great GM for bringing home the Cup, but a great one period.

Make it happen, Army.

 

[GoldenSeal]

I see two areas of immediate concern. A bigger move seems pretty unlikely to me to occur this season before the deadline for multiple reasons. Teams are all facing the expansion draft and the flat Cap ramifications make player movement harder.

1) Going with Binnington on back to back nights is a message about how Berube views Husso. It’s what we all see. Husso’s proponents talk about future potential, and it may be there. But what is not there is current day performance. The coaches don’t seem to trust him in a game bs Anaheim. It’s a problem.

2) Tarasenko is pretty spotty. He makes some good player and then seems to mentally check out for a bit. His turnovers have been annoying to painful. Much of this can be attributed to rust he simply has to play through. But what is on the side of that rust? Will we see a guy worthy of top 6 ice time and game situations? I really don’t know what to think. I’ve yet to see him unleash a shot that looked like healthy Vlad.

I’m going to say this purely as a hypothetical, but why not send Tarasenko+ out to get someone else in whose a playmaker/finisher?