Doug Armstrong

[AjaxManifesto]

I think Petro is a HOF caliber player, but Army did the right thing here and let him walk. A contract is an agreement between a GM and a player. It is not a money-guarantee like Petro wanted it to be. That's on Petro and not Army.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Ranksu]

I think Petro is a HOF caliber player, but Army did the right thing here and let him walk. A contract is an agreement between a GM and a player. It is not a money-guarantee like Petro wanted it to be. That's on Petro and not Army.

Vegas valued Pietro over Blues. It will come up some point in future how valuable player Blues let walk away.

I view this is one the biggest turning point of this team. Hopefully it turn out to be positive, but I'm afraid it isnt.

Pietro type of franchise players doesnt grow on trees. Once in 20-year span you might draft same type of player. Not even mention he develops to top5 NHL dmen. He needs to be healthy etc. You know the drill.

Basically you created hole when you take away big stone, the foundation and now Army tried to fill that that hole with small stones and we know it wont be same, it will collapse.

 

[BlueOil]

I think Petro is a HOF caliber player, but Army did the right thing here and let him walk. A contract is an agreement between a GM and a player. It is not a money-guarantee like Petro wanted it to be. That's on Petro and not Army.

if pietro is hall of fame caliber, that means players like letang and doughty are too. that bar feels too low. if pietrangelo has a spectacular second half to his career with vegas, i could see the hall of fame nod discussion start, but i don't think his time in st. louis warrants that discussion anywhere outside of st. louis fans' hearts.

 

[The Note]

if pietro is hall of fame caliber, that means players like letang and doughty are too. that bar feels too low. if pietrangelo has a spectacular second half to his career with vegas, i could see the hall of fame nod discussion start, but i don't think his time in st. louis warrants that discussion anywhere outside of st. louis fans' hearts.

Not to get too far off base here but Doughty is almost definitely making the HOF. 2 Cups, a Norris, 2x Olympic Gold medal for Canada. Barring something catastrophic he’ll get 1,000+ games and ~600 points. I’d be shocked if he doesn’t make it and, frankly, he’s got a better case than someone like Kevin Lowe who just got in.

 

[Stlblue50]

Hate Doughty but he is and was without question a better player then Petro. The Kings going into rebuild/injuries has slowed him down

 

[BlueOil]

Not to get too far off base here but Doughty is almost definitely making the HOF. 2 Cups, a Norris, 2x Olympic Gold medal for Canada. Barring something catastrophic he’ll get 1,000+ games and ~600 points. I’d be shocked if he doesn’t make it and, frankly, he’s got a better case than someone like Kevin Lowe who just got in.

fair enough, doughty was a bad example. simply trying to point out not every franchise D belongs in.

 

[BlueKnight]

Vegas valued Pietro over Blues. It will come up some point in future how valuable player Blues let walk away.

I view this is one the biggest turning point of this team. Hopefully it turn out to be positive, but I'm afraid it isnt.

Pietro type of franchise players doesnt grow on trees. Once in 20-year span you might draft same type of player. Not even mention he develops to top5 NHL dmen. He needs to be healthy etc. You know the drill.

Basically you created hole when you take away big stone, the foundation and now Army tried to fill that that hole with small stones and we know it wont be same, it will collapse.

I agree with you Ranksu, You hit the nail on the head.

The Blues let a franchise Dman walk away because Army didn't offer a NMC, I understand Armstrong's reasonings for not handing out no movement but he should've put his ego aside and showed better judgment and offered Petro a no movement. Not offering one is downright disrespectful considering Petro's significance to team history by being the first captain to lift the cup.

In my 22+ years of watching the NHL I've never been angry with a team as I am at the Blues right now can't believe the Blues did something stupid like that. Army created a hole by being stubborn and he is now filling them with square pegs.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Too much talk about HOF. We’ve had countless players in the HOF, don’t care about the HOF, I care about the Cup and the ability to win more and that’s a team chemistry thing and once you got it, you do NOT F-k with it.

Talk all the Prongers, Choppers, WHOEVER you want but NONE of them won a Cup in St. Louis and that’s all I or any other Blues fan should care about.

Won a Cup through overcoming adversity through sheer will and character, cool! Secure your team, improve upon it and go for another Cup and that’s where Army has failed. He’s made the team weaker, not stronger. He’s let his own ideology get in the way of practicality and has set his relationship to the players in a negative way because of that and it will affect morale.

 

[The Electrician]

He's no Pronger, but who is really? He's better than MacInnis though.

This is crazy talk.

 

[Reality Czech]

He's no Pronger, but who is really? He's better than MacInnis though.

You take that back right now! I am a big Petro fan, but I think MacInnis was still better than Petro right up until his eye injury late in his career. A first ballot HOFer and one of the best ever.

Some of you guys are really being too hard on Army....how about we wait and see what happens before passing judgment on his offseason moves? He should have earned a bit more trust from fans after building our Cup winning team.

 

[Zezel’s Pretzels]

All roads lead to Petro.

 

[bluesXwinXtheXcup]

I think those that believe Pietrangelo is better than MacInnis never saw Al play.

It's not even close.

 

[BlueMed]

I think those that believe Pietrangelo is better than MacInnis never saw Al play.

It's not even close.

What part of Al's game is better than Alex's outside of his slap shot? I've watched both play, and Petro has far superior skating, stickhandling, and passing AINEC.

 

[Reality Czech]

What part of Al's game is better than Alex's outside of his slap shot? I've watched both play, and Petro has far superior skating, stickhandling, and passing AINEC.

It's not easy to compare players from different eras and they had different skill sets, no doubt. The game is played differently and Petro is probably more suited to today's game than MacInnis, but you could say the same thing about Al and his era. I disagree that Petro is a better passer, and MacInnis' offensive numbers are far better than Petro's. Both played top minutes in all situations, but I just feel Al was tougher and more of a presence on both ends of the ice. He won a Norris, a Cup, Conn Smythe and was a first ballot HOFer, so his peers agree on his credentials. When I think of Al MacInnis I automatically think "all-time legend" but I wouldn't say the same about Petro. I see him as a tier below that, which is still pretty damn good.

Don't wanna derail the Army thread though. If we're talking about what went down with Petro and Army, I don't really need to hear anything else after hearing both guys give their thoughts on the subject. Both sides made a business decision that made sense from their point of view. We will see how it works out.

 

[MissouriMook]

What part of Al's game is better than Alex's outside of his slap shot? I've watched both play, and Petro has far superior skating, stickhandling, and passing AINEC.

Petro is probably a better skater, though that wasn't as big of a deal in Mac's era so that is hard to say for sure. I think Mac was superior in IQ and vision and was much better at running the PP. People remember his shot because it was, well, memorable, but forget how good he was on the pivot and at moving the puck to set up chances down low. I think people see his assist numbers and just assume that it was from deflections or rebounds of his point shots, but he was so much more than that.

I think people also forget how good Al was defending with his stick, an area where Petro is one of the best in the current era, but I would say they are comparable to a slight edge to Petro. Al was hands down the more physical of the two and didn't always need to use his stick in puck battles because he could just as easily muscle you off the puck despite not being what would be considered a "banger" in his day.

The idea that Petro's career body of work is somehow worthy of him being declared "better than MacInnis" is laughable. Petro is one of the top 5-10 defensemen right now, but that =/= "better than MacInnis". I think MacInnis gets chronically underrated because he was typically the 2nd best defenseman on the roster behind Pronger.

 

[BlueMed]

Petro is probably a better skater, though that wasn't as big of a deal in Mac's era so that is hard to say for sure. I think Mac was superior in IQ and vision and was much better at running the PP. People remember his shot because it was, well, memorable, but forget how good he was on the pivot and at moving the puck to set up chances down low. I think people see his assist numbers and just assume that it was from deflections or rebounds of his point shots, but he was so much more than that.

I think people also forget how good Al was defending with his stick, an area where Petro is one of the best in the current era, but I would say they are comparable to a slight edge to Petro. Al was hands down the more physical of the two and didn't always need to use his stick in puck battles because he could just as easily muscle you off the puck despite not being what would be considered a "banger" in his day.

The idea that Petro's career body of work is somehow worthy of him being declared "better than MacInnis" is laughable. Petro is one of the top 5-10 defensemen right now, but that =/= "better than MacInnis". I think MacInnis gets chronically underrated because he was typically the 2nd best defenseman on the roster behind Pronger.

Show me where I stated that Petro's career body of work makes him better than MacInnis. You literally just made that up. This whole time I've kept the comparison about their respective skills and abilities (skating, stickhandling, passing, shooting, etc). And for the record, skating is and always has been the most important skill in the game. It didn't "just become" relevant in today's era. Players today are so much more skilled than they were 20-30 years ago that it's quite difficult to appreciate because everyone in the NHL is so good.

 

[Xerloris]

I agree with you Ranksu, You hit the nail on the head.

The Blues let a franchise Dman walk away because Army didn't offer a NMC, I understand Armstrong's reasonings for not handing out no movement but he should've put his ego aside and showed better judgment and offered Petro a no movement. Not offering one is downright disrespectful considering Petro's significance to team history by being the first captain to lift the cup.

In my 22+ years of watching the NHL I've never been angry with a team as I am at the Blues right now can't believe the Blues did something stupid like that. Army created a hole by being stubborn and he is now filling them with square pegs.

It doesn't matter who had the C on their jersey, everyone here knows it was ROR that lead this team in the playoffs.

 

[mike1320]

It doesn't matter who had the C on their jersey, everyone here knows it was ROR that lead this team in the playoffs.

Bingo! I'd be willing to bet that ROR and Berube had way more to do with us winning a Cup.

 

[BlueKnight]

It doesn't matter who had the C on their jersey, everyone here knows it was ROR that lead this team in the playoffs.

 

[MissouriMook]

What part of Al's game is better than Alex's outside of his slap shot? I've watched both play, and Petro has far superior skating, stickhandling, and passing AINEC.

Show me where I stated that Petro's career body of work makes him better than MacInnis. You literally just made that up. This whole time I've kept the comparison about their respective skills and abilities (skating, stickhandling, passing, shooting, etc). And for the record, skating is and always has been the most important skill in the game. It didn't "just become" relevant in today's era. Players today are so much more skilled than they were 20-30 years ago that it's quite difficult to appreciate because everyone in the NHL is so good.

I think the part where you implied that the only thing MacInnis was better at than Petro was his slap shot led to the conclusion that you were implying that "Petro's career body of work makes him better than MacInnis", but I apologize if it appeared I was putting words in your mouth. I'd be interested to hear how you can reconcile your (apparent) position that Petro is the superior player with respect to their "skills and abilities (skating, stickhandling, passing, shooting, etc)", except for their slap shots, without implying that "Petro's career body of work makes him better than MacInnis". I'm honestly having trouble reconciling just where you're at on this comparison.

 

[BlueMed]

I think the part where you implied that the only thing MacInnis was better at than Petro was his slap shot led to the conclusion that you were implying that "Petro's career body of work makes him better than MacInnis", but I apologize if it appeared I was putting words in your mouth. I'd be interested to hear how you can reconcile your (apparent) position that Petro is the superior player with respect to their "skills and abilities (skating, stickhandling, passing, shooting, etc)", except for their slap shots, without implying that "Petro's career body of work makes him better than MacInnis". I'm honestly having trouble reconciling just where you're at on this comparison.

It's simple. Body of work refers to one's accomplishments throughout their career (trophies, season awards, points, etc). The HOF often makes decisions based on a player's body of work. This is separate from a player's skill level and abilities on the ice. When comparing players, it is always more logical to compare their skills (skating, stickhandling, shooting, passing, etc). I quite honestly do not care about a player's points or accomplishments because they depend on many things (linemates, team style, ice time, usage, commitment to defense, etc). However, I do appreciate a player's absolute skill level having played ice hockey growing up. When comparing two players (X is better than Y), it always comes down to comparing the individual skills between the players, which are independent from other factors like linemates, team style, ice time, usage, etc.

When I am comparing Petro to McInnis, it comes down to what they can do on the ice (skating, stickhandling, shooting, passing etc).

 

[MissouriMook]

It's simple. Body of work refers to one's accomplishments throughout their career (trophies, season awards, points, etc). The HOF often makes decisions based on a player's body of work. This is separate from a player's skill level and abilities on the ice. When comparing players, it is always more logical to compare their skills (skating, stickhandling, shooting, passing, etc). I quite honestly do not care about a player's points or accomplishments because they depend on many things (linemates, team style, ice time, usage, commitment to defense, etc). However, I do appreciate a player's absolute skill level having played ice hockey growing up. When comparing two players (X is better than Y), it always comes down to comparing the individual skills between the players, which are independent from other factors like linemates, team style, ice time, usage, etc.

When I am comparing Petro to McInnis, it comes down to what they can do on the ice (skating, stickhandling, shooting, passing etc).

So maybe we were looking at apples and oranges here. I thought the discussion was about who was the better player based on MacInnis' career and Petro's career to date. My point was that I believe that anyone who thinks Petro's career to date points to him being the superior player believe that because they either did not see MacInnis play, or had their opinion of him blunted by the presence of Pronger, who was the superior player even when they were playing on the same team. You talked quite a bit in your responses about how you compare players, but I don't get the feeling you've answered the question. Who do you think is/was the better player, Petro or MacInnis?

 

[Mike Liut]

The two debates are:

1) Is Petro a HOFer?
2) Is Petro better than Macinnis?

I’d vote no on both quite easily.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Poor Doug Armstrong. Can’t have his own thread without it turning into a Pietro HOF discussion.

 

[GoldenSeal]

The two debates are:

1) Is Petro a HOFer?
2) Is Petro better than Macinnis?

I’d vote no on both quite easily.

Too early for this discussion. Ask it again in 5 years.