Management Don Sweeney II - All Sweeney Talk Here

[BruinDust]

A lot of posters are forgetting what Sweeney inherited.

-They were in cap hell
-The farm system sucked

They were likely destined to be a bottom third team for a long, long time if those two issues didn’t get fixed.

Sweeney fixed them both in a short turnaround and for that even his harshest critics should give him some credit

I don't think either of those are true at all.

The minute Dougie Hamilton made it clear he wasn't coming back and Sweeney made the decision to move him for only draft picks, any cap issues went out the window. Even then, the contract situation he inherited wasn't that bad and I'd argue considering the buy-outs of Seidenberg and Hayes, the retention of salary of Beleskey, and now the albatross that is Backes, he's actually made the cap situation worse in the long-run.

Meanwhile, he inherited a system that included Pastrnak, Donato, Heinen, Bjork, Vatrano, Czarnik, Johansson, Cehlarik, Fitzgerald, Blidh, Subban, Gryz, Benning. Not a bad way to start.

It's easy to rebuild a farm system when you have literally TWELVE draft picks in the Top 60 over the course of 4 consecutive drafts.

So he added Carlo, Debrusk, and McAvoy with picks the Bruins already owned before he took over.

And he's been successful in adding a multitude of 3rd-4th line Forwards, bottom-pair D-men, and back-up goaltenders. That's the truth, that's the reality of his work over the past 4 years. Even then, his acquisitions (both drafted and non-drafted) account for in terms of man-games, roughly 6 players out the 19 who typically appear in a game on average during his tenure. That means on average the other 13 players were part of the organization before he got here.

 

[bp13]

Only 1 of Toronto Boston or Tampa will have a deep playoff run

If it’s not Tampa it’s a huge upset

That's fine, but the question is whether he has/will do enough to put them in the best position to beat those teams to make a long playoff run. There's no way he came in here with a 5+ year plan to get this team into contention, right? So we are in year 4 and we are still using "we play in the same division as Toronto and TB as our excuse/crutch for the guy?" Sorry but that's weak.

He's whiffed on major signings, not pulled off a single hockey trade of any any note EVER, and we are 4 years into his tenure with what, a 7-11 playoff record and no 3rd rounds? Also, we came into this season with two gaping, important holes on the roster, neither of which has been filled? And we're gonna call that making an earnest effort to beat TB and Toronto in the playoffs? You can run around singing the praises of a guy with that record, but I'm not buying it.

He's competent. Competent doesn't win championships. He needs to pick it up.

 

[Riverfront]

I Would not trade a first round pick or prospects. Perhaps a current roster player for a 3rd line centre and
take your chances in the playoffs. It will be a crapshoot in the playoffs anyways even with a panarin in the
line-up. By the looks of it they will face Toronto in the first round and that series can go either way. It will
depend on goaltending , injuries at the time and which team is playing there best for that 1 week period
that is going to win that series, no use mortgaging the future for that.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

I Would not trade a first round pick or prospects. Perhaps a current roster player for a 3rd line centre and
take your chances in the playoffs. It will be a crapshoot in the playoffs anyways even with a panarin in the
line-up. By the looks of it they will face Toronto in the first round and that series can go either way. It will
depend on goaltending , injuries at the time and which team is playing there best for that 1 week period
that is going to win that series, no use mortgaging the future for that.

When does "the future" become "the now"? I wouldn't trade the first rounder unless we're getting a stud back (with term -- Whether that's a Stone w/ extension or whatever). I would trade prospects. They all will not make it or play. I wouldn't waste prospects on low end pieces that aren't going to get us anywhere. If we're trading for a 3LC, I want a legit T6RW coming in another deal. They need to add both to have a chance.

I don't agree at all with your reasoning for not wanting to make trades involving these pieces. Those reasons would prevent you from ever making a trade then. What if a legit add is the reason you're playing the best hockey for that 1 week period? Or for that playoff period? Playoffs are a crap shoot (I guess?). The better your team is, the better chance you have though.

 

[Over the volcano]

I don't think either of those are true at all.

The minute Dougie Hamilton made it clear he wasn't coming back and Sweeney made the decision to move him for only draft picks, any cap issues went out the window. Even then, the contract situation he inherited wasn't that bad and I'd argue considering the buy-outs of Seidenberg and Hayes, the retention of salary of Beleskey, and now the albatross that is Backes, he's actually made the cap situation worse in the long-run.

Meanwhile, he inherited a system that included Pastrnak, Donato, Heinen, Bjork, Vatrano, Czarnik, Johansson, Cehlarik, Fitzgerald, Blidh, Subban, Gryz, Benning. Not a bad way to start.

It's easy to rebuild a farm system when you have literally TWELVE draft picks in the Top 60 over the course of 4 consecutive drafts.

So he added Carlo, Debrusk, and McAvoy with picks the Bruins already owned before he took over.

And he's been successful in adding a multitude of 3rd-4th line Forwards, bottom-pair D-men, and back-up goaltenders. That's the truth, that's the reality of his work over the past 4 years. Even then, his acquisitions (both drafted and non-drafted) account for in terms of man-games, roughly 6 players out the 19 who typically appear in a game on average during his tenure. That means on average the other 13 players were part of the organization before he got here.

You’re kind of disproving your point - it was his decision to deal Hamilton for picks that helped solve the cap and it was the picks he acquired from that deal an lucic’s that added a bunch of those picks to give them the opportunity rebuild the farm. Those are some things that he did to solve those problems that he inherited.

 

[missingchicklet]

I will grade Sweeney once the summer is over. I think a GM needs 4 years before he can adequately be graded, unless he makes a total mess of things or lights the world on fire out of the gate. Sweeney has done neither overall. Sweeney has done some very good things, as well as some profoundly stupid things. He has had several drafts now, had time to address roster holes, and make trades. After this summer he will have had four full years. The rubber will meet the road in regard to three things for Sweeney: what he does at the deadline, how the Bs do in the playoffs, and what he does over the summer to improve the team. If another deadline and summer go by and DS is still sitting on all of his prospects and the same holes in the lineup are not addressed then I will say it's time for DS to be replaced. He cannot be allowed to continue wasting any more years of the talented veteran core due to hesitancy and half-assed moves. He wasn't brought in to take over and build a team with a ceiling of winning a round or two of the playoffs. Right now in his fourth year that is where the team stands. He can change that. Only question is does he have the will and/or the ability?

 

[BruinDust]

You’re kind of disproving your point - it was his decision to deal Hamilton for picks that helped solve the cap and it was the picks he acquired from that deal an lucic’s that added a bunch of those picks to give them the opportunity rebuild the farm. Those are some things that he did to solve those problems that he inherited.

But that's kinda the point. He made one move, and they wanted to re-sign Hamilton so he helped make their decision for them. So Sweeney decided to move him strictly for draft picks. I'm not saying it's a bad move, but were talking one move over the course of 4 years. And a pretty easy move really, clearly wasn't hard to find a taker for his asking price. Even moving half of Lucic's contract wasn't difficult he was still highly regarded at the time. Had he moved out say Seidenberg's or Kelly's at the time, I would of been a lot more impressed.

Fact is, Sweeney inherited a very good core, the same core group that is here today. And inherited a decent prospect pool, particularly from the 2014 draft. He had some cap issues but it was far from some "Cap Hell" mythology that he seems to get credit for.

 

[Over the volcano]

But that's kinda the point. He made one move, and they wanted to re-sign Hamilton so he helped make their decision for them. So Sweeney decided to move him strictly for draft picks. I'm not saying it's a bad move, but were talking one move over the course of 4 years. And a pretty easy move really, clearly wasn't hard to find a taker for his asking price. Even moving half of Lucic's contract wasn't difficult he was still highly regarded at the time. Had he moved out say Seidenberg's or Kelly's at the time, I would of been a lot more impressed.

Fact is, Sweeney inherited a very good core, the same core group that is here today. And inherited a decent prospect pool, particularly from the 2014 draft. He had some cap issues but it was far from some "Cap Hell" mythology that he seems to get credit for.

So you are giving him credit for solving those problems - just downplaying how big those problems were and how easy it was for him to do?

 

[UncleRico]

I know it’s always tough to look back and say Sweeney should have done this or made that move, but I honestly wonder what this teams record would be right now if Sweeney had gone out and signed Either one of a 2nd line RW or a 3rd line center.

 

[BruinDust]

So you are giving him credit for solving those problems - just downplaying how big those problems were and how easy it was for him to do?

As for the farm system it really wasn't a problem IMO. And the contributions the Bruins have gotten from their farm system have been mostly from players here prior to Sweeney's promotion.

But your exactly right, I am downplaying the cap problem because it really wasn't that big of a problem when you really look at it, at least in my opinion.

 

[Over the volcano]

As for the farm system it really wasn't a problem IMO. And the contributions the Bruins have gotten from their farm system have been mostly from players here prior to Sweeney's promotion.

But your exactly right, I am downplaying the cap problem because it really wasn't that big of a problem when you really look at it, at least in my opinion.

Who did you have as their top prospects when Sweeney took over?

Subban, morrow, Koko, spooner were right up there... Heinen and Donato were hanging around but pretty far under the radar. Who else was there.. Seth Griffith?

—edit —- after a little hunting found this thread from the time. A good read to compare the state of the organization. Prospects/Rookies you would like to see get a serious shot in training camp

 

[BruinDust]

Who did you have as their top prospects when Sweeney took over?

Subban, morrow, Koko, spooner were right up there... Heinen and Donato were hanging around but pretty far under the radar. Who else was there.. Seth Griffith?

—edit —- after a little hunting found this thread from the time. A good read to compare the state of the organization. Prospects/Rookies you would like to see get a serious shot in training camp

I already posted my list of quality prospects already here under Sweeney. Doesn't matter how far "under the radar" they were. He inherited a solid group, like I said a lot of that strength came from the 2014 draft. And it's the inherited group that has paid the most dividends THUS FAR. It could certainly and will likely change as time moves on and we see how many true hits and misses he had.

I'm just tired of this narrative, this fiction, that Sweeney inherited some massive catastrophic disaster of a franchise and magically turned things around.

 

[Over the volcano]

I already posted my list of quality prospects already here under Sweeney. Doesn't matter how far "under the radar" they were. He inherited a solid group, like I said a lot of that strength came from the 2014 draft. And it's the inherited group that has paid the most dividends THUS FAR. It could certainly and will likely change as time moves on and we see how many true hits and misses he had.

I'm just tired of this narrative, this fiction, that Sweeney inherited some massive catastrophic disaster of a franchise and magically turned things around.

Hindsight is a funny thing.

Just for reference - this is who you saw at the time as the best chance to crack the lineup

Best chances:

Morrow
Ferlin
Trotman (although I think he's a given on a one-way deal for next year)

Morrow looked good in his stint with Boston earlier the year. Played a simple steady game. 3 years now in the AHL, time for him to graduate to the big club.

A dark-horse for me is Arnesson. He's inexperienced but he has a good head for the game and decent skill-set. Stranger things have happened.

Ferlin to me is the perfect guy to build a 4th line around. Big, good wheels, decent skill, surprisingly physical in his time with the Bruins in February.

I think Lindblad, Khokhlachev, Randell, and Griffith have legitimate chances.

Would love to see Camara emerge on the other side of that 4th line with Ferlin but doesn't look like he's developed as expected in Providence.

A few other guys like Florek, Carey and Jeremy Smith I would consider but I believe they are all Group 6 UFAs so who knows if any of them are back.

Best for Subban to get another year in the AHL and for the Bruins to bring in an experienced NHL back-up.

We should also remember that before he was GM Sweeney was the assistant GM focused on player development. Not sure you could remove his influence from the kids he inherited.

 

[BruinDust]

Hindsight is a funny thing.

Just for reference - this is who you saw at the time as the best chance to crack the lineup



We should also remember that before he was GM Sweeney was the assistant GM focused on player development. Not sure you could remove his influence from the kids he inherited.

Well if I ever needed proof on how &^&%& a GM I'd be, that post is it.

I'm not disregarding Sweeney's AGM work, I just can't give him credit for it as I don't know how much of it is him.

Bottom line, the team/organization/prospect pool/etc. that were here prior to the day Sweeney was promoted, wasn't bad. At all. He stepped into a really good situation as far as being a new GM goes IMO.

 

[rocketdan9]

If Sweeney doesnt do anything by the trade deadline. How disappointed will you be?

 

[chizzler]

As for the farm system it really wasn't a problem IMO. And the contributions the Bruins have gotten from their farm system have been mostly from players here prior to Sweeney's promotion.

But your exactly right, I am downplaying the cap problem because it really wasn't that big of a problem when you really look at it, at least in my opinion.

The core of Chiarelli’s problem was he didn’t draft good. This made him resign players and made him go out in the free agency instead of having cheap 1st year contracts. His cap problems are known. I don’t know where you get this “ he came into a good situation” from, when clearly they had issues. The pool was empty and the cap made them lose Boychuk.

 

[ODAAT]

The core of Chiarelli’s problem was he didn’t draft good. This made him resign players and made him go out in the free agency instead of having cheap 1st year contracts. His cap problems are known. I don’t know where you get this “ he came into a good situation” from, when clearly they had issues. The pool was empty and the cap made them lose Boychuk.

the combination of drafting poorly while handing out inflated contracts with NTC/NMC was disastrous, he made the same mistakes we have seen other GM`s make, team wins Cup or Cups, gets a bit more expensive but many GM`s just get too loyal to those who helped you win it

Look at the Hawks and Kings and some of the contracts involving players from their Cup wins, some ugly contracts there

 

[BruinDust]

The core of Chiarelli’s problem was he didn’t draft good. This made him resign players and made him go out in the free agency instead of having cheap 1st year contracts. His cap problems are known. I don’t know where you get this “ he came into a good situation” from, when clearly they had issues. The pool was empty and the cap made them lose Boychuk.

But that's all pre-Sweeney. Boychuk was gone. Chiarelli didn't draft well is kind of a myth too. He whiffed really on 3 consecutive drafts (07, 09, 09) but 2010 onward was pretty good, but it was that 3 year gap that hurt the Bruins coming off their cup win. By the time Chiarelli was canned the system was back in decent shape.

I really don't have the time to sit down and figure out exactly what Sweeney was working with when he took over in May/June of 2015, but I can almost guarantee you most new NHL GMs would be quite grateful to take over an organization such as the Bruins were at that time, with a core group the caliber of what they had already in place.

 

[Mr. Make-Believe]

If Sweeney doesnt do anything by the trade deadline. How disappointed will you be?

Not only if he does nothing... But if he adds nothing of real value? I'd be on the hunt for a new GM.

However (as strongly worded as that may be) I actually have confidence that Sweeney will do something significant.

 

[Over the volcano]

Well if I ever needed proof on how &^&%& a GM I'd be, that post is it.

I'm not disregarding Sweeney's AGM work, I just can't give him credit for it as I don't know how much of it is him.

Bottom line, the team/organization/prospect pool/etc. that were here prior to the day Sweeney was promoted, wasn't bad. At all. He stepped into a really good situation as far as being a new GM goes IMO.

Think he’s made the situation look better than it was by his decisions with Lucic and Hamilton and his patience and development of kids in the system. It was far from a pretty picture at the time.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

Not only if he does nothing... But if he adds nothing of real value? I'd be on the hunt for a new GM.

However (as strongly worded as that may be) I actually have confidence that Sweeney will do something significant.

Just a hypothetical here.... If the Bruins were to fire Sweeney, can we go outside the organization please? Because I'm frightened by the thought of firing Sweeney and Neely or JFJ (even worse) taking the reins.

 

[finchster]

People are really over valuing the work Sweeney has done so far.

People act like the Bruins were stuck in cap hell laden with terrible contracts, while nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[bp13]

Not only if he does nothing... But if he adds nothing of real value? I'd be on the hunt for a new GM.

However (as strongly worded as that may be) I actually have confidence that Sweeney will do something significant.

Well I think the bolded word it key.

I don't think it's even conceivable that the Bruins would fire him this offseason no matter what given their likely regular season finish and the playoff gates he'll be bringing in for JJ, but if he failed to add anything of value I'd agree it'd be time to find a better option before we waste too many more years of key vets. I mean being a GM requires some level of aggression. If he goes through the year doing nothing for this roster, that's criminal.

That said, "significant" is the key word. Is this year's version of Rick Nash "significant"? So, call it Kovalchuk or Simmonds. If all he does is add one of those old guys with big games and receding games, is that "significant"? What if he goes younger but potentially less impactful, like Coyle?

 

[finchster]

That said, "significant" is the key word. Is this year's version of Rick Nash "significant"? So, call it Kovalchuk or Simmonds. If all he does is add one of those old guys with big games and receding games, is that "significant"? What if he goes younger but potentially less impactful, like Coyle?

It's much less who but what the player does. Sweeney has yet to get an impact player (top-6 forward, top-4 defencemen) either via trade or free agency and his attempts have fallen flat (Hayes, Backes, Beleskey, Nash). For me, it doesn't have to be a big name player, but a player whom the pro-scouts get right, fits the the top-six, and makes the Bruins better.

 

[BruinDust]

Think he’s made the situation look better than it was by his decisions with Lucic and Hamilton and his patience and development of kids in the system. It was far from a pretty picture at the time.

May not of been pretty, but was far from a disaster either. You won't find much sympathy for a GM who took over a team with Bergeron, Marchand, Krejci, Pastrnak, Krug, Chara, and Rask already on-board.

His long-game looks good, the assumption right now is they have a deep prospect pool, even if it is more quantity than quality. Long-term the future of the Bruins looks much better than it was when he took over. Once again, he traded two star players for lottery tickets. Not a challenging task for an NHL GM.

His short-game IMO leaves a lot to be desired. His player (not draft pick) acquisitions from trade/free agency/waivers have been anywhere from average (Wagner, Moore, Riley Nash, Schaller, Rick Nash, etc. ) to bad (Rinaldo, Liles, Stempniak, etc.) to flat out brutal (Backes, Beleskey, Hayes). Not one single player acquisition he's made in almost 4 years I would describe as unquestionable great move. His best player acquisition might just be Chris Wagner, and that's saying something. Is that him, or Neely, or the pro scouts, a combination of all of them? I don't know .I just know the list of guys his CHOSEN to acquire outside of the draft, is just brutal.