Does Pittsburgh have enough two way forwards to win the Cup?

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's not two-way forwards, they simply don't have the depth. They're too top-heavy and became more top-heavy this offseason.

Why do people keep repeating this when it's the exact opposite?

 

[Machinehead]

Why do people keep repeating this when it's the exact opposite?

Because it's not?

The Penguins take 40% of the shot attempts when Crosby and/or Malkin aren't on the ice. That's abhorrent.

 

[Beauner]

Because it's not?

The Penguins take 40% of the shot attempts when Crosby and/or Malkin aren't on the ice. That's abhorrent.

Acquiring Kessel pushes Kunitz out of the top 6. Plotnikov pushes Dupuis out too. The bottom 6 will be completely different than last year. People aren't taking this into consideration when looking at the lineup.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Because it's not?

The Penguins take 40% of the shot attempts when Crosby and/or Malkin aren't on the ice. That's abhorrent.

Plotnikov-Sutter-Dupuis
Sundqvist-FA-Bennett

only 2 of those guys were even on the team for most of last year.

 

[Machinehead]

Acquiring Kessel pushes Kunitz out of the top 6. Plotnikov pushes Dupuis out too. The bottom 6 will be completely different than last year. People aren't taking this into consideration when looking at the lineup.

Plotnikov-Sutter-Dupuis
Sundqvist-FA-Bennett

only 2 of those guys were even on the team for most of last year.

The problem with the Penguins for years now according to their metrics, is that they rarely have the puck and produce no offense when those two aren't on the ice. I'm not sure they've addressed that. Their big acquisition in Phil Kessel certainly doesn't; he's a woeful possession player. This won't be a noticeable detriment for the Pens because 1)he'll be playing with one of Crosby or Malkin who could carry my 64-year-old father and 2)Toronto is black hole so it's very possible his numbers aren't as bad as they appear on a halfway decent team. Still, it doesn't improve the issue.

The 3rd line is very interesting. Kunitz is a good solid possession player. The RW depends on how Plotnikov shakes out but either he or Dupuis are passable options. The line is still centered by Brandon Sutter who is just a deplorable shot-generator and shouldn't be in anyone's top 9 anywhere.

When Kunitz was in his prime and they had James Neal who is one of the best possession wingers in the league, the Pens thrived with players that went and got the puck for the big guns. Hornqvist is good but still a downgrade and Kunitz isn't that player. That's what was missing IMO from a team we usually see near the top of the standings.

Phil Kessel does NOT address this. He'll put in everything Crosby feeds him but Crosby will have to do EVERYTHING else. That was exactly the problem last year.

 

[mpp9]

Phil Kessel is a woeful possession player? Um. I don't think you understand possession metrics. Look a bit deeper.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Because it's not?

The Penguins take 40% of the shot attempts when Crosby and/or Malkin aren't on the ice. That's abhorrent.

Why are you talking about last season?

With Kessel pushing Kunitz down and Dupuis back, that gives them three former 20 goal scorers on their third line alone.

They also won't have Adams or Glass anchoring down their fourth line for the first time in five years. Rust or Wilson could play with one arm and still contribute more offensively than those two. If Plotnikov can be a decent fourth liner that cycles the puck well and can actually you know not being a complete black hole offensively like Adams/Glass, their fourth line will be massively upgraded.

 

[Machinehead]

Phil Kessel is a woeful possession player? Um. I don't think you understand possession metrics. Look a bit deeper.

Career 48.7% CF player.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Lets be clear here, Neal may have better possession numbers but Kessel is a significantly better player.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The problem with the Penguins for years now according to their metrics, is that they rarely have the puck and produce no offense when those two aren't on the ice. I'm not sure they've addressed that. Their big acquisition in Phil Kessel certainly doesn't; he's a woeful possession player. This won't be a noticeable detriment for the Pens because 1)he'll be playing with one of Crosby or Malkin who could carry my 64-year-old father and 2)Toronto is black hole so it's very possible his numbers aren't as bad as they appear on a halfway decent team. Still, it doesn't improve the issue.

The 3rd line is very interesting. Kunitz is a good solid possession player. The RW depends on how Plotnikov shakes out but either he or Dupuis are passable options. The line is still centered by Brandon Sutter who is just a deplorable shot-generator and shouldn't be in anyone's top 9 anywhere.

When Kunitz was in his prime and they had James Neal who is one of the best possession wingers in the league, the Pens thrived with players that went and got the puck for the big guns. Hornqvist is good but still a downgrade and Kunitz isn't that player. That's what was missing IMO from a team we usually see near the top of the standings.

Phil Kessel does NOT address this. He'll put in everything Crosby feeds him but Crosby will have to do EVERYTHING else. That was exactly the problem last year.

This just tells me you stat watch.

Neal was atrocious on the boards and earned his nickname "lazy" almost every time he went over the boards. A typical Neal shift consisted of him lazily hovering above the circles while Malkin did the lion's share of the work. When he accidentally had to fight for a puck, he consistently lost the battle, then couldn't be bothered to move his feet.

 

[Machinehead]

Lets be clear here, Neal may have better possession numbers but Kessel is a significantly better player.

Not even close.

Goals per game:

Neal - 0.38
Kessel - 0.36

Points per game

Neal - 0.73
Kessel - 0.77

Production is comparable, and Neal is irrefutably a better all-around player aside from scoring.

 

[mpp9]

Career 48.7% CF player.

Again, context.

I don't think he's some possession beast, but it's interesting how other players were worse off without him. He started quite a large portion of his shifts in the D-zone on a bad team defensively. Other star players have it far easier.

 

[Machinehead]

This just tells me you stat watch.

Neal was atrocious on the boards and earned his nickname "lazy" almost every time he went over the boards. A typical Neal shift consisted of him lazily hovering above the circles while Malkin did the lion's share of the work. When he accidentally had to fight for a puck, he consistently lost.

He's lazy and sucks along the boards and yet his team takes 53% of the shots when he's on the ice over the last 8 years. I guess he's using voodoo.

 

[mpp9]

Not even close.

Goals per game:

Neal - 0.38
Kessel - 0.36

Points per game

Neal - 0.73
Kessel - 0.77

Production is comparable, and Neal is irrefutably a better all-around player aside from scoring.

The guy who was on pace for 45 pts this year without Malkin? That guy?

 

[Machinehead]

Again, context.

I don't think he's some possession beast, but it's interesting how other players were worse off without him. He started quite a large portion of his shifts in the D-zone on a bad team defensively. Other star players have it far easier.

I said Kessel was in a bad situation and won't be a problem for the Penguins. My point is, he's not a solution.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Not even close.

Goals per game:

Neal - 0.38
Kessel - 0.36

Points per game

Neal - 0.73
Kessel - 0.77

Production is comparable, and Neal is irrefutably a better all-around player aside from scoring.

thanks. Now I know I don't need to worry about arguing with you. It will save me some time.

 

[Machinehead]

The guy who was on pace for 45 pts this year without Malkin? That guy?

Also on pace for 28 goals and a 58% possession player. Yeah that guy.

 

[Penguinator]

My point is, he's not a solution.

You aren't either with your bubble stats, i therefore highly recommend you visit this thread for educational purposes.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1925211

 

[Machinehead]

Even Neal's production of .33 goals per game not on the Penguins isn't far off from Kessel's production.

Somebody please explain to me how Kessel is significantly better than a player he doesn't significantly outscore. I'd love to hear it.

 

[mpp9]

Also on pace for 28 goals and a 58% possession player. Yeah that guy.

So 12 fewer goals than his career high while playing on one of the league's best lines for a playoff team.

Kessel has his worst season of his career and scores 3 fewer than what Neal was on pace for while playing with a terrible center on a lottery team.

Try and hold two thoughts in your mind at one time. It'll help.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He's lazy and sucks along the boards and yet his team takes 53% of the shots when he's on the ice over the last 8 years. I guess he's using voodoo.

Neal fires the puck from every angle. He's a complete gunner that rarely passes up a chance to throw the puck on net. He will fire the puck from 40 feet out instead of trying to beat a guy 1-1 (because he lacks the hands and foot speed to do it).

I lost count how many times Neal killed a rush as a Pen by gunning the puck on net from 30-40 feet out, despite what was going on around him.

This is exactly what happens when people stat watch and don't actually watch players. Good luck finding a Pens fan who will tell you Neal was good on the boards or some hustling, puck possession monster.

 

[Machinehead]

Neal fires the puck from every angle. He's a complete gunner that rarely passes up a chance to throw the puck on net. He will fire the puck from 40 feet out instead of trying to beat a guy 1-1 (because he lacks the hands and foot speed to do it).

I lost count how many times Neal killed a rush as a Pen by gunning the puck on net from 30-40 feet out, despite what was going on around him.

This is exactly what happens when people stat watch and don't actually watch players. Good luck finding a Pens fan who will tell you Neal was good on the boards or some hustling, puck possession monster.

And Kessel is?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Even Neal's production of .33 goals per game not on the Penguins isn't far off from Kessel's production.

Somebody please explain to me how Kessel is significantly better than a player he doesn't significantly outscore. I'd love to hear it.

because Kessel can do it on his own. He's faster, he's a better passer and he's a better stickhandler. Neal is an average player with an elite shot. Neither is a good forechecker or good defensive player. The shots are about equal, Kessel is equal or better in every other way.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And Kessel is?

I've seen Kessel play over 200 times as a Leaf and both he and Neal are ass along the boards.

The difference between Kessel and Neal is that Kessel can do it all by himself. He doesn't need help to score goals, like Neal. He's not a one trick pony that sloths his way up the ice looking to be a trigger man like Neal.

Kessel will create more space for Malkin and Crosby like they haven't seen since Hossa was a Pen for a whole two months. Kessel is also a hell of a playmaker, again, unlike Neal.

Kessel will actually make Crosby and Malkin better, not be a leech like Neal was. But you have to have actually watched these two guys play to know all of this, not stare at some silly stat line.

 

[Bending and Tending]

Even Neal's production of .33 goals per game not on the Penguins isn't far off from Kessel's production.

Somebody please explain to me how Kessel is significantly better than a player he doesn't significantly outscore. I'd love to hear it.

Kessel's PPG in Toronto was only .4 behind Neal in Pittsburgh...and it is expected that Kessel will get more points, whereas Neal has regressed. It's still early for a side-by-side, but it looks like Kessel will have a solid edge.