Does Pittsburgh have enough two way forwards to win the Cup?

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Lots of questions too,they are probably all good prospects atm .But having them all just make your team, and excel is wishful thinking

The top nine is pretty set, assuming no more moves are made.

The one thing the Pens farm is loaded with is bottom six talent. If one guy doesn't work out, there are literally half a dozen guys with speed and tenacity that could take his place.

At some point, you have to figure the odds say one or two of those guys could stick on their fourth line.

Sundqvist as I said before, is the biggest wildcard to their bottom six. If he does well, it opens up endless possibilities with his size and skill, as well as his versatility to play pivot or at wing. If he struggles, things obviously won't look as good.

 

[Russian Factor]

Lots of questions too,they are probably all good prospects atm .But having them all just make your team, and excel is wishful thinking

That's reasonable. They aren't necessarily HUGE question marks though, IMO. Plotnikov is someone who we hope competes for top 6. It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to say he would be a real good 3rd liner given we hope he cracks much higher in the lineup. I don't get my hopes up for him skating with Geno so I put him a little lower on the 3rd line where most agree he'd be very well suited.

Bennett may be underwhelming production wise but he is an excellent possession player already. So he would be good at least in that respect regardless. Even if he top out at like 30 points with excellent possession that would be great for that role.

Dupuis is the biggest question mark but in a reduced role I think he would excel. If there is one guy that I would bet on it is that guy. If not? No worries his spot can be taken by one of the younger guys.

YOunger guys like Rust and Wilson looked pretty good when they were up. As for Sheary, he put up great numbers in the AHL last year. He's small but if we've learned anything of late it's that size is getting less important in hockey. Sundqvist is a guy people are calling our future 3C so I don't think it's a stretch to have him getting sheltered minutes in a fourth line role. Worst case scenario there we can slot in a replacement for 4C easy.

So, yeah a few question marks but that is to be expected at this very very early stage. Mostly very encouraging considering past years.

 

[stepdad gaary]

I know you're trying to be edgy but Kunitz looked really bad from what I saw last year. It's not about passing a birthday that makes someone finished. It's about declining play. When that decline coincides with age there are always going to be concerns. With Dupuis it's age + injuries.

I'm not trying to be edgy. I'm saying they may not be as good as they were but they're still useful

 

[wej20]

I know you're trying to be edgy but Kunitz looked really bad from what I saw last year. It's not about passing a birthday that makes someone finished. It's about declining play. When that decline coincides with age there are always going to be concerns. With Dupuis it's age + injuries.

Kunitz was getting way too many minutes last year, the acquisition of Kessel and Plotnikov (plus the return of Dupuis) should mean that he's playing 15-16 minutes instead of 18 minutes.

 

[Midnight Judges]

While their top 4 combined for 116 man games lost

I would say that was actually pretty impressive.

Actually, lacking durability is a bad thing, not a good thing.

 

[BruinsNeedaRussian]

Anything can happen with that offensive fire power, but I would not bet on their chances with their D and lack of two way forwards. Not to mention Fleury in the playoffs..

 

[aufheben]

Sidney Crosby is the best two way forward in the NHL

I guess the question is which gap is larger, their offensive or defensive games? Toews and Crosby have almost an identical (Crosby's is actually higher) 5-on-5 GF% over the last 5 years.

And yes the Selke is a crock of ****. I remember the one year Callahan finished way higher than Stepan. -__-

 

[Ducks in a row]

Some of the posts I can't tell if someone is being serious or sarcastic so I am responding as if serious.

Yes Toews is definitely the best player in the world it's hard to argue. His two-way play is generational.

His intangibles are generational

Toews is not a generational player

And Toews would hit 100 points every year, if he wasn't so willing to sacrifice his generational scoring ability for his defense.

Plus, he has the misfortune to have Kane on his team, who hogs all of the PP points.

Datsyuk was able to have back to back 97 point seasons while being elite defensively Toews just instead so good offensively.

toews and kane are just flat out better. No ifs ands or buts about it. Pretty simple if you ask me.

No they are not better team success doesn't make someone better. No I in team. Get back to me when Toews takes the Blackhawks on his back to lead them to a Cup and Kane does the same thing. So far the Blackhawks have won because of having so many very good players and having good depth.

I tend to agree. If they were to trade maybe Malkin or Crosby + for a guy like Jonathan Toews, their chances at a cup would sky rocket.

Nope it doesn't. Toews would not be playing with Hossa one of the if not best wingers when it comes to defensive game and would not have two defense pairs that are rock solid that he could be on the ice with as well so his defensive game would not be enough. Penguins need as much offense as they can get with how little production they get from lower lines.

I don't agree with this. It's definitely not their strength, but they won't lose in the playoffs because of their bottom 6. Their forward group is top 5 in the league IMO. The reason they won't win a cup is because their defense is horrible. Very little depth, and one injury will sink them.

Injury problems was huge this past playoffs. In the past goaltending wasn't good. One year Penguins lost to Bruins in 4 games they scored 2 goals just 2 goals offense was a problem in that series depth forwards did nothing. Penguins needed more offense outside of Crosby and Malkin.

Toews > Crosby and Malkin combined...so I'm not exactly sure why we need this thread.

That is just silly.

I don't think they're that close.

You know who's a whole lot more important to Cups than two way forwards like Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron? Playoff epic defensemen. In those playoff runs, I'd take Keith/Doughty/prime-Chara over all three.

Yep all those teams had a great defenseman.

 

[Russian Factor]

The top nine is pretty set, assuming no more moves are made.

The one thing the Pens farm is loaded with is bottom six talent. If one guy doesn't work out, there are literally half a dozen guys with speed and tenacity that could take his place.

At some point, you have to figure the odds say one or two of those guys could stick on their fourth line.

Sundqvist as I said before, is the biggest wildcard to their bottom six. If he does well, it opens up endless possibilities with his size and skill, as well as his versatility to play pivot or at wing. If he struggles, things obviously won't look as good.

Yup. Pretty much agree with this. I will concede that the defense looks shaky in the event of an injury. Still. The Penguins were one of the top defensive teams in the entire league last year and it was partly because of the transition of systems from Bylsma's to HCMJ's. HCMJ's was more conducive to puck possession and shot suppression.

There was an excellent article done by Jesse Marshall last season that is always useful when you get people who don't watch the Pens and always assume we have defensive woes - http://thepensblog.com/2015-archive...-penguins-an-elite-defensive-hockey-team.html

Us Pens fans aren't just saying this. The numbers back it up too. The Penguins are an excellent defensive team by several standards.

 

[The Underboss]

Focus on the thread topic and OP's comments. Leave all the sidebar stuff at the curb!!

 

[gnarls barkley]

honestly as long as you outscore your opponent it doesn't matter, so as long as your team is halfway competent at preventing scoring and has the theoretical level of offensive firepower that the Pens do, it should be fine.

in fact, lack of offense has actually been more of a problem for contenders than anything else in this time span.

look at the last 5 cup winners and runner ups, averages per game in the playoffs:

'15 Hawks 3.00 GF 2.61 GA - runner up Lightning 2.5 GF 2.38 GA
'14 Kings 3.38 GF 2.69 GA - runner up Rangers 2.56 GF 2.4 GA
'13 Hawks 2.78 GF 2.09 GA - runner up Bruins 2.96 GF 2.14 GA
'12 Kings 2.85 GF 1.50 GA - runner up Devils 2.46 GF 2.42 GA
'11 Bruins 3.24 GF 2.12 GA - runner up Canucks 2.32 GF 2.76 GA

obviously you can break it down further with conference finals etc., but generally speaking defense seems like it's a bit overrated lately in comparison to scoring - ironically since the last 5 cup winners are all full of "two-way players". Additionally, the Pens defense isn't nearly bad enough to warrant such concerns in my opinion - their forwards may not be considered "two-way" as much, but they aren't anywhere near as one-dimensional as people seem to assume.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

They did a pretty good job, as a team, of playing the shutdown game last year compared to the previous few seasons. Kessel gives them one more guy to get that one goal you need here and there when playing a tighter team game where the opportunities don't come as often. He's definitely the kind of guy that can pull a stunt to get you the lead in a 1-1 game.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

I have a feeling Kessel is going to see a lot of 3rd line time in the playoffs. Not to say that he's going to play poorly and get demoted, but if teams are having a hard time matching up against just Crosby and Malkin, imagine how hard it would be to handle Kessel right after them. He'd still be a threat with Sutter who can't be any worse than Bozak, and he'd absolutely feast on bottom pairing D.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I have a feeling Kessel is going to see a lot of 3rd line time in the playoffs. Not to say that he's going to play poorly and get demoted, but if teams are having a hard time matching up against just Crosby and Malkin, imagine how hard it would be to handle Kessel right after them. He'd still be a threat with Sutter who can't be any worse than Bozak, and he'd absolutely feast on bottom pairing D.

That'd be a big waste

 

[The Thin White Duke]

That'd be a big waste

How's that? 18 minutes a night against weak opposition, top PP time, and it hides whatever defensive issues he might have. There's no way he doesn't put up PPG in such favorable circumstances. It'll be even easier minutes than Kane gets, and it'll take some pressure off Crosby/Malkin.

Does it really matter if its Sutter or Malkin feeding him a break out pass? It might, but it sure matters a lot less than if the D he's going one on one with is Doughty or a slow 3rd pair vet.

 

[Russian Factor]

I have a feeling Kessel is going to see a lot of 3rd line time in the playoffs. Not to say that he's going to play poorly and get demoted, but if teams are having a hard time matching up against just Crosby and Malkin, imagine how hard it would be to handle Kessel right after them. He'd still be a threat with Sutter who can't be any worse than Bozak, and he'd absolutely feast on bottom pairing D.

That'd be a big waste

Yeah to reduce an elite player's (Kessel's) minutes like that would be silly. Matchups will still give people fits when they have to pick a poison between a line with an elite center and elite winger or a line with an elite center and very good winger. Both are going to stretch teams thin and whoever gets keyed on more (probably Sid and Phil) is going to let the other great line (probably Geno and Horny) feast on lesser opponents.

Also, something tells me Phil no likey go on 3rd line when the cool kids he wants to play with are on lines 1 and 2. Just a thought.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

That'd be a big waste

Depends on the series lube matching is important.

Look at how Chicago worked it's lines for the playoffs.

Anyways are forwards won't be the issue this year it will be the defense. Unless Pouliot makes a huge push and Cole continues playing amazingly. Honestly are defense with Depres over Lovejoy isn't half bad.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Yeah to reduce an elite player's (Kessel's) minutes like that would be silly. Matchups will still give people fits when they have to pick a poison between a line with an elite center and elite winger or a line with an elite center and very good winger. Both are going to stretch teams thin and whoever gets keyed on more (probably Sid and Phil) is going to let the other great line (probably Geno and Horny) feast on lesser opponents.

Also, something tells me Phil no likey go on 3rd line when the cool kids he wants to play with are on lines 1 and 2. Just a thought.

There's also being second fiddle on a line vs carrying your line. Not to say he won't be dynamite with either of Sid or Geno but part of his game is being the puck carrier which he wouldn't get to do much with them.

Just a month ago everyone was saying that Kessel's weak defensively and too out of shape to play 20+ minutes a night. Using him like Kane goes a long way to fixing both those issues. I'd have done that with him on the Leafs if we had the luxury of having 2 full lines we could hide him behind.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Depends on the series lube matching is important.

Look at how Chicago worked it's lines for the playoffs.

Anyways are forwards won't be the issue this year it will be the defense. Unless Pouliot makes a huge push and Cole continues playing amazingly. Honestly are defense with Depres over Lovejoy isn't half bad.

Reducing Kessel's role to Sharp on the 14-15 blackhawks is not the right move.

 

[WarriorofTime]

There's also being second fiddle on a line vs carrying your line. Not to say he won't be dynamite with either of Sid or Geno but part of his game is being the puck carrier which he wouldn't get to do much with them.

Just a month ago everyone was saying that Kessel's weak defensively and too out of shape to play 20+ minutes a night. Using him like Kane goes a long way to fixing both those issues. I'd have done that with him on the Leafs if we had the luxury of having 2 full lines we could hide him behind.

You want the third line to be a minus defensively? You hide Kessel's defensive issues by pairing him with Crosby, not a worse Bozak.

 

[PB12]

It has nothing to do with fowards. It's whether that defense can stay together.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Reducing Kessel's role to Sharp on the 14-15 blackhawks is not the right move.

Give Kessel still #1 PP time.

Then just have him feasting on lower D pairings.

Put Crosby in the role of 13-14 taking most of the defense.

Then have Malkin and Kessel have there own lines to score.

If Kessel and Crosby or Malkin and Kessel together aren't scoring it is time to split them up and have each of the big three on a seperates line.

 

[Rebels57]

What Pittsburgh needs more than anything is there current players to remain healthy.

They have had more "WTF?" injuries than any other team at terrible times.

I don't know their line combos but when healthy, they look pretty damn solid. Still can hang with anyone in the East IMO if they stay pretty healthy and put it all together:

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Dupuis-Sutter-Bennett
-Lapierre-

- I think they need some more forwards, or Im forgetting some guys

Maata-Letang
Pouliot-Lovejoy
Scuderi-Cole
Erixon

- D looks weak to me, mostly because Im not sold on Lovejoy and while Pouliot could be spectacular, we just don't know as of right now. Adding a solid top 4 guy now or at the deadline would help a ton IMO.

Fleury
Zatkoff

- Despite all the criticism Fleury has received, he's not the problem to me. Also just had arguably his best season ever.

That D is terrible and they are pretty thin on the wings. Not enough depth to win a Cup by a long-shot.

 

[Rebels57]

It is absolutely baffling to me that people say our depth is bad. This is the best depth we've had in years.

Perron - Crosby - Kessel
Kunitz - Malkin - Hornqvist
Plotnikov - Sutter - Bennet
Dupuis - Sundqvist - Rust/Wilson/Sheary/etc

and that's assuming the Penguins make no more moves. If we ship out Sutter and get a better possession player like Fehr I honestly think the Penguins would have the best forward group in the league. It's arguable but there's no denying that it's in that conversation. You essentially have 7 wingers who could be put into the top 6 if need be: Duper, Kuni, Horny, Kessel, Bennett, Plot, Perron have all played top 6 and performed well there.

Kunitz is absolutely going to rebound. He's too old now? He had foot injuries and an iron deficiency that killed his stamina and he still put up 40 points. Also, are people forgetting he had THIRTY FIVE goals allllllll the way back in oh let's see here *squints* 2014? WHAT??? But enough about the good ol days of literally two seasons ago..

Perron = not 1st line calibre on either O or D
Kunitz = declining and one-dimensional
Plotnikov = hasn't played a game in the NHL
Bennett = Meh

4 of your top 9 players are nothing special, in any facet of the game.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

You want the third line to be a minus defensively? You hide Kessel's defensive issues by pairing him with Crosby, not a worse Bozak.

How does that make any sense? Crosby will be facing the other teams version of the Towes line night in night out. Skilled grinders like Kunitz/Hornqvist work in that situation, I don't know about how well Kessel would do.

I don't think Sutter is worse than Bozak at all, but either way that line would outscore whatever's left after Crosby/Malkin's matchups. If Pitts 3rd line wasn't outrageously outscored before, why would adding an elite winger to it make it somehow worse?