Discussion: Will Tom Sestito Make The Team?

[Shareefruck]

The NHL has a set of laws

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/en/v3/ext/pdfs/2012-13_RuleBook.pdf

And people who enforce them

http://www.nhlofficials.com

Goons are more vigilantes than anything. You really need to stop with this horrible analogy

This seems to be missing his point, IMO

 

[IntangiBo]

The NHL has a set of laws

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/en/v3/ext/pdfs/2012-13_RuleBook.pdf

And people who enforce them

http://www.nhlofficials.com

Goons are more vigilantes than anything. You really need to stop with this horrible analogy

You have entirely, and record breaking fashion, missed the point.

 

[Pip]

You have entirely, and record breaking fashion, missed the point.

Yes I understand that people will break the rules even if there is a deterant .

But you're implying that having a goon deters dirty play like laws deter crime when it's been shown that goons really don't influence that side of the game. The only really deterants are the penalties for breaking the rules. "Enforcers" simply go out and have an obligatory fight with the other teams goon and then play hockey poorly for 5 minutes.

 

[IntangiBo]

Yes I understand that people will break the rules even if there is a deterant .

But you're implying that having a goon deters dirty play like laws deter crime when it's been shown that goons really don't influence that side of the game. The only really deterants are the penalties for breaking the rules. "Enforcers" simply go out and have an obligatory fight with the other teams goon and then play hockey poorly for 5 minutes.

Prove to me that enforcers don't. Prove to me that penalties do. Be careful with this one, you'll find that the reasoning becomes very interchangeable.

After playing hockey for almost 40 years, and 10 of those where fighting was a penalty or GM, I know that who we were playing affected how many guys acted. I bet many an NHLer will tell you the same thing.

There seems to be a confusion that any sort of cheap shot is proof of something. It's not.

 

[Wolfhard]

Personally I thought Edmonton was bullying Vancouver around the ice hitting everyone before Sestito went off, problem with Sestito is he goes overboard and does things like obviously making contact with the goalie which costs the team

Then it calmed down Canucks scored two and that was that

Funny thing is, that with all the complainining about Sestito playing like an idiot in that game and costing his team with penalties... all but one of his penalties were coincidental. And he drew one later in the game to make up for that one. So if he succeeded in running around like an idiot, taking penalties right left and centre, but still finished the game even in that regard.... I say job well done Sestito.

 

[Ho Borvat]

Funny thing is, that with all the complainining about Sestito playing like an idiot in that game and costing his team with penalties... all but one of his penalties were coincidental. And he drew one later in the game to make up for that one. So if he succeeded in running around like an idiot, taking penalties right left and centre, but still finished the game even in that regard.... I say job well done Sestito.

According to behindthenet

Tom Sesito:
Penalties Taken/60 - 2.2
Penalties Drawn/60 - 0.1

I am not sure how majors play into this, but he also took 19 minor penalties this year despite playing 5 minutes a game.

I don't think penalty differential is a strong point for Sestito...

 

[mrmyheadhurts]

According to behindthenet

Tom Sesito:
Penalties Taken/60 - 2.2
Penalties Drawn/60 - 0.1

I am not sure how majors play into this, but he also took 19 minor penalties this year despite playing 5 minutes a game.

I don't think penalty differential is a strong point for Sestito...

There isn't much if anything that's a strong point for Sestito.

 

[Wolfhard]

According to behindthenet

Tom Sesito
Penalties Taken/60 - 2.2
Penalties Drawn/60 - 0.1

I am not sure how majors play into this, but he also took 19 minor penalties this year despite playing 5 minutes a game.

I don't think penalty differential is a strong point for Sestito...

My point is simply that those using the Edmonton game as a battle cry for all that's wrong with Tom Sestito, need to find a better example. As all his mindless running around, actually didn't hurt the team in the ways they stated.

 

[biturbo19]

Prove to me that enforcers don't. Prove to me that penalties do. Be careful with this one, you'll find that the reasoning becomes very interchangeable.

After playing hockey for almost 40 years, and 10 of those where fighting was a penalty or GM, I know that who we were playing affected how many guys acted. I bet many an NHLer will tell you the same thing.

There seems to be a confusion that any sort of cheap shot is proof of something. It's not.

That's the point though...Dirty plays, injuries, guys getting run...that stuff is going to happen either way. The evidence shows that players get cheapshotted, injured, hit hard whether you've got an enforcer in the lineup or not. Penalties don't deter it completely, enforcers don't deter it. But if neither instance is going to demonstrably "deter" those sort of incidents, why would you dress an inferior hockey player?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Prove to me that enforcers don't. Prove to me that penalties do. Be careful with this one, you'll find that the reasoning becomes very interchangeable.

After playing hockey for almost 40 years, and 10 of those where fighting was a penalty or GM, I know that who we were playing affected how many guys acted. I bet many an NHLer will tell you the same thing.

There seems to be a confusion that any sort of cheap shot is proof of something. It's not.

While it may affect how they act in terms of tactics. Having a goon in the lineup in not going to deter anyone from playing the style they do. Montreal signed Georges Laraque and George Parros, arguably the two best pure fighters in recent memory. What did it accomplish? Boston swept the Habs out of the playoffs because Gainey idiotically thought Laraque on a line with Koivu and Kovalev would keep Boston from throwing their weight around. Meanwhile, Toronto took every opportunity to pick a fight with Parros last year.

Nobody was afraid of the Habs because they had a goon. In fact, Boston and Toronto almost seemed enticed to fight them. A large factor to Montreal winning the series last year was refusing to engage Boston, which frustrated them.

We could claim Orr off waivers or ice Sestito. Do you honestly believe that will stop Keith or Brown from taking cheapshots?

 

[Ho Borvat]

My point is simply that those using the Edmonton game as a battle cry for all that's wrong with Tom Sestito, need to find a better example. As all his mindless running around, actually didn't hurt the team in the ways they stated.

Umm... According to behind the net he takes penalties at 22 times the rate he draws them... If thats not hurting your team, I don't know what is..

 

[Chairman Maouth]

I know my opinion is probably an unpopular one but I'm hoping he can play well enough to justify a spot on the roster. He was better last year and I hope he continues with that upward trajectory. He's a heart and soul type of player who sticks up for his team-mates more than anyone with the possible exception of anyone not named Bieksa and I love that.

 

[denkiteki]

I know my opinion is probably an unpopular one but I'm hoping he can play well enough to justify a spot on the roster. He was better last year and I hope he continues with that upward trajectory. He's a heart and soul type of player who sticks up for his team-mates more than anyone with the possible exception of anyone not named Bieksa and I love that.

That's before we got Dorsett who does the same thing and is a much better player. Dorsett might not be a heavyweight (much smaller than Sestito) but based on hockeyfights voting system and youtube videos (again from there), he seems like a better fighter. His fight with Sestito last year showed that despite his size, he is probably a better fighter.

The other thing is, if we don't need Sestito for the Flames, who do we actually "need" Sestito for? ~2/3 the teams in the league don't dress an enforcer... the Flames are one of the few teams that probably dress 2 or 3. As a depth option, we have many BETTER options than Sestito now at Utica. Including: Jensen, HS, BG, Zalewski, and Lain, and Archibald. Arguments can also be made for O'Reilly, Friesen, and De Fazio but those options are likely farther down the depth charts than others. Also remember that ZK, altho not a great fighter, does fight every so often too. We need our fighters to be players, just like most of the leagues. If he's suppose to be a power forward, then he probably needs to fight his own battles every so often (as well as the battles for his line mates).

At this point, it wouldn't be a bad thing to let KB3 fight... after all he had a rep as one of the best fighters in the AHL before being called up. Is he really too valuable to fight like AV suggested years ago? He might be a top 4 dmans but right now if needs be, it wouldn't be the end of the world to be without him for 5 minutes (more often than 3-5 times/yr). Stanton and Sbisa are both good enough to sub into the top 4 if needs be. Even beyond that (if he gets hurt fighting), our blueline depth isn't all that bad when you consider Weber and Corrado both have NHL experience and seem fine as injury replacement last season. Probably could argue the depth is as good as it has ever been.

Of course the argument against waiving Sestito at this point is we have cap space and don't need the roster spot. The players that would replace him are better off in Utica playing than sitting @ the press box. There isn't anyone that we apparently wanted from waivers so until there is, Sestito is a benchwarmer who i suppose gets to play if we have last minute illness/injury.

 

[LeftCoast]

Prove to me that enforcers don't. Prove to me that penalties do. Be careful with this one, you'll find that the reasoning becomes very interchangeable.

After playing hockey for almost 40 years, and 10 of those where fighting was a penalty or GM, I know that who we were playing affected how many guys acted. I bet many an NHLer will tell you the same thing.

There seems to be a confusion that any sort of cheap shot is proof of something. It's not.

The idea that enforcers deter dirty play is a myth. There is absolutely no rationale to the idea. Follow a simple logic exercise.

1. Are there dirty players in the league. A: Obviously yes.

2. Are there enforcers in the league who are good at fighting? A: Obviously yes.

3. Can all / most of the dirty players take care of themselves in a fight? A: No - see Matt Cooke, Brad Marchand, Raffi Torres, Patrik Kaleta, Dan Carcillo, etc..

4. When a dirty player makes a dirty play, is a fight a natural, inevitable consequence? A: No. The opposing team will undoubtedly want to get at the offending player, but if he is not a big tough player who can handle himself, there are simply too many ways to avoid having to fight.

• If the player is over-matched, a bigger teammate will usually step in.
  
• If the player is over-matched, the linesmen will quickly intervene to prevent injury.
  
• He can skate away
  
• He can turtle
  
• Or if he's strong enough, he can simply hang on and tie up his opponent until the linesmen step in.

I've been watching hockey games for over 45 years. While it has probably happened, i can't recall in all that time a situation where the linesmen / teammates have allowed a clearly over-matched player to get beaten up on the ice. This is somewhere between extremely rare and a unicorn sighting. The league simply can't allow a player, even a dirty one, to get beaten badly on TV.

5. So if fighting is not an inevitable outcome of a dirty play, then what does a dirty player have to fear from enforcers? A: Nothing.

6. So if there is no fear, no consequence, where is the deterrent? A: Fighting is not a deterrent to dirty play.

 

[biturbo19]

I know my opinion is probably an unpopular one but I'm hoping he can play well enough to justify a spot on the roster. He was better last year and I hope he continues with that upward trajectory. He's a heart and soul type of player who sticks up for his team-mates more than anyone with the possible exception of anyone not named Bieksa and I love that.

I have a hard time with the idea of Sestito as a "heart and soul" player, personally.

Yes, he obviously does jump in there and stick up for his teammates. But it's one of those things where...does scoring goals make Kessel a "heart and soul player"? Because that's what his job is, that's what he's good at, and that's what he does...just the same as Sestito is good at...punching people. Is it really "heart and soul" for a guy just going out there doing the ONE thing that keeps him on an NHL roster ahead of others?

You ever see Sestito absolutely lay out to block a bunch of shots? Take a hit to make a play? Go into a fight with someone far bigger than him where he's probably going to get turned inside out and send through a meat grinder?

It's just hard for me to see any real "sacrifice" or standout "courage" in his game that justifies that "heart and soul" label. When all he really does on the ice, is his one job...which happens to be fighting, because that's the one thing he's kept around for.

A guy like Rypien? That was a "heart and soul" fighter to me. Sestito just feels like he's there to do an enforcer job to me...punch his fight card (errr...time card) and call it a day. Or alternatively, he's flying off the handle chasing his own personal agenda around costing us a bunch of penalties that other heart and soul guys have to deal with cleaning up after.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[skyo]

just the same as Sestito is good at...punching people. Is it really "heart and soul" for a guy just going out there doing the ONE thing that keeps him on an NHL roster ahead of others?

While he did manage 5 goals while averaging 6 min a game.

imo his best attribute was body checking, Ses would be up there with Matt Martin (a league leader in hits) in hit stats if given the same time on ice, just a few less.

 

[thebigbea]

Canucks are deep so he cant crack the lineup.. hes a nhl player for sure.. he can actually play unlike most heavyweight out there

 

[Wolfhard]

Umm... According to behind the net he takes penalties at 22 times the rate he draws them... If thats not hurting your team, I don't know what is..

I like how you quoted me saying "in the Edmonton game", and then proceed to argue with me by using stats from past seasons.

 

[cc]

I think Sestito will fight a lot less as the staged fighting starts to go away as it should.
his true value on the team will be as big forward that is very willing to throw his body around hopefully draw the other team into taking instigator penalties on him. With less fighting, I believe that he will be able to develop into a more consistently effective grinding player.

 

[Ho Borvat]

I like how you quoted me saying "in the Edmonton game", and then proceed to argue with me by using stats from past seasons.

So he didn't hurt his team for 1 game.. Congrats?

 

[Wolfhard]

So he didn't hurt his team for 1 game.. Congrats?

Context my friend. My comment was in response to those who were trying to use the Edmonton game as an example for Sestito running around, taking penalties, and hurting the team. But that clearly was not the case.

 

[MS]

So the big argument for keeping him was 'we need him against the Alberta teams!'

First two games against Alberta teams are done, he's been a healthy scratch, we've won both and (not surprisingly) nothing happened.

He won't play the next game against Edmonton, either. Why is this lump still on our roster?

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

So the big argument for keeping him was 'we need him against the Alberta teams!'

First two games against Alberta teams are done, he's been a healthy scratch, we've won both and (not surprisingly) nothing happened.

He won't play the next game against Edmonton, either. Why is this lump still on our roster?

Now that's just not true. Because sestito wasn't around, poor Dan hamhuis had to fight Ryan Nugent-Hopkins!

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

In other threads when I've asked, posters have actually told me that he needs to be on the roster because we need to scratch somebody, and he's perfect for scratching because he sucks. They were serious too. As I posted, I will happily be a healthy scratch for the canucks at no more than half the league minimum. I wont join the union and won't ever ask to play. :laugh. What ridiculous logic.

 

[BetterMan]

I wonder if edmonton fans had a 13 page thread on Stortini or Brown at some point?

Sestito has his place and role, both are very limited and shrininkng in today's NHL.