Discussion: Are we a Lottery Team?

dave babych returns

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Dec 2, 2011
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Yeah. Well that's my point, right.

We've been out of contention for a couple of years (and jump started the rebuild trading Schneider for Horvat right off the top).

I hope we can maintain that momentum and add a few cornerstone type pieces over the next two or three years but I have a feeling we won't really bottom out until towards the end of the current Sedin deals.

If they do that, and if they can hit on some players with a few mid round picks, then adding that to what's in place now should give us the makings of a good young team.
 

ahmon

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Jun 25, 2002
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Yeah. Well that's my point, right.

We've been out of contention for a couple of years (and jump started the rebuild trading Schneider for Horvat right off the top).

I hope we can maintain that momentum and add a few cornerstone type pieces over the next two or three years but I have a feeling we won't really bottom out until towards the end of the current Sedin deals.

If they do that, and if they can hit on some players with a few mid round picks, then adding that to what's in place now should give us the makings of a good young team.

But if we wait that long we are wasting our #1 Tanev's prime.

Of course if they can get gems in the mid rounds, all the power to them, and we might not even need high picks. But thats a tough ask for any scouting team.
 

McDeathbyCheerios*

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Oilers fan chiming in..
I have absolutely no idea how the division will shape up except Anaheim will stay on top.

Calgary made playoffs last year and are improved so they should stay high.

San Jose with Deboer... I'm not optimistic for them at all.

Arizona is still in tank mode.

LA could bounce back from last season or they could just keep dropping.

Edmonton has improved the roster and picked up McLellan but its the Oilers so you really never know.

And then you guys. Your roster looks worse on paper but no one expected you guys to do well last year either so really, you never know what could happen.

Anaheim will be 1st, Arizona will be last and the middle is a giant crap shoot.
 

Lonny Bohonos

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Apr 4, 2010
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Oilers fan chiming in..
I have absolutely no idea how the division will shape up except Anaheim will stay on top.

Calgary made playoffs last year and are improved so they should stay high.

San Jose with Deboer... I'm not optimistic for them at all.

Arizona is still in tank mode.

LA could bounce back from last season or they could just keep dropping.

Edmonton has improved the roster and picked up McLellan but its the Oilers so you really never know.

And then you guys. Your roster looks worse on paper but no one expected you guys to do well last year either so really, you never know what could happen.

Anaheim will be 1st, Arizona will be last and the middle is a giant crap shoot.
By McLellan you mean McDavid... :sarcasm:
 

ahmon

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Jun 25, 2002
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Oilers fan chiming in..
I have absolutely no idea how the division will shape up except Anaheim will stay on top.

Calgary made playoffs last year and are improved so they should stay high.

San Jose with Deboer... I'm not optimistic for them at all.

Arizona is still in tank mode.

LA could bounce back from last season or they could just keep dropping.

Edmonton has improved the roster and picked up McLellan but its the Oilers so you really never know.

And then you guys. Your roster looks worse on paper but no one expected you guys to do well last year either so really, you never know what could happen.

Anaheim will be 1st, Arizona will be last and the middle is a giant crap shoot.

agreed, I think the west is wide open this coming year. And it will take less to make the playoffs.
 

dwarf

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Feb 13, 2007
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Well on paper, we are just missing the playoffs in my view. We could easily be one of the teams just squeaking in on the last day, or being eliminated last day.

But as we all know, paper is paper, I didn't see Calgary coming out at all last year. Or the Bruins missing the playoffs.

I feel last year the Canucks and Columbus were the biggest losers overall. Both teams lost a lot of ground in the draft, for a few extra wins with no real accomplishment.

San Jose turned back to get a good pick with three weeks left, and did well, and the Islanders obviously had an amazing draft year.

I think players perform at their very best in option years, and having Hamhuis and Vrbata not signed, will be a real help to the team making the playoffs.

If Miller can have a good offseason, and Markstrom as well, there is the potential to contend. I feel goaltending can make anything possible in the playoffs, if they are ready mentally and physically.

Guess time will tell. :)
 

Ho Borvat

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Sep 29, 2009
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agreed, I think the west is wide open this coming year. And it will take less to make the playoffs.

I still think we are a tier below everyone except Arizona (who is a tier below us).

It may take less to make the playoffs, but I don't see us winning a lot of games in the uber competitive west.
 

Bourne Endeavor

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Apr 6, 2009
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I still think we are a tier below everyone except Arizona (who is a tier below us).

It may take less to make the playoffs, but I don't see us winning a lot of games in the uber competitive west.

That's my stance as well. My rankings based on current off season moves are...

Anaheim
St. Louis
Nashville
Calgary
Los Angels
---
Chicago
Minnesota
Colorado
Winnipeg
San Jose
---
Dallas
Edmonton
Vancouver
---
Arizona

I see the first bracket as guaranteed playoff teams, with the second tier battle for the remaining wild cards. We're in the third tier, battling first to make it above water, then to get into a wild card. Arizona is by their lonesome, likely the worst team in the league by a mile.
 

Ho Borvat

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Sep 29, 2009
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That's my stance as well. My rankings based on current off season moves are...

Anaheim
St. Louis
Nashville
Calgary
Los Angels
---
Chicago
Minnesota
Colorado
Winnipeg
San Jose
---
Dallas
Edmonton
Vancouver
---
Arizona

I see the first bracket as guaranteed playoff teams, with the second tier battle for the remaining wild cards. We're in the third tier, battling first to make it above water, then to get into a wild card. Arizona is by their lonesome, likely the worst team in the league by a mile.

For the most part i agree, but I see Dallas and Edmonton both in that upper tier because they both made some significant improvements during the offseason(plus for Edm, all their players are a year older and should take a step forward).

*to clarify, I mean the same tier as San Jose etc. Not playoff locks.
 

ahmon

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Jun 25, 2002
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I still think we are a tier below everyone except Arizona (who is a tier below us).

It may take less to make the playoffs, but I don't see us winning a lot of games in the uber competitive west.

yeah, I can see the canucks just finishing in front of Arizona.
 

MarkusNaslund19

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Dec 28, 2005
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No we are not a lottery team. Unless you simply mean missing the playoffs which is technically still a part of the lottery. We will finish between 10th and 20th next year in the league. I suspect a lot closer to 10th. If I had to nail it down I would say 13th.

We had over 100 points last year. And what's supposed to make us so much worse? Losing Lack? For all of the lovers of advanced statistics here (and I guarantee that history will show that a lot of you adhere far too strictly to them), there is an ignorance of the birth of goalie-based advanced statistics. Some of which look at quality of scoring chances and save percentage broken down into 'high quality chances, medium quality chances, and low quality chances'. Miller was in the top 10 in stopping 'high quality chances' but was in the bottom 10 in low and medium. Lack was in the bottom 10 in stopping high quality chances, but was in the top 5 or 6 in medium and low quality chances.

The stats are in their infancy, but apparently ability to stop high quality chances is much more sustainable while low and medium tend to be a lot more random.

Source: http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2015/06/24/the-case-for-ryan-miller/


Further, Miller changed parts of his style this year to suit Melanson and to make his style more sustainable (he was playing a young goaltender's game prior). It was known that this would lead to hiccups in the early part of the process, and it did.

I will be surprised if Lack outperforms Miller this season.

If we're supposed to be worried about losing Kassian, I doubt there has been a season yet (maybe second half of 03-04) where Prust has been less of a net positive for a team than Kassian has.

Look, I like Lack and I like Kassian. But these aren't deals that will cripple us. Losing Bieksa may hurt in the character department (and I will certainly miss that side of him). In fact, he played hurt last year and I suspect he has a better year coming up. But whomever replaces him whether it's Clendenning or Corrado won't be horrendously worse than he was last year. He was ineffective last year and I suspect he knows it.


Look, I wasn't originally on board with the Virtanen signing (wanted Ehlers). Nobody likes the Sbisa signing (though he's obviously filler and this is obviously a show-me contract). So Benning still needs to prove it to me. But this meme that he is the village idiot and can't make a single good decision is just stupid. I wish people would stand up and admit their mistakes when they are proven to be wrong. Because they will be. I'm not saying that Benning is going to turn out to be a genius. I don't know the answer to that and neither do you. But just because he isn't particularly well spoken and has an 'aww shucks' demeanour doesn't mean that he's an idiot.

There are a lot of typically reasonable posters flying off of the handle based entirely on speculation on how things will go (I'm looking at you MS. Typically one of my favorite posters). Howe about we give him two more years and see where it takes us.

And for those who want to 'tank'. Literally 5 years ago that talk was disgusting to any fan of the NHL. And it still should be. Have some god damn pride. That doesn't mean that you re-sign all of your older players and bury your young ones in the minors. But attempting to sewer your own team for a high draft pick is pathetic. I can only assume that most who want that option haven't played sports at any kind of decent level.
 
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Ryp37

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Nov 6, 2011
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This stupid miller advanced stat argument I've seen doesn't make sense to me

He's 35 coming off a knee injury, his entire career he's been around .914-919 with his one huge year in 2010. He had a .910 this year, what's he going to improve to? His career average which is below average?

Not holding my breath on "danger zone" math
 

MarkusNaslund19

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Dec 28, 2005
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This stupid miller advanced stat argument I've seen doesn't make sense to me

He's 35 coming off a knee injury, his entire career he's been around .914-919 with his one huge year in 2010. He had a .910 this year, what's he going to improve to? His career average which is below average?

Not holding my breath on "danger zone" math

But if you're strictly looking at statistics without context than you're doomed to the potential of bad analysis.
Miller has a bit of a unique history in that he backstopped a good team who could outscore their lack of defense (back when that was possible) and has since played for a pretty porous defense in Buffalo.

I don't put a lot of stock into his performance in St Louis as having to adjust to new defense/a new system can be a confounding factor. Especially late in the year when stakes are so high.

Also, Miller was used to high shot volume and moved to one of the teams that blocks/suppresses the most shots. Part of Miller's successes came from being really aggressive/ trusting his instincts. In St Louis he was a lot more susceptible to the back door plays.

He has changed his style to fit a better/ different team now and I expect him to have a good season. I also expect Markstrom to get 20-30 games to to impress the fan base as well.

Everybody jumps with the narrative of Sean Burke (when he was in Phoenix) being able to make straw into gold with goalies. But I don't think enough credit is given to Rollie Melanson. He was able to work well with Luongo, Schneider, and Lack. He's been working with Miller and I expect we'll see the fruits of his labours with Markstrom soon. Have patience.
 

Ryp37

Registered User
Nov 6, 2011
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How's not enough credit been given to Rollie? Some people act like he's gods gift to goaltending around here

I'll believe it when I see it, only a handful of goalies are effective at Millers age and beyond and I don't see him being one especially with that D in front of him
 

lawrence

Registered User
May 19, 2012
16,123
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I really wish we are a bottom 5 team......

but this team is exactly the same as last year, Minus Bieksa and Kassian, who had little effect to the team due to their injured riddled seasons. They have since been replayced by Prust and Bartowski, so we are pretty much the same as the 105 point team last year, further hurting our rebuild mode, by a middle of the pack pick rather then a top 5 pick.
 

ginner classic

Dammit Jim!
Mar 4, 2002
10,637
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Douglas Park
I really wish we are a bottom 5 team......

but this team is exactly the same as last year, Minus Bieksa and Kassian, who had little effect to the team due to their injured riddled seasons. They have since been replayced by Prust and Bartowski, so we are pretty much the same as the 105 point team last year, further hurting our rebuild mode, by a middle of the pack pick rather then a top 5 pick.

Bieksa to Corrado is a downgrade
Stanton to Bartkowski is a wash
Matthias to Virtanen is a downgrade
Kassian to Prust is a downgrade
Richardson to Baertschi is a downgrade
Lack to Markstrom is a downgrade

Horvat and Vey should both be better...that is not saying much for Vey though.
Sedin, Sedin, Burrows, Higgins, Hamhuis and Vrbata are all aging....have to assume that one or two may be measurably worse.

In addition our NHL calibre org depth is taking quite a hit considering Markstrom, Clendening, Corrado, and Baertschi were already available to us last year.

Overall I could see us scoring 20 goals fewer, letting in 20 goals more, putting us at - 20 in goal differential. That puts us on par with Florida, Philly and Columbus' output last year....or in the 20-25 spot in the league.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
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Make my day.
This stupid miller advanced stat argument I've seen doesn't make sense to me

He's 35 coming off a knee injury, his entire career he's been around .914-919 with his one huge year in 2010. He had a .910 this year, what's he going to improve to? His career average which is below average?

Not holding my breath on "danger zone" math

That article made some unusual conclusions. They look at Miller's long term numbers when it suits them and ignore them when they don't. Miller has a good SV% vs high percentage chances, therefore he will be back with that same random high number discarding the long term trend down, the trend down in medium and even the dip in low.

Does this assumption make sense? Will he bounce back? What I see is a five year downward trend in SV% in both medium and high percentage chances, the sort off thing an aging player might show. It is far more likely this trends are the truth and that a 1 off random high SV% bounce back is an aberration.

His low % line took a dive as well last year but it just dropped back to its average from a 13-14 aberration.

Screen-Shot-2015-06-24-at-2.59.30-PM.png
 
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The Stig

Your hero.
Feb 14, 2013
15,620
3,794
Maple Ridge B.C.
I really wish we are a bottom 5 team......

but this team is exactly the same as last year, Minus Bieksa and Kassian, who had little effect to the team due to their injured riddled seasons. They have since been replayced by Prust and Bartowski, so we are pretty much the same as the 105 point team last year, further hurting our rebuild mode, by a middle of the pack pick rather then a top 5 pick.

How on earth do you wish we're a bottom 5 team? How does someone actively want their team to lose? My word. Give your head a shake.

So you're sad because this team is the same as one that got 105 pts last year? :shakehead
 

I in the Eye

Drop a ball it falls
Dec 14, 2002
6,371
2,327
That article made some unusual conclusions. They look at Miller's long term numbers when it suits them and ignore them when they don't. Miller has a good SV% vs high percentage chances, therefore he will be back with that same random high number discarding the long term trend down, the trend down in medium and even the dip in low.

Does this assumption make sense? Will he bounce back? What I see is a five year downward trend in SV% in both medium and high percentage chances, the sort off thing an aging player might show. It is far more likely this trends are the truth and that a 1 off random high SV% bounce back is an aberration.

His low % line took a dive as well last year but it just dropped back to its average from a 13-14 aberration.

Screen-Shot-2015-06-24-at-2.59.30-PM.png

The good news is that Benning never used these stats to determine Miller's worth to the team.

The bad news is that Benning used his win / loss record.
 

RealGudbranson

Registered User
Jun 19, 2008
834
217
Rieder - Chipchura - Doan
Erat - Arcobello - Moss
Cunningham - Gagner - McGinn
Szwarz - Vitale - Crombeen

This was Arizona's closing roster last year ...

I don't think we are a bottom five team, unless we lose Vrbata and H. Sedin to injury and Miller and Markstrom both meltdown.

:help: I can see both those things happening, however.
 

Black Noise

Flavourtown
Aug 7, 2014
3,704
946
North Vancouver
Rieder - Chipchura - Doan
Erat - Arcobello - Moss
Cunningham - Gagner - McGinn
Szwarz - Vitale - Crombeen

This was Arizona's closing roster last year ...

I don't think we are a bottom five team, unless we lose Vrbata and H. Sedin to injury and Miller and Markstrom both meltdown.

:help: I can see both those things happening, however.

What's even more sad is that **** storm of a team beat us in a shoot out last year.
 

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