News Article: Dion Phaneuf plays against toughest competition

[Trapper]

I don't expect a captain to necessarily put the whole team on his back and carry them throught every rough patch, but Phaneuf was as at least as responsible(probably more) for the collapses than anyone else.

When the going gets tough, he's awful and kills any chance of getting it together.

Here is how I place the responsibilty on the collapse:

1.Nonis/Carlyle: The engineer and conductor. One gets the pieces and the other puts them in positions to succeed or fail.

2.Phaneuf/Kessel: Lets be honest. The rest of the team is supposed to follow the lead of these 2 players. They didn't do it. One apologized and one didn't.

3.Lupul,McClement,Clarkson: The vets. The other 2 letter players and the intangible who was supposed to bring a culture from NJ. Fail.

4.Bozak,JVR,Kulemin,Raymond,Gunnarsson,Franson,Gleason,Reimer: Your support staff. Didn't always support.

5.Kadri,Gardiner,Rielly,Bernier: Bernier did his job. The 3 young guys are supposed to be guided by the above leadership. Fail.

 

[DaveT83*]

Here is how I place the responsibilty on the collapse:

1.Nonis/Carlyle: The engineer and conductor. One gets the pieces and the other puts them in positions to succeed or fail.

2.Phaneuf/Kessel: Lets be honest. The rest of the team is supposed to follow the lead of these 2 players. They didn't do it. One apologized and one didn't.

3.Lupul,McClement,Clarkson: The vets. The other 2 letter players and the intangible who was supposed to bring a culture from NJ. Fail.

4.Bozak,JVR,Kulemin,Raymond,Gunnarsson,Franson,Gleason,Reimer: Your support staff. Didn't always support.

5.Kadri,Gardiner,Rielly,Bernier: Bernier did his job. The 3 young guys are supposed to be guided by the above leadership. Fail.

Nonis receives his marching orders from higher up. Just like everyone else he's simply a puppet to trot out for press conferences.

JFJ
Burke
Nonis

3 Different guys - Same Horrible results - Same EXACT M.O

 

[yubbers]

Great job showing Phaneuf had the most minors and two top tier defenseman also need to cut down their minor penalty minutes.

Phaneuf lead the league in minor pims, nobody else will be as high as him, bu it's incorrect to suggest no top tier defensemen are high on that list.

It show yet again he's good at nothing.

Subban had 11 LESS penalties with 20 more points. You don't see the difference?

 

[Gallagbi]

It show yet again he's good at nothing.

Subban had 11 LESS penalties with 20 more points. You don't see the difference?

I acknowledge the difference in the post you are quoting.

 

[Dreakmur]

It show yet again he's good at nothing.

Subban had 11 LESS penalties with 20 more points. You don't see the difference?

If Phaneuf was a physical force and an intimidating presence, the minor penalties would be a result of something that actually has value. If those minor penalties were for boarding, charging, and elbowing instead of hooking and tripping, it would be completely different.

It is Subban's style that makes his penalties more acceptable than Phaneuf's.

 

[Bluelines]

It show yet again he's good at nothing.

Subban had 11 LESS penalties with 20 more points. You don't see the difference?

So, have you ever watched a hockey game before?.., cause somehow in your mind a defenceman who gets 38.8% Off Zone starts (Phaneuf) is comparable to a player who gets 47.1% Off Zone starts (Subban). Heck even the quality of opponents is light years away from each other...one plays vs the most skilled, most difficult players while the other plays vs mostly against supporting cast. Who's more likely to draw a penalty a 1st line star or some 3rd line scrub?

Now lets put our thinking hats on shall we... are you more likely to get a penalty when you are defending in your own end vs the best of the best or on the offence against some 3rd line scrub? .... hmmmm.... lets see..... ummm... well.... umm... thats is a hard one...

Lets compare this apple to an orange and call it the same thing shall we? That makes sense to me... excuse me sir do you have any of those orange colored apples?

 

[Bluelines]

You stated that you had stats to prove that Dion was our best Defensive D man, and you were proven wrong, now it is Just Gunnar had a good year. I have posted stats that back up my opinion which are facts, you have only posted an opinion not supported by facts.

Dion was better when playing with Gunnar and Gunnar was better playing away from Dion.

Why not admit that you were wrong?

So... I've posed MULTIPLE times advance stats that show that both Dion and Gunnar are excellent defenders but some how you agree that the advance stats show Gunnar is great but refute the SAME data points that supports the same for Dion... dice your mind works in an odd way...

 

[Dreakmur]

Somebody please explain to me exactly how the quality of competition is calculated.

 

[hotpaws]

So... I've posed MULTIPLE times advance stats that show that both Dion and Gunnar are excellent defenders but some how you agree that the advance stats show Gunnar is great but refute the SAME data points that supports the same for Dion... dice your mind works in an odd way...

the advanced stats show RC believes they are his best defensive d and he uses them it that way , they're meaningless as a comparison to players on other teams

 

[yubbers]

So, have you ever watched a hockey game before?.., cause somehow in your mind a defenceman who gets 38.8% Off Zone starts (Phaneuf) is comparable to a player who gets 47.1% Off Zone starts (Subban). Heck even the quality of opponents is light years away from each other...one plays vs the most skilled, most difficult players while the other plays vs mostly against supporting cast. Who's more likely to draw a penalty a 1st line star or some 3rd line scrub?

Now lets put our thinking hats on shall we... are you more likely to get a penalty when you are defending in your own end vs the best of the best or on the offence against some 3rd line scrub? .... hmmmm.... lets see..... ummm... well.... umm... thats is a hard one...

Lets compare this apple to an orange and call it the same thing shall we? That makes sense to me... excuse me sir do you have any of those orange colored apples?

Why no mention about Doughty?

Too apples to apples?

 

[Trapper]

the advanced stats show RC believes they are his best defensive d and he uses them it that way , they're meaningless as a comparison to players on other teams

When your competition is Franson, a player the coach doesn't like, a 19 year old kid, a guy who hasn't played in 3 years and a salary dump, I just can't get excited about Phaneuf playing against the toughest competition because he earned it.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Somebody please explain to me exactly how the quality of competition is calculated.

Simply put, it is like +- for shots against and for.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

So... I've posed MULTIPLE times advance stats that show that both Dion and Gunnar are excellent defenders but some how you agree that the advance stats show Gunnar is great but refute the SAME data points that supports the same for Dion... dice your mind works in an odd way...

There isn't a single stat that says that Gunnar and Phaneuf are especially great defensemen - if anything, they show that they're crumbling under the tough assignments they get. You can give them credit for off. zone finish vs starts, I guess. The only other good stat they have is on-ice sv%, which for blindingly obvious reasons has been shown to depend mostly on goaltending and luck. And of course you ignored the stats that were posted, which showed that Phaneuf does worse without Gunnarsson that Gunnar does without Phaneuf.

So, have you ever watched a hockey game before?.., cause somehow in your mind a defenceman who gets 38.8% Off Zone starts (Phaneuf) is comparable to a player who gets 47.1% Off Zone starts (Subban). Heck even the quality of opponents is light years away from each other...one plays vs the most skilled, most difficult players while the other plays vs mostly against supporting cast. Who's more likely to draw a penalty a 1st line star or some 3rd line scrub?

Now lets put our thinking hats on shall we... are you more likely to get a penalty when you are defending in your own end vs the best of the best or on the offence against some 3rd line scrub? .... hmmmm.... lets see..... ummm... well.... umm... thats is a hard one...

Lets compare this apple to an orange and call it the same thing shall we? That makes sense to me... excuse me sir do you have any of those orange colored apples?

Oh look, another aggressively stupid post dripping with condescension. Did you happen to compare how many penalties Phaneuf takes with Gunnarsson, since they play similar minutes and spent a lot of their time playing the exact same minutes together?

Here, I'll do the work for you:

NAME	TEAM		5v5TOI/60	QoC	PensTaken/60	PensDrawn/60	OZone Start%	OZone End%
DIONPHANEUF	TOR	16.58	2.086	1.4	0.5	38.8	46.3
GUNNARSSON	TOR	15.50	2.015	0.7	0.2	38.5	47.9
ROMAN JOSI	NSH	20.05	1.884	0.4	0.4	44.2	46.6
SHEAWEBER	NSH	20.44	1.823	0.7	0.3	43.7	46.6
HJALMARSSON	CHI	17.72	1.759	0.7	0.1	48.3	47.8
JOHNNYODUYA	CHI	17.26	1.691	0.7	0.3	48.6	48.4
M.GIORDANO	CGY	18.32	1.682	1	0.4	44.1	47.3
Z.MICHALEK	PHX	17.09	1.602	0.6	0.3	44.4	53.8
EKM.-LARSSON	PHX	18.03	1.579	0.7	0.7	48.7	51.9
JAN    HEJDA 	COL	18.61	1.567	0.5	0.1	44	49.5
ZDENOCHARA	BOS	18.50	1.500	0.7	0.3	48.1	53.3
JOHNCARLSON	WSH	16.47	1.492	0.3	0.4	50.4	51.3
T.J. BRODIE  	CGY	19.39	1.487	0.3	0.5	41.9	49.7
ERIKJOHNSON	COL	18.65	1.479	0.6	0.2	44.9	49.4
DANGIRARDI	NYR	18.01	1.441	0.2	0	46.1	49.9
BRA. COBURN	PHI	17.42	1.430	0.7	0.3	48.4	48.9
R.MCDONAGH	NYR	18.48	1.427	0.5	0.5	47.2	48.8
BOUWMEESTER	STL	17.71	1.407	0.4	0.3	51.2	51.7
CAMFOWLER	ANA	16.90	1.394	0.3	0.1	49.3	49.3
BENLOVEJOY	ANA	16.36	1.384	0.5	0.2	48	47.3
KARLALZNER	WSH	15.94	1.327	0.4	0.5	49.8	53.5
A.PIETRANGELO	STL	18.13	1.312	0.3	0.3	52.3	51.2
N.KRONWALL	DET	16.95	1.285	0.9	0.3	50.9	53.5
CHRISTANEV	VAN	16.62	1.285	0.2	0.3	44	48.3

Phaneuf is miles ahead of all of those guys in penalties taken. He's about double the average, double Gunnarsson's rate, and at best you can say he's a little above average at drawing penalties. No, there's nobody besides Gunnarsson with his exact combination of high QoC and low o-zone starts (partly because few teams besides Toronto are so bad that everyone on the team has < 50% o-zone starts), but you can find plenty of similar players like Brodie, Michalek, Hejda, Josi and ... well, everyone takes fewer penalties than Phaneuf.

 

[yubbers]

17 minors for Gunner

47 for Dion

That's season total. Not sure How I'd dig that penalty stat of just playing together.

That's only a full game of shorthanded hockey being the difference

 

[diceman934]

So... I've posed MULTIPLE times advance stats that show that both Dion and Gunnar are excellent defenders but some how you agree that the advance stats show Gunnar is great but refute the SAME data points that supports the same for Dion... dice your mind works in an odd way...

You are wrong again, I simply stated that Gunnar was our best Defensive D man....when you stated that Dion was one of the better defenders in the League. Which I disagree with in a big way. Here is your quote:

Actually he's proven the exact opposite, which if you were open to the data I provided you would see just how wrong you are about Dion but apparently your dislike of Dion is personal and refuse to contemplate the indisputable fact that he is one of the better defenders in the league.

I replied with the following:

Look at the data posted in this thread that clearly shows that he is not among the better defenders in the League.....not even is he the best on the Leafs....

Gunnar is better.....TGA while on the ice 101 for Dion 4th worse in the league....Gunnar 78. 23 less goals while on the ice against.

Dion was among the worse defenders in the league in the last 25 games.....he was also among the worse on the pk as well. Gunnar played more minutes on the PK but was on for less goals than Dion.

You spent the next 5 pages trying to prove that Dion was better than Gunnar this season and failed. You should simply admit that you were wrong and stop trying to spin this in other directions as that has not worked out for you thus far!

 

[Dreakmur]

Simply put, it is like +- for shots against and for.

If that is true, then the quality of competition stats are garbage. Are you sure that's how it is calculated?

 

[Jtabo]

I wonder what the data is on the percentage of some users posts that are dedicated to bashing our captain. Got to be over 75% for some people.

 

[Bluelines]

You spent the next 5 pages trying to prove that Dion was better than Gunnar this season and failed. You should simply admit that you were wrong and stop trying to spin this in other directions as that has not worked out for you thus far!

So..lies again? Will you ever learn? Yeah don't think that happened at all...

You said Gunnar had better stats... you didn't say SOME of Gunnars stats are better ... So I questioned your intentional attempt to derail the truth...

 

[Bluelines]

There isn't a single stat that says that Gunnar and Phaneuf are especially great defensemen - if anything, they show that they're crumbling under the tough assignments they get. You can give them credit for off. zone finish vs starts, I guess. The only other good stat they have is on-ice sv%, which for blindingly obvious reasons has been shown to depend mostly on goaltending and luck. And of course you ignored the stats that were posted, which showed that Phaneuf does worse without Gunnarsson that Gunnar does without Phaneuf.



Oh look, another aggressively stupid post dripping with condescension. Did you happen to compare how many penalties Phaneuf takes with Gunnarsson, since they play similar minutes and spent a lot of their time playing the exact same minutes together?

Here, I'll do the work for you:

NAME	TEAM		5v5TOI/60	QoC	PensTaken/60	PensDrawn/60	OZone Start%	OZone End%
DIONPHANEUF	TOR	16.58	2.086	1.4	0.5	38.8	46.3
GUNNARSSON	TOR	15.50	2.015	0.7	0.2	38.5	47.9
ROMAN JOSI	NSH	20.05	1.884	0.4	0.4	44.2	46.6
SHEAWEBER	NSH	20.44	1.823	0.7	0.3	43.7	46.6
HJALMARSSON	CHI	17.72	1.759	0.7	0.1	48.3	47.8
JOHNNYODUYA	CHI	17.26	1.691	0.7	0.3	48.6	48.4
M.GIORDANO	CGY	18.32	1.682	1	0.4	44.1	47.3
Z.MICHALEK	PHX	17.09	1.602	0.6	0.3	44.4	53.8
EKM.-LARSSON	PHX	18.03	1.579	0.7	0.7	48.7	51.9
JAN    HEJDA 	COL	18.61	1.567	0.5	0.1	44	49.5
ZDENOCHARA	BOS	18.50	1.500	0.7	0.3	48.1	53.3
JOHNCARLSON	WSH	16.47	1.492	0.3	0.4	50.4	51.3
T.J. BRODIE  	CGY	19.39	1.487	0.3	0.5	41.9	49.7
ERIKJOHNSON	COL	18.65	1.479	0.6	0.2	44.9	49.4
DANGIRARDI	NYR	18.01	1.441	0.2	0	46.1	49.9
BRA. COBURN	PHI	17.42	1.430	0.7	0.3	48.4	48.9
R.MCDONAGH	NYR	18.48	1.427	0.5	0.5	47.2	48.8
BOUWMEESTER	STL	17.71	1.407	0.4	0.3	51.2	51.7
CAMFOWLER	ANA	16.90	1.394	0.3	0.1	49.3	49.3
BENLOVEJOY	ANA	16.36	1.384	0.5	0.2	48	47.3
KARLALZNER	WSH	15.94	1.327	0.4	0.5	49.8	53.5
A.PIETRANGELO	STL	18.13	1.312	0.3	0.3	52.3	51.2
N.KRONWALL	DET	16.95	1.285	0.9	0.3	50.9	53.5
CHRISTANEV	VAN	16.62	1.285	0.2	0.3	44	48.3

Phaneuf is miles ahead of all of those guys in penalties taken. He's about double the average, double Gunnarsson's rate, and at best you can say he's a little above average at drawing penalties. No, there's nobody besides Gunnarsson with his exact combination of high QoC and low o-zone starts (partly because few teams besides Toronto are so bad that everyone on the team has < 50% o-zone starts), but you can find plenty of similar players like Brodie, Michalek, Hejda, Josi and ... well, everyone takes fewer penalties than Phaneuf.

He's also miles ahead in Def zone starts, ya think there might be a relationship there between Def Zone starts and PIM's taken? Before you say Gunnar and Dion had the SAME opponents... the QoC clearly shows they didn't.

 

[Bluelines]

Somebody please explain to me exactly how the quality of competition is calculated.

There are multiple measurements for QoC, below are some of the more commonly used ones, I use Corsi Rel QoC.

Corsi QoC - A measure of competition quality using Corsi as its basis. While a slight improvement on goal-based measures, the scale can be incredibly hard to decipher based on the quality of teams faced throughout the year.

Corsi Rel QoC - A measure of competition quality using relative Corsi as its basis. It is less luck-driven than QualComp and more universal than Corsi QoC because it's based on a relative metric. The most statistically sound quality of competition metric currently used.

QualComp - A measure of competition quality using relative plus-minus as it's basis. A number higher than 0 indicates a higher than average level of competition. One drawback to QualComp is that it is goal-based, incorporating more puck luck than Corsi-based methods

 

[Dreakmur]

There are multiple measurements for QoC, below are some of the more commonly used ones, I use Corsi Rel QoC.

Corsi QoC - A measure of competition quality using Corsi as its basis. While a slight improvement on goal-based measures, the scale can be incredibly hard to decipher based on the quality of teams faced throughout the year.

Corsi Rel QoC - A measure of competition quality using relative Corsi as its basis. It is less luck-driven than QualComp and more universal than Corsi QoC because it's based on a relative metric. The most statistically sound quality of competition metric currently used.

QualComp - A measure of competition quality using relative plus-minus as it's basis. A number higher than 0 indicates a higher than average level of competition. One drawback to QualComp is that it is goal-based, incorporating more puck luck than Corsi-based methods

Thanks for the response, but that doesn't tell me anything about how the calculations are done.

Do they give each player a corsi rating, and then average out what corsi ratings a player played against? Do they calculate corsi on ice and reverse that for quality of competition?

 

[hullsy47]

Here is how I place the responsibilty on the collapse:

1.Nonis/Carlyle: The engineer and conductor. One gets the pieces and the other puts them in positions to succeed or fail.

2.Phaneuf/Kessel: Lets be honest. The rest of the team is supposed to follow the lead of these 2 players. They didn't do it. One apologized and one didn't.

3.Lupul,McClement,Clarkson: The vets. The other 2 letter players and the intangible who was supposed to bring a culture from NJ. Fail.

4.Bozak,JVR,Kulemin,Raymond,Gunnarsson,Franson,Gleason,Reimer: Your support staff. Didn't always support.

5.Kadri,Gardiner,Rielly,Bernier: Bernier did his job. The 3 young guys are supposed to be guided by the above leadership. Fail.

k
kessel bozak and JVR starting to look like a muskoka 3
after seeing kessel laughing at phaneuf on you tube ......hes immature,u wanna send a message shanny .your first meeting has to be with kessel .hes burkes boy ,and ya dougie hamilton and reilly would sure be nice building blocks BTW ,make him accountable
u might not like dion ....but u cant argue with his desrire,id rather see kessel fukking up trying than half assing to his 37 goals

 

[achtungbaby]

Somebody please explain to me exactly how the quality of competition is calculated.

This article explains it okay. SBNation had a series on it as well. There's more detail in the link but here's a quote:

It's measured by the player's relative plus/minus (plus/minus of when the player is on the ice / [plus/minus when the player is on the ice + plus/minus when the player is off it]) and it's weighted based on TOI versus the player.

Desjardins describes it as "we take the ice time-weighted average of a player's opponents' Corsi number relative to his teammates".

 

[torlev*]

http://hockey-graphs.com/2014/01/06...-players-stats-toronto-maple-leafs-d-edition/

Good illustration of Dion's QOC and how effective he is.

I find it interesting when hockey fans make the correlation that having a higher CORSI equates to being better. How can someone play tougher opponents, outscore them, while other players play weaker ones, get outscored, but because CORSI is lower that means they weren't as good. How is that logical? When did having a good CORSI start mattering more than outscoring the other team?

 

[torlev*]

Me visit reality.....when it is you that fails to see the net result of his play.....and its affect on the team. He lead the league for most goals against while on the ice......

I'm pretty sure Erik Karlsson led the league in goals against while on ice. By a country mile too. Both even strength and overall. What are you basing that on?