Gunnar had a higher d-zone start% and his QoC is a whopping 3.5% lower. Ya think that explains Dion taking twice as many penalties? Hint: no, it doesn't.
News Article: Dion Phaneuf plays against toughest competition
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Gunnar had a higher d-zone start% and his QoC is a whopping 3.5% lower. Ya think that explains Dion taking twice as many penalties? Hint: no, it doesn't.
Bluelines
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Not sure where you got that info but if you look at the previous page, it states Gunnar had a higher Off zone % start than Dion... if you do the math Dion actually had a higher neutral/defensive zone start% .
So while the Ozone % value is higher for Gunnar the actual ATOI that Gunnar had in the neutral/defensive zone is MUCH less than Dions... MUCH less ... What number is higher 61.5% of 1165 or 61.2% of 1414?
Dion actually had 149 seconds more a game in the defensive/neural zone than Gunnar. This is no slight on gunnar its just a fact Dion played more minutes per game. 149 seconds works out to 3 to 5 shifts more a game...246 to 410 more shifts a season vs tougher opponents .... when you look at it this way Hint: Yes it does matter.
Look at me I posted a reply with out being condescending..YEAH ME!!!
No matter how you come at it Dion is a great defender prone to slumps.
Al14
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Not sure where you got that info but if you look at the previous page, it states Gunnar had a higher Off zone % start than Dion... if you do the math Dion actually had a higher neutral/defensive zone start% .
So while the Ozone % value is higher for Gunnar the actual ATOI that Gunnar had in the neutral/defensive zone is MUCH less than Dions... MUCH less ... What number is higher 61.5% of 1165 or 61.2% of 1414?
Dion actually had 149 seconds more a game in the defensive/neural zone than Gunnar. This is no slight on gunnar its just a fact Dion played more minutes per game. 149 seconds works out to 3 to 5 shifts more a game...246 to 410 more shifts a season vs tougher opponents .... when you look at it this way Hint: Yes it does matter.
Look at me I posted a reply with out being condescending..YEAH ME!!!
No matter how you come at it Dion is a great defender prone to slumps.
No matter how you come at it, Dion is a poor defender prone to even poorer defending.
johnny_rudeboy
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Karlsson 2,219 minutes this season.Was on for 117 goals against.
Phaneuf played 1,885 minutes this season. Was on for 101 goals against.
But fun that you compare a 23 year old offensive d-man to a 29 year old, supposedly 2-way d-man. What does that say about him?
Ps, might add that Weber also was on for 101 goals this season but then he also played 2,125 minutes in total.
Bluelines
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Oh..so when one of you haters said that Dion led the league in GA while on the ice... he really didn't mean he ACTUALLY lead the league in GA... he meant meant Dion lead the league for players over the age of 24... Gotcha... maybe next time he should put a little asterisk in there so we know that you guys are taking some "liberties" with the facts.
Eric also had 55.8% Off Zone starts vs Dions 38.8% Off Zone starts... yeah I agree its not fair to compare a player who had such easy minutes to a guy who had incredibly hard minutes...good point... then again its not like Karlson has recently won any awards that would suggest he is in an elite class for D men... if he did win such an award that would probably eliminate that age waiver eh?
That Weber is a special guy eh?
johnny_rudeboy
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Oh..so when one of you haters said that Dion led the league in GA while on the ice... he really didn't mean he ACTUALLY lead the league in GA... he meant meant Dion lead the league for players over the age of 24... Gotcha... maybe next time he should put a little asterisk in there so we know that you guys are taking some "liberties" with the facts.
Eric also had 55.8% Off Zone starts vs Dions 38.8% Off Zone starts... yeah I agree its not fair to compare a player who had such easy minutes to a guy who had incredibly hard minutes...good point... then again its not like Karlson has recently won any awards that would suggest he is in an elite class for D men... if he did win such an award that would probably eliminate that age waiver eh?
That Weber is a special guy eh?
He said Dion led the team in goal against. Not the league.
And yes, there is a difference in a highly offensive 23 year old and a 29 year old with twice as many games. And I added the minutes so you could see for your self that Weber played 300 minutes (or 12-13 more games) more of hockey even do they was on the ice for the same amount of goals.
The previous full season Dion was on the ice for 102 goals against and Weber 67 and Karlsson 85. But that season all 3 defenders played similar minutes (Oh and Karlsson was 21 then).
That means that Phaneuf's GA/min is actually worse than Karlsson's who is generally viewed as a bit of a relative sieve on defense. Wow...given that Phaneuf's forte is on D.
Oh..so when one of you haters said that Dion led the league in GA while on the ice... he really didn't mean he ACTUALLY lead the league in GA... he meant meant Dion lead the league for players over the age of 24... Gotcha... maybe next time he should put a little asterisk in there so we know that you guys are taking some "liberties" with the facts.
Eric also had 55.8% Off Zone starts vs Dions 38.8% Off Zone starts... yeah I agree its not fair to compare a player who had such easy minutes to a guy who had incredibly hard minutes...good point... then again its not like Karlson has recently won any awards that would suggest he is in an elite class for D men... if he did win such an award that would probably eliminate that age waiver eh?
That Weber is a special guy eh?
All very nice, but that doesn't make the statement any less untrue.
I also think even strength TOI and goals against would be a more appropriate comparison. You shouldn't really punish players because they're relied on for PK.
No, it says 38.8% for Dion and 38.5% for Gunnar. 38.8 is higher than 38.5. Can we at least agree on that? Those numbers don't include neutral zone faceoffs anyways, they're %o-zone starts of non-neutral zone faceoffs. I don't think they include changing on the fly either.
The ozone% is lower for Gunnar. It's right there in the damn table. You don't know how much time Dion or Gunnar spent in the d-zone, that's not even remotely close to what that number means. The o-zone start% is just the # of offensive / (# of offensive + # of defensive) faceoffs. It's at best a proxy for time spent in the d-zone, and anyway, even if d-zone time was tracked accurately, having a large number of minutes in the d-zone would not be a good indicator!
Again, we don't know how much more time Dion spent in the d-zone than Gunnar. For 5-on-5 TOI, Dion had 1286:15 and Gunnar 1222:50. An extra 5% TOI even-strength doesn't explain why Dion took twice as many penalties, especially when Gunnar actually spent more time 4-on-5 SH. Speaking of penalties, Dion had 47 minors while Gunnar had 17, so the ratio is probably worse than 2:1. I found that ESPN has this nice breakdown of what kind of penalties they were. Click through to page 2 to see Gunnar's numbers. In summary:
Dion: 5 hooking, 5 tripping, 13 roughing, 4 holding, 5 interference, 5 slashing, 2 cross-checking.
Gunnar: 3 hooking, 2 tripping, 1 roughing, 3 holding, 6 interference, 0 slashes and cross-checks.
In fact you see a remarkable thing here where Gunnar had zero slashes, cross-checks and high sticks, and only 5 stick infractions period (hooking and tripping, assuming it was tripping with a stick). Dion had 5 slashes alone. The nicest thing you can say about Dion is that he didn't high stick anyone either. Maybe some of his 13 (!) roughing penalties were coincidental, but since he's ostensibly our best defenseman, any time he takes himself off the ice and leaves weaker players to cover 4-on-4 or 4-on-5 situations is a blow to the team.
Hell, do the math. Let's say Dion took 40 non-coincidental minors. With an 80% PK, that's 8 goals against he's responsible for. Now add in the fact that Dion also took 2 boarding majors, 3 misconducts and a game misconduct, and it's clear he's taking himself off the ice way too often.
Look at me I posted a reply with out being condescending..YEAH ME!!!
GFY, maybe you can work on posting a reply without being wrong about most of what you say.
Once again, there are no stats to suggest that Dion is a great defender. You can argue that he is doing his best given the tough competition, but there's no way to twist the numbers to show that his best is actually very good.
diceman934
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Oh..so when one of you haters said that Dion led the league in GA while on the ice... he really didn't mean he ACTUALLY lead the league in GA... he meant meant Dion lead the league for players over the age of 24... Gotcha... maybe next time he should put a little asterisk in there so we know that you guys are taking some "liberties" with the facts.
Eric also had 55.8% Off Zone starts vs Dions 38.8% Off Zone starts... yeah I agree its not fair to compare a player who had such easy minutes to a guy who had incredibly hard minutes...good point... then again its not like Karlson has recently won any awards that would suggest he is in an elite class for D men... if he did win such an award that would probably eliminate that age waiver eh?
That Weber is a special guy eh?
Remember we were discussing Dion vs Gunnar and I posted the numbers 101 for Dion and Gunnar 78 despite playing more short handed minutes then Dion he was on for less PP goals against!
I was wrong when I posted that Dion was on the ice for more goals against then any D man in the League....he was tied for 7th....but goals against per minutes played was 2nd.
I'm still waiting for your proof for two things:
1) stats that back up your claim that Dion is a great D man.
2) that he more points then any other D who played against the top players.
Dion was on the ice for more goals against then he was on for goals for.
diceman934
Help is on the way.
Dion was on for 70 even strength goals against. TOI = 1,396:03 = 1 goal against in every 19.94 minutes played even strength.
Gunnar 49 even strength goals against TOI = 1,300:04 = 1 Goal against in every 26.53 minutes played even strength!
I used the goals against while not being on the PK as even strength goals against!
Tell me who had the better year?
Trapper
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Yeah but that doesn't count because Dion and only Dion plays the toughest minutes while his partner who gets the same ice time on the same pair doesn't.
Purity*
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Me thinks Gunnar is getting a serious lack of praise for his efforts this season.
He was definitely our best D-man in the defensive zone, and as soon as we started running 7D, when Phaneuf wasn't his permanent partner anymore, Phaneuf's numbers dropped and Gunnar's stayed the same.
All comparisons and BS put aside, Gunnar has excellent defensive awareness and a good hockey IQ. I REALLY wish we had cap room to find another shut-down D-man to play with Gunnar to give us our own Hammer-Oduya pairing. Phaneuf could put up a ton more points if he's not pressed with massive shut-down assignments. But nonetheless, this thread shows how under-appreciated Gunnar is.
He was definitely our best D-man in the defensive zone, and as soon as we started running 7D, when Phaneuf wasn't his permanent partner anymore, Phaneuf's numbers dropped and Gunnar's stayed the same.
All comparisons and BS put aside, Gunnar has excellent defensive awareness and a good hockey IQ. I REALLY wish we had cap room to find another shut-down D-man to play with Gunnar to give us our own Hammer-Oduya pairing. Phaneuf could put up a ton more points if he's not pressed with massive shut-down assignments. But nonetheless, this thread shows how under-appreciated Gunnar is.
Trapper
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All I hear is Phaneuf plays the toughest minutes. What does Gunnar play? Where are the multiple Gunnarsson fault threads? Why do we have to make excuses all the time? Yeah he's better at offense. No he's a better 2-way. Yeah he doesn't have much speed. Oh get him a partner. He plays at these times. The rest of the D sucks. It's the same with Kessel. Bozak,JVR don't have as many threads as Kessel. Why?
Oh..so when one of you haters said that Dion led the league in GA while on the ice... he really didn't mean he ACTUALLY lead the league in GA... he meant meant Dion lead the league for players over the age of 24... Gotcha... maybe next time he should put a little asterisk in there so we know that you guys are taking some "liberties" with the facts.
Eric also had 55.8% Off Zone starts vs Dions 38.8% Off Zone starts... yeah I agree its not fair to compare a player who had such easy minutes to a guy who had incredibly hard minutes...good point... then again its not like Karlson has recently won any awards that would suggest he is in an elite class for D men... if he did win such an award that would probably eliminate that age waiver eh?
That Weber is a special guy eh?
Sure is, scored 3 times as many goals this past season as our boy Dion.
johnny_rudeboy
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Looked pretty special in Sochi as well. At least Dion made it to the summer camp.
Bluelines
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1) So I've posted these stats MULTIPLE times, just click through this thread and you'll ignore them again.
2) See point #1...
Bluelines
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My bad on the 38.8, 38.5, still does not change the fact his ATOI was considerably more in the Def/Neutral zone.
So Dion takes a lot of penalties..whooptee freaking doo... if he's as bad as all you haters are trying to paint him, its a good thing he's off the ice right?
One thing is for sure you guys will never believe that Dion is a great defender till someone in the media tells you he is.
pucci2001
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Dion can't even spell defense, he can't spell heart either. He had more balls in his rookie season than he has shown in his time here in Toronto as captain. I would honestly let Dion go for free just to shed the dead weight cap space for the next 7 years. No he isn't the worst dman he is really good 2nd pair, 2nd pp unit guy. He is a terrible PP QB and terrible as your #1 shutdown dman. People like you need to realize just because he is our best blueliner doesnt mean he is a great dman. The fact he has that letter on his jersey means a lot too with the lack of emotion he plays with. He showed more emotion playing ping pong against Kessel than he has all season on the ice, on the bench.
No has nothing to do with the media. It has to do with all the bone heads things he does on the ice. I would start naming them but theres just to damn many. It's hard to play in the NHL when everyone can think 3 steps a head and you can only have half a thought at most times.
Bluelines
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...right because terrible players make it to the Summer camp.. Canada could have filled out 3 teams that would have competed for the Gold....
If you're implying the that didn't make the Olympic team is some sort of indictment to the lack of his ability :
Lucic...clearly sucks... didn't make the team...
Hall...clearly sucks... didn't make the team...
Eberle...clearly sucks... didn't make the team...
O'Reilly...clearly sucks... didn't make the team...
MacKinnion...clearly sucks... didn't make the team...
and on and on and on and on and on...
yubbers
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I was called a Dion hater 4 years ago and back then the title was more warranted. But hating on him now is just plain logic. It's like you ignore his below mediocre resume since being here.
It's not hating when the results speak for themselves. We're not haters.
It's not hating when the results speak for themselves. We're not haters.
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Well except for Lucic all the other guys have greatness ahead of them and may well be the core next time. Dion has had his best days, think about that for a moment. The Phaneuf we'll see in the coming years will only be worse than the one we have now.
I was hoping Phaneuf would take part in the upcoming tournament in Europe to show his fans (and distractors) that he still has what it takes to lead the Leafs and to put it in the face of the naysayers that he belonged with the elite in Sochi. I wondered if indeed he was injured in the latter part of the season as many of his apologists have suggested, but there has been no confirmation of this and I note that he will take part in a Red Bull run shortly, so any injury must have been minor. This all assumed that he was even invited, but he shot that down early by stating that he would not participate if invited. Our Leaf captain.
All very fine and dandy but that post was in a thread of posts where someone erroneously claimed he had the worst in the league. Not just compared to the other ones on the team.
