Did signing Tavares lead to the Leafs' downfall?

[Stamkos4life]

I wonder if Tavares regrets leaving the islanders yet.

The islanders were better last year, made it further in the playoffs and are better this year.

I thought the islanders werent gonna be good when they lost JT. Proved me wrong.

 

[POVERTY]

In my opinion it was the Nylander signing. Leafs had all of the leverage in the world and Dubas still caved. There was absolutely no reason to meet Nylander's demands at that point in time, especially when the team was playing great and players like Pastrnak and Draisaitl were already out there providing way more value per dollar.

Once you cave on a player like Nylander you lose so much leverage in negotiating with players like Matthews and Marner. Funnily enough I recall the Leafs playing some of their best hockey while Nylander was still holding out, and they haven't played at that level since.

 

[Henkka]

Tavares isn't the problem imo. While William Nylander is off to a good start this year, it's his contract that's the problem. He should have been used to address deficiencies on the blue line. Go with Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Kapanen in your top six. You get to keep Kadri most likely. It's a more well-rounded roster.

So the problem is Dubas? He made all those moves and contracts.

 

[Stamkos4life]

So the problem is Dubas? He made all those moves and contracts.

Yes, the problem is dubas.

You'll find some leaf fans who want to just blame everything on the coach because it is much easier then accepting that your whole team is junk.

 

[dm1371]

The Kadri trade was a big mistake.

 

[BLNY]

So the problem is Dubas? He made all those moves and contracts.

I'd say he's part of it. So is Babcock. His contract stipulates a level of input on the roster that many coaches don't have. What the level is is unclear, but it's being discussed in the Fire Babcock thread.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

No Tavares was the only good move they've made in 5 years.

Matthews - poor contract. Shouldve maxed out.
Marner - should have traded for D
Kadri - should have kept
Nylander - fudged it letting him sit out, but in hindsight looking great now.

And they're still paying Kessel LOL

 

[tony d]

No it never. Signing Nylander instead of trading him for defense played a factor in what is happening right now with Toronto.

 

[Axel574]

That's not how it works though. Tavares is worth 11M$ and then some. Remember - he had been offered 13M$ he turned down - and likely could have gotten closer to 14 or more if he went for max money with any city.

If the Leafs decide to move on and/or make a major change to team - they can trade Tavares away at any time with 0 retention for a top return (prospects, picks, established players - whatever you decide to go for).

Tavares at 11M is an extremely valuable asset in the NHL - and so the Leafs as much better off for having signed him than if they hadn't.

Do they look better off at the moment?

 

[Ms Maggie]

Don't see it. Just because A happens then B happens doesn't mean there's a causal relationship.

 

[Canovin]

Signing Tavares wasn't a mistake, but at 11M was stupid. That's no discount no matter which way you want to spin it

Signing at 9.5M would have brought down Marner, Matthews and Nylander contracts by 1M each if not more.

 

[jfhabs]

In insight, it sure looks like they created problem with their salary cap, having to sign their young guys to higher salaries quicker. However, Tavares is a very good player and adding him wasn't the problem. The way they handled the negociation with Nylander, trading Kadri for a return that didn't pay off (they got a lesser player in Kerfoot and a similar dman to Gardiner in Barrie while letting Gardiner walk), no money left for depth specially 2nd goalie.

The positive : sign Kapanen/Johnson to good deals, find a good player for free in Mikheyev, their core is still young, even tho they have 3 players at 11M those 3 guys still have value on the market if they decided to trade one.

The negative : Lacking depth specially 2nd goalie and defense, all defensemen are FA come summer time with not a lot of money left, Andersen only has 1 year left after this year, outside of Korshkov and Sandin they don't have much in the pipeline to help them in the next 1-2 years

 

[S3rkie]

Saying yes outright is an oversimplified way to look at it, but I think it's a factor. It's a string of decisions made after signing him. In an ideal world a player like JT is added after the rest of your core is locked up. But I get jumping on an opportunity that never comes around. But The choice to not move Nylander, to keep forcing a square peg into a round hole with Babcock, Trading for Barrie only to no give him opportunities to be the player he's best at being. To me, it's just all symptoms of an organization thats being pulled in multiple directions. There's not top to bottom direction, theres a GM who's trying to build his vision and make a legacy, there is a coach who's stubborn and trusts in his own way of doing things, there's players who probably sense this and haven't fully bought in. I don't think the team is doomed, I just think they need to regroup front office wise.

 

[benedictTavares]

Leafs just need a few good D to sign for less money than they would get elsewhere. Living their dreams, taking a home rebate or a chance at the cup.

You couldn't even get the guy who posted a picture of him in Leafs pajama's to take a discount. Who do you think is going to be signing for a discount. This is no fault of the leafs it's not exactly the norm for NHL players to take less money as a group. I think the Bruins and TBL are the only two teams with multiple people taking less money.

Signing Tavares was NOT the mistake.

Mistakes where:
-Giving Tavares the C
-Not trading another scorer for D and depth.
-Placing skill above toughness
-Maybe buckling to Tavares demanding the extra money(this is only rumor so its not really a mistake I guess)

You sign Tavares since it gives you a major asset for free. You should have then traded another scoring fwd for Defence and depth.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Wasn’t Judas that gave out the contracts. Mathews and Marner has unprecedented contracts. That’s on the players and GM. Also, the shinny hockey they play is also on the GM. Why not get a Tom Khunackel who can play but also PK and forecheck for cheap?

Also glad that because of Dubas we see the return of the “locker room guy”. Has always been a thing, even if it’s fun to make fun of.

Its bizarre to me how islanders fans mock the Leafs. Like, we couldn't care less about you, you gifted us a guy because of incompetent owners and management, he puts up 47 goals last year, a career high, and we still dont think about you. Have you guys thought about getting a 47 goal scorer? I hear they're good in the locker room.

 

[MikeK]

Paying Marner close to an $11M AAV was a bigger mistake than signing Tavares. Signing Matthews to a 5 year $11.6M AAV deal was a bigger mistake than signing Tavares. Tavares is the least of their mistakes over the past 2 years.

 

[NewtJorden]

The huge money given to Tavares is the mistake. Especially considering they knew they would have to give a lot of money to Matthews, Marner and Nylander too.

 

[J T Money]

11.6mil for a sub 70pt ELC center, who had no arbitration rights, was the downfall. Most teams signed their ELC superstars to bridge deals as a means to build the team around them.

Tavares is a proven commodity and can live up to his 11mil contract.

 

[benedictTavares]

Its bizarre to me how islanders fans mock the Leafs. Like, we couldn't care less about you, you gifted us a guy because of incompetent owners and management, he puts up 47 goals last year, a career high, and we still dont think about you. Have you guys thought about getting a 47 goal scorer? I hear they're good in the locker room.

You guys don't care about us yet you reply to every post we make. It's hilarious and I would take playing winning hockey over having a 47 goal player in the lockerroom. LOL

Got to defend muh guy I guess. You guys should have another JT day I hear he is feeling a little depressed. Maybe give him the key to the city.

 

[ijuka]

Signing him was fine, of course. If they wanted to, they could have traded him for profit, that pretty much means that signing him was always something one should do.

The mistake they made is naming him the captain.

 

[Theodore450]

Signing Tavares was a bad move, but when a guy like that is willing to come in his prime at a reasonable cap, you sign him. The real mistake was not having any plan whatsoever to build the rest of the team. Dubas couldn’t contain himself he had to have that sexy forward core, thought players who just “want to be leafs” and lost all negotiating power.

in my opinion he’s a terrible gm that has no idea what he’s doing. Tavares signing was not the issue, any good gm would have signed him and built a team

 

[FourRings]

I'd agree with this, but IMO the most self-inflicted part of it was going crazy on JT. You can't help it if your young guys want to hold out and force the issue for a big contract. But going bonkers on UFA, giving a guy a contract that has him at $11M as a 34-year-old, that's a buyout situation waiting to happen AND it creates an impossible cap scenario for every other negotiation. To do that at a position where you're already pretty well set? That's a massive risk to the point of being an all-or-nothing swing for a Cup. Anything less than that, even a long playoff run that falls short, and you're left asking what else they could have done to build a more complete team around that young core.

Exactly. And everyone mentioning "we could've had Pesce++ for Nylander" is kidding themselves. If there were good value trades on the table for Nylander, they would've been taken by now.

It’s all about team needs. The Leafs bet on pure skill going after Tavares. Unfortunately for them, as Ovi so bluntly put it, hockey isn’t a ballet.

They didn’t NEED a second flight center (though it certainly doesn’t hurt to have 2). But the opportunity cost is cap space to fill more pressing team needs

I've been saying this since last September. Just because you can sign Tavares, doesn't mean you should.

That's not how it works though. Tavares is worth 11M$ and then some. Remember - he had been offered 13M$ he turned down - and likely could have gotten closer to 14 or more if he went for max money with any city.

If the Leafs decide to move on and/or make a major change to team - they can trade Tavares away at any time with 0 retention for a top return (prospects, picks, established players - whatever you decide to go for).

Tavares at 11M is an extremely valuable asset in the NHL - and so the Leafs as much better off for having signed him than if they hadn't.

He's not "extremely valuable" at $11M. Tavares is a very good player, but he's aging and his play is deteriorating. He looks a lot like he looked during his last year on the Island. I thought it was just a lack of interest/protecting himself for Free Agency, but he's playing like that again this year.

As for moving Tavares, the Leafs a) aren't going to get a ton for him due to their current cap restraints and b) if they choose to move him in the future (~3 years), the return won't be as great because his production will likely have fallen AND he'll be about 32.

It was a bad move by Dubas. You can't lock up your 2C for that much (regardless of talent) when you know you have to pay someone like Marner too.

Look at the Blackhawks; they didn't need two elite Cs because they had Kane.

Pittsburgh did it with two elite Cs, but didn't have a remarkably high priced winger.

It was a bad decision. They would've been better off letting JT go to SJ.

 

[VictorLustig]

Downfall?

 

[Man Bear Pig]

You couldn't even get the guy who posted a picture of him in Leafs pajama's to take a discount. Who do you think is going to be signing for a discount. This is no fault of the leafs it's not exactly the norm for NHL players to take less money as a group. I think the Bruins and TBL are the only two teams with multiple people taking less money.

Signing Tavares was NOT the mistake.

Mistakes where:
-Giving Tavares the C
-Not trading another scorer for D and depth.
-Placing skill above toughness
-Maybe buckling to Tavares demanding the extra money(this is only rumor so its not really a mistake I guess)

You sign Tavares since it gives you a major asset for free. You should have then traded another scoring fwd for Defence and depth.

You can't even get the pajama part right. They weren't pajamas. You guys can't tell the difference between bedsheets and pajamas? also, how pathetic is it that you guys go after someone for their bedsheets from when they were a kid? Such a sad sack of fans.

 

[Edmonton East]

• There's a case to be made that Dubas was playing NHL 20 GM in signing Tavares. Loading up on scorers works in a video game, but in reality, you need role players. You need grinding centers, you need defensively responsible wingers and you need physical defensemen. Dubas apparently just planned to win every game 6-5, and when his planned offense didn't materialize, his team sunk like a stone.

The bolded should be stickied on the Devs' board. And probably several other team boards as well.

People constantly jump from the decreasing physicality in today's game to "we just need speed and offense!!!! That's it!! Size also doesn't matter AT ALL!"

Leafs will still be a playoff team though. Too much skill not to be. But don't see a roster like this - playing the style they currently do - winning a Cup.