Did signing Tavares lead to the Leafs' downfall?

[Dr Pepper]

I think most have rightly pointed out that the Leafs' troubles started when Nylander decided he wanted to play hardball because he felt he was a better player than David Pastrnak.

Boy was he right about that, eh?

The Leafs were on top of the world in the early months of that season, yet once Nylander came back into the fold things seem to falter a bit. They still made the playoffs of course but Pastrnak's Bruins once again made sure they wouldn't accomplish anything once they got there.

Dubas should've either let him sit out the whole season, or shipped him off for help elsewhere. Bending over backwards to accommodate Nylander, even if only to fulfill his promise that "he can and he will" sign the "big four" players, was the start of some pretty poor decisions made by the Leafs GM.

That's not on Tavares, who is merely living out his dream playing for the Leafs.

 

[koyvoo]

This much is true-

Since he left the islanders for a better chance at winning with the leafs the islanders have 12 more regular season points (with 4 games in hand) over a 100+ game sample size; and they also have one more playoff series win than the leafs.

 

[hoglund]

I don't follow the Leafs situation closely but if their fanbase turns against Tavares, I guess he'd be the most expensive scapegoat ever.

He's not being blamed by any fans, everyone wants Babcock fired.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Signing JT didn't lead to the Leafs downfall, but signing JT and insisting on keeping all of Matthews, Marner and Nylander led to their downfall. It doesn't take a mathematician to realize that you're going to have troubles building a complete team if you have 4 players taking up 50% of your cap.

I'd agree with this, but IMO the most self-inflicted part of it was going crazy on JT. You can't help it if your young guys want to hold out and force the issue for a big contract. But going bonkers on UFA, giving a guy a contract that has him at $11M as a 34-year-old, that's a buyout situation waiting to happen AND it creates an impossible cap scenario for every other negotiation. To do that at a position where you're already pretty well set? That's a massive risk to the point of being an all-or-nothing swing for a Cup. Anything less than that, even a long playoff run that falls short, and you're left asking what else they could have done to build a more complete team around that young core.

 

[nihlify]

I think most have rightly pointed out that the Leafs' troubles started when Nylander decided he wanted to play hardball because he felt he was a better player than David Pastrnak.

Boy was he right about that, eh?

The Leafs were on top of the world in the early months of that season, yet once Nylander came back into the fold things seem to falter a bit. They still made the playoffs of course but Pastrnak's Bruins once again made sure they wouldn't accomplish anything once they got there.

Dubas should've either let him sit out the whole season, or shipped him off for help elsewhere. Bending over backwards to accommodate Nylander, even if only to fulfill his promise that "he can and he will" sign the "big four" players, was the start of some pretty poor decisions made by the Leafs GM.

That's not on Tavares, who is merely living out his dream playing for the Leafs.

I don't see how sitting Nylander would have made Toronto play much better today.

 

[Axel574]

Its really a stupid take tbh

No its not a mistake. They added him for free.

If you want to argue they have too much forwards and the way team is built could be better - fine. But having Tavares increases your trading power vastly. With Tavares - they could trade any of Tavares, Marner or Matthews for a crazy return and still keep the other 2.

Without Tavares - you have less to trade and Marner/Matthews are even more untouchable.

So no - landing Tavares was one of the best free agent signings in the nhl this millenium.

They added him without having to return assets, but 11MM 'aint free, as evidenced by this very discussion. The Leafs are now paying dearly for their shortsightedness.

 

[Tres Peleches]

It’s all about team needs. The Leafs bet on pure skill going after Tavares. Unfortunately for them, as Ovi so bluntly put it, hockey isn’t a ballet.

They didn’t NEED a second flight center (though it certainly doesn’t hurt to have 2). But the opportunity cost is cap space to fill more pressing team needs

 

[BruinsBtn]

Their downfall is building around skill and ignoring character. By most accounts Tavares is a hard worker who wants to win. When they got him, it was an opportunity to ship out a mercenary or two in exchange for a high-character guy.

 

[hockeyguru]

That GM made the biggest mistake by signing JT, nothing against JT but not what Leafs needed.

his mistakes stem from overpaying matthews. it lead to marner getting what he got and it gives them little cap space to make changes via a non-trade route

 

[Magnus the Duck]

That's not on Tavares, who is merely living out his dream playing for the Leafs.

Leafs just need a few good D to sign for less money than they would get elsewhere. Living their dreams, taking a home rebate or a chance at the cup.

 

[I Hate Philadelphia]

Leafs just need a few good D to sign for less money than they would get elsewhere. Living their dreams, taking a home rebate or a chance at the cup.

*a chance at making it past the first round

 

[typicalsavage]

Cizikas is better than every leaf player you listed up there by a country mile.

Ok so? It doesnt change the fact the Leafs depth forwards are better. The fact that the Isles put together a nice streak doesnt all of a sudden make them a model organization.

 

[hector morrison]

(Obviously as an Isles fan, this thread will be taken in a very rational way by readers...)

There's no question Tavares is a talented player. 47 goals and 88 points last year, 14 points in 15 games this year. It's not really a question of whether he is worth what he's getting paid.

The question is, did the Leafs make a mistake in adding him to their roster, when they really didn't need another high-powered forward.

• Adding Tavares at $11 million per year instantly increased what the younger RFAs would be getting paid on their next contract. You could argue that Matthews and Marner were getting bank either way, but with Tavares as a team comparable, it made it easy for the duo to point at Tavares and say, there's what we will be getting paid. Look at the other big RFA signings around the league, and only Panarin topped them, and most are well below their price tags. This ends up hurting the team depth, as the cap space shrinks.
• Adding $11 million for one forward, meant $11 million less in cap for depth players, defense and back-up goaltending. If they hadn't signed Tavares (besides whatever less they would have possibly paid Matthews and Marner), this past offseason they could have added, for example, Robin Lehner, Ben Chiarot, and Derrick Brassard (or any other number of solid depth additions.)
• For a team that seems stuck in a morass, Tavares is not the captain to raise them up. He's never been a rah-rah guy, instead letting his play speak for him. That works if you've got the character in the line-up to follow an example, but with such a young team, they either needed a big voice or someone who's been the summit. Tavares is not that guy.
• There's a case to be made that Dubas was playing NHL 20 GM in signing Tavares. Loading up on scorers works in a video game, but in reality, you need role players. You need grinding centers, you need defensively responsible wingers and you need physical defensemen. Dubas apparently just planned to win every game 6-5, and when his planned offense didn't materialize, his team sunk like a stone.

The worst thing about the situation for the Leafs, because of all the long-term, high-dollar contracts, is, there's no clear way out. You either have to sell low on players and set yourself back even more, or pin your hopes on a new coach being able to turn players into something they currently aren't, since the players they need aren't on the roster, and there's no room to add them.

The cap going up gets them out of a jam. In the mean time ,these high priced players can't blame their team -mates for not being good enough(assuming higher paid players equals better players). They are the masters of their own fate. The expectations of them to lead the Leafs to playoff success/cup is increased exponentially with the high salary. It's early yet,they are young,with many hurdles to jump. Some luck is needed as well,but the pressure is gonna get real.I hope they can handle it.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Players are human. When you see 3 players making 11M, another that was gifted 7M for holding out and say you are Rielly making 5M per, you got to have your 3, 11M players and the 7M be that much better than the rest of the team buy in. When I say that much better, I don't mean Draisaitl/McDavid better. Just substantially better in effort, paying the price, and stats wise. If I am the low guy on the totem pole, if I don't see this, I don't buy in. I won't go through the wall for the team. It is just human nature.

Tavares was not a piece the Leafs needed, Bozak won a cup as key center on the Blues. He's a proven cup winner. He also comes 60% cheaper than Tavares. He could have been resigned. The Tavares signing changed the culture of the Leafs. Once he got 11M, Nylander wanted his piece, then Matthews, then Marner. Then you have it filter throughout the line up. Which the cause and effect the Leafs lost a lot of their character and the few players that played with pride and grit from that team due to cap implications.

So if we look back to where this all started to unravel, I would say it was when Lou was not rehired, and then the signing of JT started the chain of events that brings us to the present. Leafs out of a playoff spot looking for an identity.

 

[deca guard]

it was signing dubas thats led to the problems . like others have said leaf shoulda traded nylander for d . what dubas isnt experienced enough to realize is that an nhl rink is too small to win with , in a capped league , talent alone . youve got to have some size n physicality to create space and back down opponant attacks . plus babs isnt a genius strategist (he can be very dense) thats going to create a high octane attack , he believes in grinding it out and needs his grinders . hes a great leader but not a great strategist .

 

[alg363636]

Meh - I think they needed to sign Tavares. They had the top UFA (and one of the best in recent memory) basically came to them and ask to be signed for less than other teams were offering him.

The issue is they already had an elite forward group and a mediocre defense. As soon as Tavares was signed one of Marner/Nylander needed to be traded for D. It gave them the opportunity to sacrifice a top forward to fix their issues and still get better.

 

[Kranix]

Yuh broke my heart John Tuhvayriz!!! I loved you. You're dead to me, I never cared for you...SNAKE!!!
My son will neva weya the Tuhvayriz jersey I bequeethed him in my livin will.
I burned it!!!
I love you please come back

 

[BrockLobster]

Ok so? It doesnt change the fact the Leafs depth forwards are better. The fact that the Isles put together a nice streak doesnt all of a sudden make them a model organization.

No they're not. At all actually.

 

[Axel574]

Ok so? It doesnt change the fact the Leafs depth forwards are better. The fact that the Isles put together a nice streak doesnt all of a sudden make them a model organization.

How are they better? More points? It that your only measuring stick when making that claim? The Islander have much more depth at every position over this current Leafs team.

This is not a simple winning streak either... it almost 110 games of playing winning Hockey.

Islanders > Leafs. I don't think it can even be argued anymore.

 

[Hatrix]

No.

The laughs consistently dumping players with any ability to play defense has. As has been the case for several seasons now and the team rightfully criticized for, you can't win playing a "run n gun" style forever especially in the playoffs where defense has proven year after year to win championships.

 

[Henkka]

Ok so? It doesnt change the fact the Leafs depth forwards are better. The fact that the Isles put together a nice streak doesnt all of a sudden make them a model organization.

That nice streak from last seaason:

NY Islanders
100 games, 62 wins, 132 points. (0.660 pts/game)

Toronto Maple Leafs
102 games, 55 wins, 122 points. (0.587 pts/game)

You can include the playoff wins to favor more NYI if you like.

 

[BLNY]

Tavares isn't the problem imo. While William Nylander is off to a good start this year, it's his contract that's the problem. He should have been used to address deficiencies on the blue line. Go with Tavares, Matthews, Marner and Kapanen in your top six. You get to keep Kadri most likely. It's a more well-rounded roster.

 

[Coaches Coroner]

Yup, it's all over, should probably sell the Franchise. But we need 1000 threads like this first.

 

[bobholly39]

They added him without having to return assets, but 11MM 'aint free, as evidenced by this very discussion. The Leafs are now paying dearly for their shortsightedness.

That's not how it works though. Tavares is worth 11M$ and then some. Remember - he had been offered 13M$ he turned down - and likely could have gotten closer to 14 or more if he went for max money with any city.

If the Leafs decide to move on and/or make a major change to team - they can trade Tavares away at any time with 0 retention for a top return (prospects, picks, established players - whatever you decide to go for).

Tavares at 11M is an extremely valuable asset in the NHL - and so the Leafs as much better off for having signed him than if they hadn't.

 

[Frank Drebin]

So wait, you think passing on Tavares for Lehner, Chariot and Brassard is What the Leafs shouldve done?? It’s obvious the team isnt motivated, the Islanders are. You think the Leafs would be better if they swapped Kapanan, Mikheyev, Kerfort etc for Komarov, Cizikas, Cluttercrap and whatever else the Islanders have? What exactly have the Isles done to be a model franchise? Get swept by a mediocre team and have a hot start?

Why the hell would the leafs sign a 5m backup? How about being able to keep Kadri?