Did Gilmour ask to be traded?

[DeathToAllButMetal]

See that's just it, those two years. And goaltending was just as responsible in 93 as it was in 99.

And I was around to enjoy it.

Seriously? Goaltending wasn't nearly the same. If you really were old enough to watch in the early 90s, you'll well remember that the Leafs under Burns played a fantastic team defensive system that limited chances, big time. Potvin was very good, yes, but it was a team thing all the way, led by Burns and some very solid stay-at-home D men, most notably Sylvain Lefebvre.

That was not the story at all during the Cujo era. Quinn didn't approach D anything close to how Burns did. His team played a much more open style and relied on Cujo to bail them out, which he did.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

I saw Dougie out with this hot black haired chick at a Spanish resturant, I farted as I walked by him. True story.

Did you blame it on him for drinking too much milk?

 

[keonsbitterness]

What happened in 93 and 94 pretty much saved the Leafs.

Other than no longer being bad (which was great of course), saved them from what? You sort of make it sound as if the Leafs were in danger of moving or something.

 

[Stephen]

That's complete and utter ********. They were older, but still had some good youth, Potvin was young, and they could have competed with some FA signings. Clark was freaking 27 when he was traded in 94. An old 27, sure, but he had a lot left in him, especially if he'd stayed in Toronto. Lefebvre was only 26. Gilmour was 30. Andreychuk was 30. Gartner was up there, but he still had a couple of 30 goal seasons left. This wasn't an ancient team. It was in its prime and could have competed for another two-three years if they'd solved the second-line centre problem without a big trade. There was a UFA option available. Fletcher didn't think it would make enough of a difference.

1994 was the end of an era. Wendel was hobbled up beyong belief by that point, barely making an impact with the Nords before being cast off for a fresher Claude Lemieux, Gilmour's chronic foot problems meant he couldn't play at the level he used to. If we didn't win a cup with Dave Andreychuk scoring 50 goals two years in a row, how were we going to manage when he was failing to hit 30? Borschevsky was pretty much a non factor after 1993. Gartner was still good for 30 goals a year.

What free agents were out there summer of 1994?

http://nhltradeshistory.blogspot.ca/2007/08/trades-of-1994.html

Hmmm, let's see:

Bernie Nicholls, Craig MacTavish, Jimmy Carson, Randy Cunneyworth, Bob Probert, Len Barrie, that's about all the NHL free agents worth anything at the time. How were the Leafs going to add any of those players and beat Detroit, Colorado and New Jersey the following couple of years?

 

[Stephen]

Seriously? Goaltending wasn't nearly the same. If you really were old enough to watch in the early 90s, you'll well remember that the Leafs under Burns played a fantastic team defensive system that limited chances, big time. Potvin was very good, yes, but it was a team thing all the way, led by Burns and some very solid stay-at-home D men, most notably Sylvain Lefebvre.

That was not the story at all during the Cujo era. Quinn didn't approach D anything close to how Burns did. His team played a much more open style and relied on Cujo to bail them out, which he did.

Actually, those Leafs teams were defensively responsible 'for the time'. By the standards of the dead puck era a decade later, they were a pretty loose and free flowing team with no concept of slowing down the rush and making it difficult to get through the neutral zone as teams later employed. Re-watch that era again and Potvin was put into some ridiculously precarious situations on a minute by minute basis. For the time, they were defensively aware, but watch those Kings games again, it's like a basketball team the way they traded chances.

 

[BBLeafsFan]

He lives a few houses down from my folks. I'll ask him next time I see him

 

[spidergoalie]

I think the point one poster made about how bad the Leafs were before Gilmour is very important.
It is part of why he is seen as such a Leaf icon.
The hero saves a damsel in distress, not one who is doing ok on her own. The Leafs were definitely a damsel in distress. Whether Gilmour single handedly saved them might be up for debate, but the team absolutely did turn around upon his arrival.
Sundin through no fault of his own, was not part of a team that turned an embarrassing franchise around.
It is interesting that it seems to be the younger folks in the Sundin camp and the older ones in the Gilmour camp. Let us remember the older ones were around for both.

Myself, I remember from Keon as captain. I would list Gilmour and Keon as my all time favorite Leafs (who aren't goalies)
I liked Sundin, though I was underwhelmed at first and bitter at the dealing of Wendel, but I grew to really like and appreciate Sundin. However he simply never captured my imagination the way Keon or Gilmour did. It isn't about stats or nationality either. And it certainly isn't about Don Cherry's crush. I just love the way Keon and Gilmour played, and the leadership they brought. Even before Dougie was captain he was a team leader.

As for how they ended there time as Leafs, I don't remember if Dougie asked or not. I do remember it was rumoured he would be traded for quite a long time before it happened, and many felt he had to be traded for the team to build going forward. I was very dissapointed when it was announced.

Sundin for me was worse. He claimed he didn't want to be a rental, and thus didn't let the Leafs deal him to get something in return. Then he signed essentially as a rental for the Canucks.
I absolutely would have preferred it if he had allowed the Leafs to trade him to build for the future.

All of that said, I'd LOVE to have either of them in their primes on the Leafs today.

 

[Squiffy]

Douggie wanted out is the way I remember it. No one really blamed him, it made sense for him and the Leafs, but yes is my memory regarding the OP's question.

Stephen has had some very good posts in this thread IMO for more detailed info regarding it all.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Killer turned this whole team around. Him and Burns. They were the biggest catalysts. I love Killer. Players want to win, we were rebuilding, etc. Don't care either way really, my memory is only positive.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Dave Andreychuk was a 50 goal scorer long before he got with Dougie. But yes, the chemistry those two had on the ice was indisputable.

For those too young to remember (or were still a gleam in your papa's eye) the 1992/93 playoff run, that team was special. There's a reason a VHS tape was made about that team, if you have a chance watch "The Passion Returns" on YouTube.

The most goals Andreychuk scored before playing here was 41, look it up if you wish I did last night.

See that's just it, those two years. And goaltending was just as responsible in 93 as it was in 99.

And I was around to enjoy it.

Goaltending was good in 93, but it wasn't as necessary as Burns iced a solid big six defense core.
Fuhr and Potvin provided great backstopping but during the Quinn era it was CuJo who kept us from getting clobbered. Night in night out. We had terrible defence under Quinn and I dare say Quinn and Rotten Ronnie had similiar on ice strategies.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Neither was the team, which started to coast downhill. I still think the best move for the Leafs at that time was keeping Clark and moving heaven and earth to sign Bernie Nicholls that summer as the second centre. Sundin was a good move, but the Leafs gave up too much with shipping off Clark and Lefebvre. Gutted the team by ditching Clark's heart and lost a ton of their ability on the blue line without Lefebvre.

I agree. I still hate that Gilmour/Sundin trade to this day, regardless of the player Sundin became for us.

Lefebvre was hugely underrated as a defenceman, we never had the same kind of stellar defence until, dare I say, what we are starting to see now.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

As been mentioned a few people may not have been around or old enough to enjoy those early nineties teams.


Game seven Toronto Vs Detroit

Detroit still had over a million people living there, Burns looked healthy, Fletcher looked coherent, and Bob Cole and Harry Neale at their zenith IMHO

 

[therealkoho]

Douggie wanted out is the way I remember it. No one really blamed him, it made sense for him and the Leafs, but yes is my memory regarding the OP's question.

Stephen has had some very good posts in this thread IMO for more detailed info regarding it all.

I remember him somewhat saying the right things, but there was a lot of background noise in the boardroom(what else is new) that was driving the whole fiasco.

Stavros' company Overwaitea was bleeding gobs of cash, he was ill and near bankruptcy. With partner LarryT first in line to buy the Leafs he convinced the ailing Stavros to dismantle the team. I'd heard it was Tanenbaum who ordered Fletcher to shed the teams highest paid players in order to reverse the winning trend and drive down the club's intrinsic value, to get the price of purchase into his wheelhouse.

So Gilmour asking to be traded is one of those things that may be more myth then fact. I remember it as Fletcher going to him and saying he had to be traded and Gilmour reluctantly agreeing and not being very happy about it.

 

[ACC1224]

I met Doug Gilmour in 94 during the strike season, have to tell you guys he is the real deal, a very nice man, I was at a bar and he came in with people he knew from the Keg. He ended up paying for everyone, even people he didn't know in the lounge we at. One European guy probably on vacation asked who was that guy who bought drinks for the bar rather astoundingly? I laughed and said where are you from, he said Germany. I said imagine if Boris Becker bought you drinks and mulitply it by 100x, that's how big this guy is in Toronto.

I can concur, great guy. He lived a couple floors above me for a season, Polo building Bay just South of Bloor. We spoke quite often, never about hockey. I use to tease him for walking his girlfriends(Amy?) little dog.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I can concur, great guy. He lived a couple floors above me for a season, Polo building Bay just South of Bloor. We spoke quite often, never about hockey. I use to tease him for walking his girlfriends(Amy?) little dog.

Yeah, hockey people from my experience are the nicest of all athletes. I met Darcy Tucker also before his 1st year with the Habs, he was a nice young man, wasn't famous then but he and his then GF ordered dinner from me. Really respectful kid at the time, who would have knew he would go onto playing with the Leafs.

Actually the scouts were the best company, once they knew you, and knew you knew hockey, they would treat you like one of the guys. Always got a kick when Barry Trapp aka Trapper would ask me about my opinion on players. He and Herb Brooks were my 2 favorite scouts to chat and joke with.

Dougie was not with Amy then I recall, I think the girl from the Keg was before her. The guy had an aura about him, just lit up a room.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Seems like there are more 'idiotic' people on here making derogatory comments about Sundin than the other way around.

Gilmour was awesome for two seasons, Mats carried this team for 13 years.

Anybody hating on either should probably put the blue and white jersey down and go to bed.

Absolutely....ridiculous..the hate Sundin gets on these boards and nobody in their right mind doesn't appreciate Doug Gilmour. How many times does it need to be said. He was good in his tenure in Toronto but so was Mats. Very good. Gilmours' two years were possibly the greatest by a Leaf in team history. He didnt really do anything special other than those two years but he was good. Mats was damn good his entire career in Toronto. Both captains took the Leafs to Conference finals..Mats 3 times I believe and Gilmour once. Neither guy won a Cup (In Toronto) and Dougie only won once in his career with Calgary. Both captains career numbers are very close. Mats was by far the bigger international star and I am willing to bet that most non-Leaf fans would say Mats was the better overall player over the span of their careers.

 

[The Apologist]

Seriously? Goaltending wasn't nearly the same. If you really were old enough to watch in the early 90s, you'll well remember that the Leafs under Burns played a fantastic team defensive system that limited chances, big time. Potvin was very good, yes, but it was a team thing all the way, led by Burns and some very solid stay-at-home D men, most notably Sylvain Lefebvre.

That was not the story at all during the Cujo era. Quinn didn't approach D anything close to how Burns did. His team played a much more open style and relied on Cujo to bail them out, which he did.

Bs. Potvin stood on his head for those two seasons. When his play went down, so did the boys. Was Cujo solid? You bet, but more often than not the Leafs were outscoring their problems during the Sundin years, and guess who led the charge?

I became a die hard Leafer in the days of Bester. The 93 Detroit series was one of the most intense series of my childhood as I grew up near the Windsor Detroit border. I remember it well.
I also remember the Senator series, the battles with the Devils, the Islanders series.

 

[MajorityRules*]

Gilmour was my favourite Leaf back in 92/93 during that magical run. I was in my early 20's (so don't call me too young to remember if you disagree with me). I really enjoyed watching him play back then. It was the closest I can remember the Leafs coming to having a legit star worthy of an end year trophy. A lot of the great things people are remembering him for are absolutely true.

When he put the C on his sweater and Clark was traded, that's where the good times ended for me. I lost a ton of respect for Gilmour after that. His play on the ice became more one of puck hog and arrogance. I remember commenting to my then girlfriend (we weren't married yet) that he was trying to do everything on his own. Skating from behind his own net, taking the puck into the opposing teams zone, not liking what he saw, skating the puck back to his own zone to try again and subsequently losing the puck, while leaving his teammates hung out to dry because they were all still down in the other end. He didn't do that just once, he started making a habit of it. I became frustrated with Gilmour and it only got worse when he bailed (YES HE BAILED) on the team because they weren't a playoff team anymore. As someone else has mentioned in here, he didn't do the team any favours. If he was thinking of the team he would have come back the next year. No he wanted out of Toronto and to be honest, I was happy to see him go.

I eventually got over it and welcomed him back with open arms when Quinn traded for him. It was a damn shame the freak accident that ended his career as we were headed into the playoffs. Didn't even get a game in. In the end though, I'd have to say Sundin earned my respect a thousand times more than Gilmour ever did. Sundin didn't want to quit on "his" team so declined to waive his NTC. Gilmour would have torn his up before the team ever came asking him to waive it, not because he would want to help but because he'd be the first to bail when things didn't look good.

To answer the OP's question, Gilmour quit on Toronto.

 

[firstemperor]

I respect Sundin more but to be blunt, he tarnished his legacy here. I'm fine with him not waiving his NTC, but the fact he was willing to come back and sign with the Canucks was the big deal breaker. So why not waive it in the first place? That was the straw that broke the camels back.

No doubt Sundin was the better player and talent. I wouldn't even argue Gilmours short-lived peak was better than Sundin's own. People forget how great Sundin really was in his prime. You couldn't move him down low. Watching our current team consistently losing board battles would have been an aberration back in the days of Sundin.

 

[nsleaf]

Gilmour was my favourite Leaf back in 92/93 during that magical run. I was in my early 20's (so don't call me too young to remember if you disagree with me). I really enjoyed watching him play back then. It was the closest I can remember the Leafs coming to having a legit star worthy of an end year trophy. A lot of the great things people are remembering him for are absolutely true.

When he put the C on his sweater and Clark was traded, that's where the good times ended for me. I lost a ton of respect for Gilmour after that. His play on the ice became more one of puck hog and arrogance. I remember commenting to my then girlfriend (we weren't married yet) that he was trying to do everything on his own. Skating from behind his own net, taking the puck into the opposing teams zone, not liking what he saw, skating the puck back to his own zone to try again and subsequently losing the puck, while leaving his teammates hung out to dry because they were all still down in the other end. He didn't do that just once, he started making a habit of it. I became frustrated with Gilmour and it only got worse when he bailed (YES HE BAILED) on the team because they weren't a playoff team anymore. As someone else has mentioned in here, he didn't do the team any favours. If he was thinking of the team he would have come back the next year. No he wanted out of Toronto and to be honest, I was happy to see him go. I eventually got over it and welcomed him back with open arms when Quinn traded for him. It was a damn shame the freak accident that ended his career as we were headed into the playoffs. Didn't even get a game in. In the end though, I'd have to say Sundin earned my respect a thousand times more than Gilmour ever did. Sundin didn't want to quit on "his" team so declined to waive his NTC. Gilmour would have torn his up before the team ever came asking him to waive it, not because he would want to help but because he'd be the first to bail when things didn't look good.

To answer the OP's question, Gilmour quit on Toronto.

Sounds like another former captain as well, what was his name now????

 

[Deebo]

I respect Sundin more but to be blunt, he tarnished his legacy here. I'm fine with him not waiving his NTC, but the fact he was willing to come back and sign with the Canucks was the big deal breaker. So why not waive it in the first place? That was the straw that broke the camels back.

He wasn't even sure he wanted to play at all that season, he left a 2 year $20M contract on the table from Vancouver on July 1.

The straw that broke the camels back implies that he did a whole bunch of other things that contributed to a tarnished legacy and this was the final incident, what else did he do that tarnished his legacy in your eyes?

 

[ACC1224]

He wasn't even sure he wanted to play at all that season, he left a 2 year $20M contract on the table from Vancouver on July 1.

The straw that broke the camels back implies that he did a whole bunch of other things that contributed to a tarnished legacy and this was the final incident, what else did he do that tarnished his legacy in your eyes?

Even signing when he did was understandable. He shouldn't have had to Retire because the Leafs didn't want him.

 

[Deebo]

Even signing when he did was understandable. He shouldn't have had to Retire because the Leafs didn't want him.

Not signing a contract that would have guaranteed you $20M because he wasn't sure he was up for it speaks to his character IMO. Lots of people would have taken the money and worried about their desire to play later. If he signed and decided he wasn't up for it and retired, he would have counted against the Cancuks cap @ 10M for 2 years.

 

[ACC1224]

Not signing a contract that would have guaranteed you $20M because he wasn't sure he was up for it speaks to his character IMO. Lots of people would have taken the money and worried about their desire to play later. If he signed and decided he wasn't up for it and retired, he would have counted against the Cancuks cap @ 10M for 2 years.

Agreed. Always found it strange how his loyalty and integrity have been held against him.

 

[Deebo]

Agreed. Always found it strange how his loyalty and integrity have been held against him.

Probably by people who lack those attributes themselves.