Did Gilmour ask to be traded?

[BudMaster17]

I saw Dougie out with this hot black haired chick at a Spanish resturant, I farted as I walked by him. True story.

 

[King Mapes]

That's a cool story, interactif. Seems like a good guy

 

[hockeyfanz*]

The Toronto Maple Leafs franchise has always been built on two way play, a collective team mentality and healthy dose of goonery.

Even during the Original Six era when the team was largely a high flyer in a six team league, the Leafs basically never had a scoring leader, or very many Hart Trophy winners. While other Original Six teams lay claim to the greatest names in the game like Howe, Hull, Orr, Richard, Beliveau, our alumni nights show you we really didn't have those kinds of comparables.

The franchise and fanbase has always been lukewarm to elite talent and more happy to embrace the blue collar guys.

Why did they drive Frank Mahovlich out after all the personal and team success that he had in the 50s and 60s? Why was Wendel Clark held in such high esteem as a bright spot in the 80s while you hear so little about Vincent Damphousse?

Given this gooney Leafs Nation culture, I wouldn't be that surprised if people preferred a team full of Mike Browns to a team full of Patrick Kanes.

I do believe you have encapsulated the Leafs Nation mentality. Well done.

Give me the Kanes please. Everyday. I know you need both on a team but really the Brown part is interchangeable...the Kane part...not so much.

 

[cujoflutie]

didn't the leafs set a record in that 2002 series Sundin scored the all important tying goal for fewest goals in a 6 game series? And if memory serves me correctly, they beat their own record of the 1999 defeat of philly. I realize you can't simply magically transport a player from one era to another as much as we wanted to, you get the sense that gilmour in his prime would have done what he normally does and find a way to break through. Even his worst playoffs with the leafs he had 6 points in 7 games with a herniated disc.


As mentioned, mats refused to help the team by accepting a trade because 'he didnt want to join a team midway through the season' and yet did the same the next year.

Don't get me wrong, mats was a great player for us for years but if I were ever a GM and had the choice of taking the next Sundin over the next Gilmour, I'm taking the one who steps it up a notch when the games matter more.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Never said he was bad, just wasn't on the same tier as Gilmour was. As good as Sundin was he was never elite.

Gilmour and Clark were magic, those were my favorite Leaf teams ever.

Pretty funny that the 27th all time leading scorer in the NHL is not considered elite eh? Four points behind some guy name Guy Lafleur.....Too funny. You guys are hilarious.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Pretty funny that the 27th all time leading scorer in the NHL is not considered elite eh? Four points behind some guy name Guy Lafleur.....Too funny. You guys are hilarious.

Sundin is not on the same page as Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr Crosby etc etc. Those are elite players. Gilmour had two seasons where he played at that level. Sundin never did, he was a consistant PPG player who had an excellent career. The next tier from elite.

 

[Your old Jofa helmet]

Sundin was definitely elite for the Leafs with the supporting cast he had. When he had better linemates, he was the best player in the world. See team Sweden. Watch him in World Cup 96, he was on par with the best players, even better. Even without the superstars like in 2002 he was unreal. He destroyed Canada with lemieux, sakic and the rest with Nicklas Sundstrom and Ulf Dahlen as linemates.

 

[BlueStorm]

I remember an interview with Sullivan a yea or two later. He said they met at the airport late at night, each were getting off their old team's plane and getting on the new team's plane. Sullivan said as he and girl our passed each other, Doug briefly stopped and said enjoy your days playing in Toronto, there is no place like it. Obviously after two decades this is paraphrased as I cannot member the exact words but it was something I remembered after all of these years. Gilmour is my favourite leaf of all time so I was glad to hear he liked playing in TO.
I have never heard any credible sources claiming he wanted to leave Toronto. I have heard that toronto forced him out but who really knows?
I was glad he was able to play his last game as a leaf even if his career ended so sadly.

 

[613Leafer]

I'm a Leaf fan from Ottawa. We all loved Mats. You Toronto-born fans are crazy

Gilmour at his best was better than Sundin at his best. But Sundin was here much longer and was the definition of consistency. Great great player.

 

[cujoflutie]

There's also the unfortunate story of the leafs losing in the first round in 2003 and Sundin and CO saying "we'll just play in the world championships" and Domi ripping them a new one..... I can't see Gilmour ever saying that after being eliminated.

 

[BlueStorm]

Both were great players. Gilmour was significantly smaller than sundin so IMO his career was harder on him. If I had to pick one player as a 19 year old to play his career in Toronto I would pick dougie no question.

 

[Your old Jofa helmet]

There's also the unfortunate story of the leafs losing in the first round in 2003 and Sundin and CO saying "we'll just play in the world championships" and Domi ripping them a new one..... I can't see Gilmour ever saying that after being eliminated.

But he was quick to abandon the ship when the things got tough. Actions speak louder than words...

 

[Damisoph]

Mario Lemieux.

I know, he won the Hart and there is obviously no denying who was the better player. All I'm saying is that for that one year, with Mario only playing 60 games (or something like that), he was unbelievable. I was always a huge Sundin fan and maybe this is partly because he played in Toronto during the "dead puck" era, but Mats never came close to what Dougie achieved in that season.

 

[Damisoph]

Absolute bollocks

If you were around to watch Gilmour (Im assuming you were too young) you would know that in those first two seasons he was in Toronto he was as good a playmaker as Gretz was. He turned Andreychuk into a 50 goal scorer. He could completely change the tempo of the game with one shift. It was magic. He was that good.

He single handedly rebuilt the Leafs into a cup contender from a fringe scrape in the playoffs and get killed in the first round team.

It was almost a fairy tale how much the team turned around because of one guy.

Sundin was good as well, he had the longevity factor going for him, but he is just not on the same page as Gilmour was for me. He didn't single handedly lead the team. He was a good captain and the go to guy for years, but it was goaltending that won for us in the early 2000's.

Dave Andreychuk was a 50 goal scorer long before he got with Dougie. But yes, the chemistry those two had on the ice was indisputable.

For those too young to remember (or were still a gleam in your papa's eye) the 1992/93 playoff run, that team was special. There's a reason a VHS tape was made about that team, if you have a chance watch "The Passion Returns" on YouTube.

 

[Leaf4Life]

This is absolutely ridiculous. No matter how you want to spin it, we lost to the Kings, it sucks but we lost. Don't try to say otherwise because you like Gilmour. I love him too but what you're saying is absurd.

Sundin never carried the team on his BACK for deep playoff runs? Goodness gracious this fan base. What do you call 1998-1999 when the Leafs went to the Conference Finals against Buffalo?What about 2001-2002 when they played Carolina in the conference finals? He went as far as Gilmour went with the team and he didn't have Wendel Clark,Dave Anderchyuk, or Nikolai Borschevsky

Heh... I guess you were too young to watch Gilmour during those playoff runs? In 92/93 and 93/94 Gilmour played with more heart than Sundin ever did. Gilmour was also arguably the most complete player in the entire league at the time. Sundin was good but never at the same level. Sorry but I dont see how anyone could think otherwise.

PS. Sundin did nothing in the Carolina playoff run. Roberts carried that team.

 

[the squared circle]

I have to laugh at the people here who write asking why Gilmour is so loved, and that it could be because of Don Cherry, or because Mats is Swedish, etc.

It's because Gilmour fought tooth and nail in 92/93 when the Leafs teams were laughingstocks for the prior 20 years. He (and others) brought respect back to a dismal franchise and we fans were drooling after everything the Gilmour-led team did. The run in 92/93 was truly magic and as fun as the 99 and 02 runs were, they did not even come CLOSE to 93. Not even a sniff.

I don't mean to offend, seriously, but it has to come down to age around here. For the older posters, Gilmour will always have a special place in their heart. For those who didn't experience the runs in 93 and 94, you shouldn't post your pro-Sundin comments. I loved Sundin too, but as others have mentioned, Gimour >> Sundin, in their best years.

 

[rojac]

I have to laugh at the people here who write asking why Gilmour is so loved, and that it could be because of Don Cherry, or because Mats is Swedish, etc.

It's because Gilmour fought tooth and nail in 92/93 when the Leafs teams were laughingstocks for the prior 20 years. He (and others) brought respect back to a dismal franchise and we fans were drooling after everything the Gilmour-led team did. The run in 92/93 was truly magic and as fun as the 99 and 02 runs were, they did not even come CLOSE to 93. Not even a sniff.

I don't mean to offend, seriously, but it has to come down to age around here. For the older posters, Gilmour will always have a special place in their heart. For those who didn't experience the runs in 93 and 94, you shouldn't post your pro-Sundin comments. I loved Sundin too, but as others have mentioned, Gimour >> Sundin, in their best years.

I'll agree that Gilmour shone brightly for two years and those two years probably outshone Sundin's best. But Sundin was consistently very good throughout his time in Toronto, which was a heck of a lot longer than Gilmour's.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

Absolute bollocks

If you were around to watch Gilmour (Im assuming you were too young) you would know that in those first two seasons he was in Toronto he was as good a playmaker as Gretz was. He turned Andreychuk into a 50 goal scorer. He could completely change the tempo of the game with one shift. It was magic. He was that good.

He single handedly rebuilt the Leafs into a cup contender from a fringe scrape in the playoffs and get killed in the first round team.

It was almost a fairy tale how much the team turned around because of one guy.

Sundin was good as well, he had the longevity factor going for him, but he is just not on the same page as Gilmour was for me. He didn't single handedly lead the team. He was a good captain and the go to guy for years, but it was goaltending that won for us in the early 2000's.

QFT. There are way too many people here who never even saw Gilmour play making idiotic comments about Sundin. Sorry, Sundin isn't even in the same area code as Gilmour. The guy pretty much single-handedly revived the Leafs as a franchise. Same as Fletcher revived the team off the ice. I've never seen anyone in any sport give so much every single night, like Gilmour did in 92, 92-93, and 93-94. Something happened after the loss in 94, though. I don't know if it was the Clark trade for Sundin, or the lockout that caused the 94-95 season to be delayed into January of 95. But something happened during that extended break and Gilmour was never the same player again.

Neither was the team, which started to coast downhill. I still think the best move for the Leafs at that time was keeping Clark and moving heaven and earth to sign Bernie Nicholls that summer as the second centre. Sundin was a good move, but the Leafs gave up too much with shipping off Clark and Lefebvre. Gutted the team by ditching Clark's heart and lost a ton of their ability on the blue line without Lefebvre.

 

[Stephen]

I have to laugh at the people here who write asking why Gilmour is so loved, and that it could be because of Don Cherry, or because Mats is Swedish, etc.

It's because Gilmour fought tooth and nail in 92/93 when the Leafs teams were laughingstocks for the prior 20 years. He (and others) brought respect back to a dismal franchise and we fans were drooling after everything the Gilmour-led team did. The run in 92/93 was truly magic and as fun as the 99 and 02 runs were, they did not even come CLOSE to 93. Not even a sniff.

I don't mean to offend, seriously, but it has to come down to age around here. For the older posters, Gilmour will always have a special place in their heart. For those who didn't experience the runs in 93 and 94, you shouldn't post your pro-Sundin comments. I loved Sundin too, but as others have mentioned, Gimour >> Sundin, in their best years.

I was 10 and 11 when 1993 and 1994 happened, and I do remember the excitement we all felt as kids with Gilmour, Clark and Potvin leading the charge with Burns behind the bench. It's the reason I fell in love with hockey in the first place, so as a Leaf fan, those were important events...

That said, I find it incredible sad and hilarious that all of our modern glory is derived from a couple of conference finals appearances, which good teams get to and get past on a regular basis.

The Philadelphia Flyers are a bit of an old losing club too, having not won since the mid 70s. Even then, they've made it to the finals in 1976, 1980, 1985, 1987, 1997, 2010, and I doubt they look on any of those runs with the reverence some of us do for 1993...

 

[Stephen]

QFT. There are way too many people here who never even saw Gilmour play making idiotic comments about Sundin. Sorry, Sundin isn't even in the same area code as Gilmour. The guy pretty much single-handedly revived the Leafs as a franchise. Same as Fletcher revived the team off the ice. I've never seen anyone in any sport give so much every single night, like Gilmour did in 92, 92-93, and 93-94. Something happened after the loss in 94, though. I don't know if it was the Clark trade for Sundin, or the lockout that caused the 94-95 season to be delayed into January of 95. But something happened during that extended break and Gilmour was never the same player again.

Neither was the team, which started to coast downhill. I still think the best move for the Leafs at that time was keeping Clark and moving heaven and earth to sign Bernie Nicholls that summer as the second centre. Sundin was a good move, but the Leafs gave up too much with shipping off Clark and Lefebvre. Gutted the team by ditching Clark's heart and lost a ton of their ability on the blue line without Lefebvre.

The Leafs were an old fossil of a team after the lockout, much like the Vancouver Canucks and Calgary Flames are today. If they hadn't made the Sundin trade, they wouldn't have had much of a future going into the late 90s. That group was never going to come close to competing with New Jersey, Detroit and Colorado for cups over the next few years...

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

I have to laugh at the people here who write asking why Gilmour is so loved, and that it could be because of Don Cherry, or because Mats is Swedish, etc.

It's because Gilmour fought tooth and nail in 92/93 when the Leafs teams were laughingstocks for the prior 20 years. He (and others) brought respect back to a dismal franchise and we fans were drooling after everything the Gilmour-led team did. The run in 92/93 was truly magic and as fun as the 99 and 02 runs were, they did not even come CLOSE to 93. Not even a sniff.

I don't mean to offend, seriously, but it has to come down to age around here. For the older posters, Gilmour will always have a special place in their heart. For those who didn't experience the runs in 93 and 94, you shouldn't post your pro-Sundin comments. I loved Sundin too, but as others have mentioned, Gimour >> Sundin, in their best years.

Yeah, dead on. It was like the whole country got behind that 93 run. Never seen anything like it with the Leafs before. The 99 and 02 runs had nothing even close to the same buzz. Gilmour did incredible things from 92-94. Yeah, Sundin stuck around a long time, but Gilmour made a far bigger impact on the franchise in his more limited years in Toronto. It's not even close. Anyone who grew up with this pathetic franchise in the 70s and 80s will tell you how much Gilmour's arrival and amazing play meant to us back then.

I've never been a big hero worshipper with sports stars, even as a kid. But I've got a signed Gilmour photo in my office and just love the guy. Never seen anyone put it all out there like he did in 92-94. I know kids here think this is all BS, made up by Cherry, or whatever, but it's the truth. Gilmour is worthy of all the praise in the world for his accomplishments back then, which revived the entire fan base.

I know this is the same old sour grapes, but we got screwed by Gretzky and Fraser out of a Stanley Cup. That 92-93 team was a team of destiny if ever there was one.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

The Leafs were an old fossil of a team after the lockout, much like the Vancouver Canucks and Calgary Flames are today. If they hadn't made the Sundin trade, they wouldn't have had much of a future going into the late 90s. That group was never going to come close to competing with New Jersey, Detroit and Colorado for cups over the next few years...

That's complete and utter ********. They were older, but still had some good youth, Potvin was young, and they could have competed with some FA signings. Clark was freaking 27 when he was traded in 94. An old 27, sure, but he had a lot left in him, especially if he'd stayed in Toronto. Lefebvre was only 26. Gilmour was 30. Andreychuk was 30. Gartner was up there, but he still had a couple of 30 goal seasons left. This wasn't an ancient team. It was in its prime and could have competed for another two-three years if they'd solved the second-line centre problem without a big trade. There was a UFA option available. Fletcher didn't think it would make enough of a difference.

Instead, Fletcher blew up the team after the loss to Vancouver in 94. Huge mistake. It led to almost a decade of crap, Burns getting canned, Gilmour shipped out, Fletcher losing his job, etc. I'm not saying this would've been a sure Cup winner, but it would have been a better team in the short run if Fletcher had stayed the course for at least one more year.

The other thing from 93 and 94 that needs to be considered is the Western Conference issue. The Leafs were stuck playing the most grueling schedule in the playoffs, and were worn down both years by the conference finals. And had to play LA in 93 and Vancouver in 94. That was insane. Without that travel problem, I'd lay good money that the Leafs get through the conference finals both years.

 

[The Apologist]

Absolute bollocks

If you were around to watch Gilmour (Im assuming you were too young) you would know that in those first two seasons he was in Toronto he was as good a playmaker as Gretz was. He turned Andreychuk into a 50 goal scorer. He could completely change the tempo of the game with one shift. It was magic. He was that good.

He single handedly rebuilt the Leafs into a cup contender from a fringe scrape in the playoffs and get killed in the first round team.

It was almost a fairy tale how much the team turned around because of one guy.

Sundin was good as well, he had the longevity factor going for him, but he is just not on the same page as Gilmour was for me. He didn't single handedly lead the team. He was a good captain and the go to guy for years, but it was goaltending that won for us in the early 2000's.

See that's just it, those two years. And goaltending was just as responsible in 93 as it was in 99.

And I was around to enjoy it.

 

[DeathToAllButMetal]

I was 10 and 11 when 1993 and 1994 happened, and I do remember the excitement we all felt as kids with Gilmour, Clark and Potvin leading the charge with Burns behind the bench. It's the reason I fell in love with hockey in the first place, so as a Leaf fan, those were important events...

That said, I find it incredible sad and hilarious that all of our modern glory is derived from a couple of conference finals appearances, which good teams get to and get past on a regular basis.

The Philadelphia Flyers are a bit of an old losing club too, having not won since the mid 70s. Even then, they've made it to the finals in 1976, 1980, 1985, 1987, 1997, 2010, and I doubt they look on any of those runs with the reverence some of us do for 1993...

Totally agree with all that. But, again, you're way too young to have experienced the horrors of the 70s and 80s with Ballard. What happened in 93 and 94 pretty much saved the Leafs. That's why those two conference final appearances have resonated so much for so long. That, and how the Gretzky/Fraser thing pretty much cemented in our minds how much we were shafted.

 

[The Apologist]

QFT. There are way too many people here who never even saw Gilmour play making idiotic comments about Sundin. Sorry, Sundin isn't even in the same area code as Gilmour. The guy pretty much single-handedly revived the Leafs as a franchise. Same as Fletcher revived the team off the ice. I've never seen anyone in any sport give so much every single night, like Gilmour did in 92, 92-93, and 93-94. Something happened after the loss in 94, though. I don't know if it was the Clark trade for Sundin, or the lockout that caused the 94-95 season to be delayed into January of 95. But something happened during that extended break and Gilmour was never the same player again.

Neither was the team, which started to coast downhill. I still think the best move for the Leafs at that time was keeping Clark and moving heaven and earth to sign Bernie Nicholls that summer as the second centre. Sundin was a good move, but the Leafs gave up too much with shipping off Clark and Lefebvre. Gutted the team by ditching Clark's heart and lost a ton of their ability on the blue line without Lefebvre.

Seems like there are more 'idiotic' people on here making derogatory comments about Sundin than the other way around.

Gilmour was awesome for two seasons, Mats carried this team for 13 years.

Anybody hating on either should probably put the blue and white jersey down and go to bed.