Did Gilmour ask to be traded?

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Yes but I was speaking strictly from a skill standpoint...I love Phil but Mats brought much more to the table. Much much more. But yes Kessel gets ridden unfairly, IMO. He is a star player with extraordinary skills. Absolutely.

You're absolutely correct. Different style players completely.

The one funny thing about the two is the fact that Sundin never had a top flight winger, in their prime, to play with him. And Phil hasn't had a true #1 centreman to play with him . Timing is everything I suppose. Those two would've made beautiful music together.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

This, for the young people in the crowd reading, was a typical view of the Leafs captain from 98-04. When people didn't have a large amount to complain about, they would criticize the Maple Leaf captain for not having as much heart (hart) as the two who proceeded him. It seemed silly then, it seems even worse now. You wouldn't think that the franchise leader in points, former all time overtime goals leader in NHL history, and a hockey hall of famer, would be so heavily criticized by I'd say 70% of the fanbase, but it happened kids.

Sundin was no Dougie. Not even comparable. No matter how you try and spin it.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

You're absolutely correct. Different style players completely.

The one funny thing about the two is the fact that Sundin never had a top flight winger, in their prime, to play with him. And Phil hasn't had a true #1 centreman to play with him . Timing is everything I suppose. Those two would've made beautiful music together.

Sundin never had a top flight winger? Did he not play on the same team as Gilmour, Andreychuk, Gartner, Ridley, Muller, Clark (who came back in 95/96), Sullivan, Thomas, Berezin, Mogilny, Roberts, Tucker...the list goes on and on.... ?

 

[FrozenJagrt]

How many on that list were in their prime?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

To the older Leafs fans

heard a curious story the other day, that Gilmour asked for a trade to the Devils to save Cliff's job....anybody else heard anything like that or somewhat similar?

My recollection was he was willing to accept a trade to help the Leafs rebuild. Leafs were sputtering before and after Burns was fired, he knew the team wasn't going to contend and Cliff and Doug had a gentleman's agreement to make it happen.

We got 3 pretty good players back, remember it like yesterday, Sullivan, Smith, and Macauley.

Remember driving to Ottawa just to see Alyn play for Kilrea. He was the best player in the OHL that year.

 

[ShLou Foot]

Sundin never had a top flight winger? Did he not play on the same team as Gilmour, Andreychuk, Gartner, Ridley, Muller, Clark (who came back in 95/96), Sullivan, Thomas, Berezin, Mogilny, Roberts, Tucker...the list goes on and on.... ?

Vaive, it's all falling on deaf ears, remember we're too OLD and their YOUNG. We forget half of the things we remember, and they have minds like steel traps .
And as far as the LA debacle if you're too young to remember exactly how it went down then......shhhhhh, because your ignorance is deafening.
Mike Ridley.....I'm surprised you snuck that one in there.
I did however read a bit about Burns and how he left the organization, so I wonder if that had an hand in Killer leaving.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Sundin never had a top flight winger? Did he not play on the same team as Gilmour, Andreychuk, Gartner, Ridley, Muller, Clark (who came back in 95/96), Sullivan, Thomas, Berezin, Mogilny, Roberts, Tucker...the list goes on and on.... ?

1. Led the team in scoring each year he played Gilmour\Clark\Muller\Andreychuk\Gartner

2. Which one of Steve Sullivan, Steve Thomas, Sergei Berezin, Alexander Mogilny, Gary Roberts or Darcy Tucker was an elite winger in their prime while they played with Mats Sundin?

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that Gilmour was the first captain in ages to virtually carry the team on his back to the cup finals (if it wasn't for getting robbed against LA). Sundin never did that.

But I guess you were "too young" to appreciate what he did for the team.

Bravo! Could not agree more! Those back to back final four years were just amazing thanks to 93 and 17 (for the first one)

 

[Leafidelity]

Agreed, never understood celebrating the quitter and vilifying the stronger character.

Please. Mr "I dont want to join a team halfway through a season", Mats Sundin.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Revisionist history. Gilmour didn't do a thing for the Leafs while he was captain. His playoff scoring accolades were stellar, certainly. And for a two year period, he helped carry the Leafs in a huge way at both ends of the ice, no doubt. But he had a much greater supporting cast. Mats had the team on his back for a decade, he won just as much as Gilmour and Clark did as captains. So why are those two saints while Mats is treated like dirt? Sundin gave everything he had to this team for twice as long, he was nothing but a class act. Gilmour was good. He was also overrated and maybe Koho is on to something, Grapes may have had a hand in that by calling Killer the best in the world when he clearly was not.

Absolute bollocks

If you were around to watch Gilmour (Im assuming you were too young) you would know that in those first two seasons he was in Toronto he was as good a playmaker as Gretz was. He turned Andreychuk into a 50 goal scorer. He could completely change the tempo of the game with one shift. It was magic. He was that good.

He single handedly rebuilt the Leafs into a cup contender from a fringe scrape in the playoffs and get killed in the first round team.

It was almost a fairy tale how much the team turned around because of one guy.

Sundin was good as well, he had the longevity factor going for him, but he is just not on the same page as Gilmour was for me. He didn't single handedly lead the team. He was a good captain and the go to guy for years, but it was goaltending that won for us in the early 2000's.

 

[Stephen]

There are actually a ton of similarities.

The fanbase:
- criticizes the individual for lack of physical play
- value lesser skilled players more for reasons that are beyond rational thought
- under-appreciates their accomplishments
- are not as fond of them because they are not canadian
- dislike the individual's lack of vocalization
- underestimate the individual's leadership abilities

The parallels are evident.

The Toronto Maple Leafs franchise has always been built on two way play, a collective team mentality and healthy dose of goonery.

Even during the Original Six era when the team was largely a high flyer in a six team league, the Leafs basically never had a scoring leader, or very many Hart Trophy winners. While other Original Six teams lay claim to the greatest names in the game like Howe, Hull, Orr, Richard, Beliveau, our alumni nights show you we really didn't have those kinds of comparables.

The franchise and fanbase has always been lukewarm to elite talent and more happy to embrace the blue collar guys.

Why did they drive Frank Mahovlich out after all the personal and team success that he had in the 50s and 60s? Why was Wendel Clark held in such high esteem as a bright spot in the 80s while you hear so little about Vincent Damphousse?

Given this gooney Leafs Nation culture, I wouldn't be that surprised if people preferred a team full of Mike Browns to a team full of Patrick Kanes.

 

[Stephen]

Absolute bollocks

If you were around to watch Gilmour (Im assuming you were too young) you would know that in those first two seasons he was in Toronto he was as good a playmaker as Gretz was. He turned Andreychuk into a 50 goal scorer. He could completely change the tempo of the game with one shift. It was magic. He was that good.

He single handedly rebuilt the Leafs into a cup contender from a fringe scrape in the playoffs and get killed in the first round team.

It was almost a fairy tale how much the team turned around because of one guy.

Sundin was good as well, he had the longevity factor going for him, but he is just not on the same page as Gilmour was for me. He didn't single handedly lead the team. He was a good captain and the go to guy for years, but it was goaltending that won for us in the early 2000's.

Gilmour was already in decline by the time they put the C on his sweater. When 1994-95 rolled around he was just a shell of the player he had been for those two years.

 

[R McD]

Man there is a lot of revisionist history going on here. At any rate, its hard to criticize St. Gilmour around these parts. I will say Dougie did significantly slow down in his last 3 seasons. You just can't sustain that incredible level of skill and effort he played at for that long, plus he was getting older too. As for Sundin, give me a break, that guy carried the Leafs team so many times, I'd KILL to a guy of his ability on this team right now. All those ol' BS criticisms of Sundin refuse to die out it seems. My only complaint was that it seemed when Sundin was in healthy and in the line up, everyone took a "oh Mats is back, time to ease up boys" attitude, as if he would do all the heavy lifting. Case in point was the entire change in attitude the 2001-2002 playoff leaf squad had once he came back, all that depth seem to evaporate. Still as amazing as Sundin was good, he still never potted 35 points in 21 playoff games.

 

[BudMaster17]

Sundin was no Dougie. Not even comparable. No matter how you try and spin it.

Dougie was no Sundin either. Look it up Stats don't lie.

 

[Stephen]

Sundin was no Dougie. Not even comparable. No matter how you try and spin it.

Sundin was a better choice as a franchise player. He gave us over a dozen years of the same consistent high end, zero maintenance performance hockey year after year, which is ample time for a lot of organizations to put together a winner.

Gilmour was a shooting star who shot to the top and then came back to earth as quickly as it happened. A Leafs team built around him didn't have much of a shelf life, and he had no qualms about walking out when the going got rough.

 

[King Mapes]

Thing is, Mats never had the peak Dougie did but every year you knew exactly what he'd do and that's consistent season after season and rarely hurt. The consistency was huge.

Imagine Mats and Kessel together

 

[ACC1224]

Absolute bollocks

If you were around to watch Gilmour (Im assuming you were too young) you would know that in those first two seasons he was in Toronto he was as good a playmaker as Gretz was. He turned Andreychuk into a 50 goal scorer. He could completely change the tempo of the game with one shift. It was magic. He was that good.

He single handedly rebuilt the Leafs into a cup contender from a fringe scrape in the playoffs and get killed in the first round team.

It was almost a fairy tale how much the team turned around because of one guy.

Sundin was good as well, he had the longevity factor going for him, but he is just not on the same page as Gilmour was for me. He didn't single handedly lead the team. He was a good captain and the go to guy for years, but it was goaltending that won for us in the early 2000's.

Gilmour was fantastic no doubt but Andreychuk was a great goal scorer his entire career.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Dougie was no Sundin either. Look it up Stats don't lie.

Ok Ill do as you suggested sir, lets pick two of the best years from either player

Gilmour

1992-93 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 83 32 95 127
1993-94 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 83 27 84 111

Sundin

1992-93 Quebec Nordiques NHL 80 47 67 114
1996-97 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 41 53 94



Gilmours last years which no doubt did tail off as pointed out above, he was still a PPG player, which is what Mats was as well.



Im constantly reading about elite and second tier players on this board. In my mind, those two years for Gilmour were elite, up there with Gretz and Lemeiux (comparable to Crosby today) and Sundin was a steady second tier player throughout his career. Which is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Gilmour was fantastic no doubt but Andreychuk was a great goal scorer his entire career.

Two seasons over 40 in Buffalo, and only by one (41)


Gilmour kicked him up like Oates did for Hull.

 

[ACC1224]

Two seasons over 40 in Buffalo, and only by one (41)


Gilmour kicked him up like Oates did for Hull.

Yes, they did have one good season.

 

[BudMaster17]

Ok Ill do as you suggested sir, lets pick two of the best years from either player

Gilmour

1992-93 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 83 32 95 127
1993-94 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 83 27 84 111

Sundin

1992-93 Quebec Nordiques NHL 80 47 67 114
1996-97 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 41 53 94



Gilmours last years which no doubt did tail off as pointed out above, he was still a PPG player, which is what Mats was as well.



Im constantly reading about elite and second tier players on this board. In my mind, those two years for Gilmour were elite, up there with Gretz and Lemeiux (comparable to Crosby today) and Sundin was a steady second tier player throughout his career. Which is nothing to sneeze at.

Dougie had two amazing years. He also played with the all mighty Clark for those years. Sundin had 13 years of ppg including the playoffs. Scored 30+ goals 10 times dude is a Hall of Famer and he had Hoglund on his line.... 2nd tier????

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I met Doug Gilmour in 94 during the strike season, have to tell you guys he is the real deal, a very nice man, I was at a bar and he came in with people he knew from the Keg. He ended up paying for everyone, even people he didn't know in the lounge we at. One European guy probably on vacation asked who was that guy who bought drinks for the bar rather astoundingly? I laughed and said where are you from, he said Germany. I said imagine if Boris Becker bought you drinks and mulitply it by 100x, that's how big this guy is in Toronto.

 

[BudMaster17]

I met Doug Gilmour in 94 during the strike season, have to tell you guys he is the real deal, a very nice man, I was at a bar and he came in with people he knew from the Keg. He ended up paying for everyone, even people he didn't know in the lounge we at. One European guy probably on vacation asked who was that guy who bought drinks for the bar rather astoundingly? I laughed and said where are you from, he said Germany. I said imagine if Boris Becker bought you drinks and mulitply it by 100x, that's how big this guy is in Toronto.

....Gilmour bought you a drink?

 

[Deuce Awesome]

Dougie had two amazing years. He also played with the all mighty Clark for those years. Sundin had 13 years of ppg including the playoffs. Scored 30+ goals 10 times dude is a Hall of Famer and he had Hoglund on his line.... 2nd tier????

Never said he was bad, just wasn't on the same tier as Gilmour was. As good as Sundin was he was never elite.

Gilmour and Clark were magic, those were my favorite Leaf teams ever.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

....Gilmour bought you a drink?

Not a drink, but I was at the bar as the Bartender when I was a lot younger, he was dating a girl at the Keg near by and came in for last call. He was real cool, gave me his credit card and said, any of the Keg people coming in, make sure it was on this tab, then he looked around the lounge and said if those guys want a drink too, put it on my tab too. I said sure Dougie, he came in one more time after that and we chatted briefly about hockey, he liked my caesars. Real down to earth guy. Got nothing but positive things to about him from meeting him.