Did Gilmour ask to be traded?

[donkeyy0]

Roberts was the reason for the 2002 run iirc, as Mats was out. I'm a big Mats fan, just pointing it out. Though in 2002 he scored what could have been one of the biggest goals for the Leafs since '67. Game 6, down 1-0 in the dying seconds (21 left I think). Too bad we lost in overtime.

I still remember the call "don't go anywhere!!! The Maple Leafs aren't!!!"

I never jumped so high

Most clutch player in history is a massive stretch.

Not gonna lie, Roberts was my hero that season. Going into the first round of 02 thought we had no chance without mats, i was proven wrong.

Mats was ppg in the 99 playoffs too. Which they got to the conference finals in (had to be... 17gp)

 

[hockeyfanz*]

I've heard mention of this quite a few times over the years. I was too young to remember the details of his trade, but I have always lived under the impression that he wanted to leave. And like rojac, I can see the hilarity in that given the way Gilmour is treated versus how Sundin is treated. Frankly, I love Dougie but see absolutely no reason for the borderline cult following he has with Leafs nation.

Agreed..Gilmour was a great player but this town treats him like he was Gretzky...lets not forget that the Leafs won absolutely nothing special with Gilmour. He took the Leafs no further than previous captains post 67 nor captains since him. LOL at people who believe that he led a talent starved team to the Conf finals. Coached by the best coach in modern Leaf era, who also won 3 Jack Adams trophies....Backstopped by excellent goaltending.....and fantastic defense. Tough team...who could score and defend. Should have won the Cup IMO...had it not been for arguably the greatest player to ever lace up skates. Dougie deserves credit for sure for his years in Toronto but the cult following is somewhat humorous. Imagine what an Yzerman, Messier or Sakic would have been in this town. Bigger than Christ.

Also, I thought it was known that Dougie asked to be traded. I heard it back then and I continued to hear thereafter. I just assumed it was true...

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs were a sinking ship in 1996-97 and the captain did not want to go down with it.

The Leafs were a tired veteran team in 1995-96, losing in the first round against St. Louis. That season, they brought back Wendel Clark and Mathieu Schneider in for Kenny Jonsson, the Luongo pick, and a couple of other bodies, but also started trimming salary by shipping out Andreychuk. Over the next few months they dumped Murphy, Gartner, Gagner and Muller away.

Doug Gilmour was an impending free agent after the 1997-98 season, and he wanted to go to a winning club. Simple as that. If he was really helping out the Leafs, he probably should have come back in the summer of 1998, but he obviously had no intention on doing so.

 

[King Mapes]

Not gonna lie, Roberts was my hero that season. Going into the first round of 02 thought we had no chance without mats, i was proven wrong.

Mats was ppg in the 99 playoffs too. Which they got to the conference finals in (had to be... 17gp)

Ya they lost to the Sabres in 5 games. Faced Hasek in his prime, enough said. He won them that series and won like 4 Vezinas in a 5 year stretch during that time.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

This is absolutely ridiculous. No matter how you want to spin it, we lost to the Kings, it sucks but we lost. Don't try to say otherwise because you like Gilmour. I love him too but what you're saying is absurd.

Sundin never carried the team on his BACK for deep playoff runs? Goodness gracious this fan base. What do you call 1998-1999 when the Leafs went to the Conference Finals against Buffalo?What about 2001-2002 when they played Carolina in the conference finals? He went as far as Gilmour went with the team and he didn't have Wendel Clark,Dave Anderchyuk, or Nikolai Borschevsky

don't include the 2002 run Mats was out for most of that. That was Cujo, Roberts, Hoglund

 

[Derek Synak]

don't include the 2002 run Mats was out for most of that. That was Cujo, Roberts, Hoglund

And Alyn McCauley, who filled in admirably on that line while Sundin was out.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that Gilmour was the first captain in ages to virtually carry the team on his back to the cup finals (if it wasn't for getting robbed against LA). Sundin never did that.

But I guess you were "too young" to appreciate what he did for the team.

Revisionist history. Gilmour didn't do a thing for the Leafs while he was captain. His playoff scoring accolades were stellar, certainly. And for a two year period, he helped carry the Leafs in a huge way at both ends of the ice, no doubt. But he had a much greater supporting cast. Mats had the team on his back for a decade, he won just as much as Gilmour and Clark did as captains. So why are those two saints while Mats is treated like dirt? Sundin gave everything he had to this team for twice as long, he was nothing but a class act. Gilmour was good. He was also overrated and maybe Koho is on to something, Grapes may have had a hand in that by calling Killer the best in the world when he clearly was not.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that Gilmour was the first captain in ages to virtually carry the team on his back to the cup finals (if it wasn't for getting robbed against LA). Sundin never did that.

But I guess you were "too young" to appreciate what he did for the team.

Agreed. Can't stand it when fans that only watched Sundin "growing up" treat him like the end all/be all Leaf captain. The mere fact that Sundin wanted to "stay" set back the "rebuild/retool" half a decade....

If my memory serves me right - Dougie agreed to the trade to save Cliff's job.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

Gilmour played at the highest level I've ever seen a Leaf play, in 1992-93 and 93-94. Sundin was a great player in his own right but no one ever mistook him for the best player in the league. A very good argument can be made that Gilmour was the best player in the NHL that year, 1992-93.

This.

 

[ACC1224]

I seem to recall hearing that he desperately wanted out of Toronto because of the new cheaper direction the Leafs were going in.

I've got to admit that I probably want to believe the Gilmour wanting out story simply because it means that one can say that Leaf fans worship the captain who wanted out (Gilmour) while villifying the captain who wanted to stay (Sundin).

Agreed, never understood celebrating the quitter and vilifying the stronger character.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

This is absolutely ridiculous. No matter how you want to spin it, we lost to the Kings, it sucks but we lost. Don't try to say otherwise because you like Gilmour. I love him too but what you're saying is absurd.

Sundin never carried the team on his BACK for deep playoff runs? Goodness gracious this fan base. What do you call 1998-1999 when the Leafs went to the Conference Finals against Buffalo?What about 2001-2002 when they played Carolina in the conference finals? He went as far as Gilmour went with the team and he didn't have Wendel Clark,Dave Anderchyuk, or Nikolai Borschevsky

I remember Sundin being hurt with a "finger" injury and disapearing in the playoffs until the third round vs. Carolina...the fan base was extremely disappointed in Sundin because guys were playing hurt. Cujo, Mogilny and Roberts were leading the team back then...

Along with Tucker... Mogilny/Roberts were playing with god damn floating bones.... banged up to all hell and here's Sundin sitting out til the Carolina series? Give me a break. Mogilny even made a "contraversial" comment regarding Sundin's commitment during that playoff run.

If you wanna talk the truth - Dougie carried the team in the playoffs. He played hurt and didn't miss a beat. The team, the fanbase - relied on Gilmour's CLUTCH - not Clark's... not Andreychuck's... and especially not Borchevsky's (although he did pot the OT winner vs Detroit to win the series)...

That's the difference... when the game was on the line - Dougie would be the go to guy and come through.... In that Sundin era.... it was the likes of Roberts/Mogilny and Sundin if he felt like it... at times it appeared as Sundin was just going through the motions... when he wanted to turn it on... HE SURE DID.... but there were times where Sundin was nowhere to be found.

 

[cujoflutie]

just addressing some random points which have been brought up in this thread;

-I like Sundin a lot but you really can't credit him for 2002; He left the islanders series while we were up 2-1 (we won in 7), didnt play in the sens series which we also won in 7, returned while we were up 1-0 against the canes and we lost in 6. So if you do want to play spin doctor, They won the 2 series without Sundin playing the deciding game and lost the 1 where he did.
while sundin wasn't a playoff choker, seemed just about every playoff series the leafs lost, the opposition found a way to contain him. Don't get me wrong, he was great in some of the ones we won but the elite players all have stories of finding ways to come through in the clutch while the less-than-elite ones have stories of getting shut down (for instance the Sedin twins now)

Now in Gilmours case, his only bad playoff was 1997 in which the devils scored 5 goals in 5 games and Richter was unreal. He was one of the 3 most valuable players in the Flames cup run along with Vernon and Macinnis. His first ever playoff he had 11 points in 11 games and his last playoff he had 10 points in 12 games for the 8th seed. He finished his career with a higher PPG average in the playoffs than in the regular season. Gilmour went to the conference finals 5 times to Sundin's 2 including a trip to the finals and victory.


re: most dominant player. Gilmour won the selke in one of the most dominating fashions. He would have won the hart if not for Mario's magical season that year. So yeah he finished 2nd to a guy who potted 160 points in 60 games. Even at his best I don't believe Sundin was ever nominated for any major awards.


Now as for leaving; it's been well documented that Cliff Fletcher and Doug Gilmour were great friends and so it doesn't seem out of character for Gilmour to accept a trade to help Cliff save his job. But there's been no sources for him being unhappy with the leafs, he did lobby hard to sign here when he eventually went to the habs and of course he identified this as his home and seems to identify with the leafs more than any of the other clubs he played for including the one he won the cup with.

 

[rojac]

I remember Sundin being hurt with a "finger" injury and disapearing in the playoffs until the third round vs. Carolina...the fan base was extremely disappointed in Sundin because guys were playing hurt. Cujo, Mogilny and Roberts were leading the team back then...

Along with Tucker... Mogilny/Roberts were playing with god damn floating bones.... banged up to all hell and here's Sundin sitting out til the Carolina series? Give me a break. Mogilny even made a "contraversial" comment regarding Sundin's commitment during that playoff run.

If you wanna talk the truth - Dougie carried the team in the playoffs. He played hurt and didn't miss a beat. The team, the fanbase - relied on Gilmour's CLUTCH - not Clark's... not Andreychuck's... and especially not Borchevsky's (although he did pot the OT winner vs Detroit to win the series)...

That's the difference... when the game was on the line - Dougie would be the go to guy and come through.... In that Sundin era.... it was the likes of Roberts/Mogilny and Sundin if he felt like it... at times it appeared as Sundin was just going through the motions... when he wanted to turn it on... HE SURE DID.... but there were times where Sundin was nowhere to be found.

It's amazing how Sundin's broken wrist has become a "finger injury".

 

[Deebo]

And Alyn McCauley, who filled in admirably on that line while Sundin was out.

Alex Mogilny scored some very big goals in those playoffs.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I remember Sundin being hurt with a "finger" injury and disapearing in the playoffs until the third round vs. Carolina...the fan base was extremely disappointed in Sundin because guys were playing hurt. Cujo, Mogilny and Roberts were leading the team back then...

Along with Tucker... Mogilny/Roberts were playing with god damn floating bones.... banged up to all hell and here's Sundin sitting out til the Carolina series? Give me a break. Mogilny even made a "contraversial" comment regarding Sundin's commitment during that playoff run.

If you wanna talk the truth - Dougie carried the team in the playoffs. He played hurt and didn't miss a beat. The team, the fanbase - relied on Gilmour's CLUTCH - not Clark's... not Andreychuck's... and especially not Borchevsky's (although he did pot the OT winner vs Detroit to win the series)...

That's the difference... when the game was on the line - Dougie would be the go to guy and come through.... In that Sundin era.... it was the likes of Roberts/Mogilny and Sundin if he felt like it... at times it appeared as Sundin was just going through the motions... when he wanted to turn it on... HE SURE DID.... but there were times where Sundin was nowhere to be found.

This, for the young people in the crowd reading, was a typical view of the Leafs captain from 98-04. When people didn't have a large amount to complain about, they would criticize the Maple Leaf captain for not having as much heart (hart) as the two who proceeded him. It seemed silly then, it seems even worse now. You wouldn't think that the franchise leader in points, former all time overtime goals leader in NHL history, and a hockey hall of famer, would be so heavily criticized by I'd say 70% of the fanbase, but it happened kids.

 

[Derek Synak]

Alex Mogilny scored some very big goals in those playoffs.

and he also turned the puck over with a pass behind his own net that led to the series winning goal for the Canes.

 

[rojac]

just addressing some random points which have been brought up in this thread;

-I like Sundin a lot but you really can't credit him for 2002; He left the islanders series while we were up 2-1 (we won in 7), didnt play in the sens series which we also won in 7, returned while we were up 1-0 against the canes and we lost in 6. So if you do want to play spin doctor, They won the 2 series without Sundin playing the deciding game and lost the 1 where he did.
while sundin wasn't a playoff choker, seemed just about every playoff series the leafs lost, the opposition found a way to contain him. Don't get me wrong, he was great in some of the ones we won but the elite players all have stories of finding ways to come through in the clutch while the less-than-elite ones have stories of getting shut down (for instance the Sedin twins now)

Sundin played 2 or 3 games of the Islanders series with his wrist frozen before finally leaving. And I will point out that in the Carolina series, that Mats Sundin scored in the dying seonds of game six to send the game to overtime. I believe he also tied the final game of the Philadephia series in 2004 to send it to overtime -- in that series, he was also primarily responsible for one of Toronto's wins So, don't give me this nonsense about Sundin not coming through in the series where they lose.

Also, when it comes to the Carolina series, you can't forget Pat Quinn's heart problems, which kept him away from the team for two or three games.

 

[Tak7]

And Alyn McCauley, who filled in admirably on that line while Sundin was out.

Roberts - McCauley - Hoglund.

What an incredible line that was. Those 3, and Joseph, were really the spine of the team in that post season. Was magical stuff.

I remember a game against the Hurricanes, after the introductions when the lights came on, they showed Pat Quinn behind the bench on the big screen and the place went mental - nobody was expecting him to be on the bench that night. Damn, the playoffs were magic. I remember wanting to cry when I saw Pat.

And of course the quote that was on the big screen for most of the playoffs:

"It's not about whose not here. It's about those that are" - Mats

 

[hockeyfanz*]

two major differences between Sundin and Gilmour..

1.) Sundin wasn't embraced and kissed and talked about every Saturday night on coaches corner...

and

2.) Sundin was born in Sweden.

I cannot think for the life of me why anybody would put Sundin down and elevate Gilmour to God status. For me Sundin was the better player in a Leaf uniform although Killer's two seasons where he topped 100pts in a Leaf uniform were the best years a Leaf has performed in my lifetime.

Those who had the privilege to watch Borje Salming play may also have differing opinions to the greatest heart and soul player in post expansion Leafs history.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

This, for the young people in the crowd reading, was a typical view of the Leafs captain from 98-04. When people didn't have a large amount to complain about, they would criticize the Maple Leaf captain for not having as much heart (hart) as the two who proceeded him. It seemed silly then, it seems even worse now. You wouldn't think that the franchise leader in points, former all time overtime goals leader in NHL history, and a hockey hall of famer, would be so heavily criticized by I'd say 70% of the fanbase, but it happened kids.

pretty dumb,,,,how toronto fans embrace and idolize plugs but world class players are treated like garbage.

Sidenote...the whole Mats is a traitor and Dougie is god schtick is BS and really old. Can we move on? I got to get back to painting my Dougie statue on my front lawn.

 

[ACC1224]

pretty dumb,,,,how toronto fans embrace and idolize plugs but world class players are treated like garbage.

Sidenote...the whole Mats is a traitor and Dougie is god schtick is BS and really old. Can we move on? I got to get back to painting my Dougie statue on my front lawn.

Like Kessel?

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Like Kessel?

Kessel aint no Sundin...not even close...but okay...Ill give you kessel...And how Mike Brown could do no wrong....even his moustache was a star.

Hope you are not suggesting that I treat Kessel like garbage cause you couldnt be further from the truth.

 

[ACC1224]

Kessel aint no Sundin...not even close...but okay...Ill give you kessel...And how Mike Brown could do no wrong....even his moustache was a star.

Hope you are not suggesting that I treat Kessel like garbage cause you couldnt be further from the truth.

More of a general comment.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Kessel aint no Sundin...not even close...but okay...Ill give you kessel...And how Mike Brown could do no wrong....even his moustache was a star.

Hope you are not suggesting that I treat Kessel like garbage cause you couldnt be further from the truth.

There are actually a ton of similarities.

The fanbase:
- criticizes the individual for lack of physical play
- value lesser skilled players more for reasons that are beyond rational thought
- under-appreciates their accomplishments
- are not as fond of them because they are not canadian
- dislike the individual's lack of vocalization
- underestimate the individual's leadership abilities

The parallels are evident.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

There are actually a ton of similarities.

The fanbase:
- criticizes the individual for lack of physical play
- value lesser skilled players more for reasons that are beyond rational thought
- under-appreciates their accomplishments
- are not as fond of them because they are not canadian
- dislike the individual's lack of vocalization
- underestimate the individual's leadership abilities

The parallels are evident.

Yes but I was speaking strictly from a skill standpoint...I love Phil but Mats brought much more to the table. Much much more. But yes Kessel gets ridden unfairly, IMO. He is a star player with extraordinary skills. Absolutely.