Post-Game Talk: Devils win! NJ 4 - Seattle 2

[Triumph]

The NHL in the 70s and 80s was incredibly dirty, it was open season on everyone. This myth that goons "protected the stars" is such nonsense.

The thing is, they might have done so, but A: some teams' goons weren't as good as others so presumably they weren't doing a lot of protecting B: the game had one referee and a limited number of camera angles, so there probably was a lot more behind the play stuff that was missed by the officials - hell even in my early days of being a fan, they didn't suspend John MacLean in the 1997 playoffs for breaking Niclas Sundstrom's arm because even though it was obvious he had slashed him behind the play, they didn't have a clear view of the slash. (And because they farcially didn't suspend Mark Messier for clotheslining Doug Gilmour in Game 1). That's all out the window, the league sees pretty much everything now.

Also the most important thing was C - goons started half of the shit themselves, this idea that the enforcer's job was just to enforce and not to also go after the other team's stars is a load of happy horseshit washed in nostalgia.

 

[captainscott]

Siegenthaler hasn't been too bad, but he's saddled with Subban and they're both playing above their capable roles right now.

White and Jarros suck. I feel like White is only here to remind us that Subban isn't as bad as we think he is.

yeah i don't mind PK... he is a solid 5/6 guy now that can play special teams when needed nothing wrong with having that around... just not at 9 million per but that is what it is... it will be interesteng to see what becomes of PK if the devils are in the playoff mix at deadline.... i would be shocked if they traded him for a pick...at that point if they are in mix

 

[Call Me Al]

what’s the difference it was siegenthaler that concussed their young guy in the end anyway

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Do you not see how this is totally unfalsifiable? We iced the goon. The thing you said he would prevent from happening happened. Icing him will potentially prevent it from happening in the future? Because someone won’t want to fight him?

Players get injured, it’s a contact sport. Lauzon is thinking about finishing his check in that moment and nothing else. It’s his job and he’ll keep doing it.

 

[MartyOwns]

its not a fallacy .... if you hit a star player hard .... many times you know you have to fight.. not every guy wants to fight every night.... so on some nights they may think twice..fact.

there's no evidence i've seen that fighting reduces cheap shots/dirty hits from happening. the season is a week old and there's been a slew of big hits and injuries, fighting does nothing to deter that.

if you want to get the cheap shit out of the game, the answer is a complete overhaul of the officiating, where off-ice officials are calling penalties that refs miss. almost any of our guys can stand up for themselves, we don't need some useless meathead in our lineup.

 

[My3Sons]

I don't care if we have a guy who can fight while also being able to play a regular shift, but goons are useless.

People far too often mistake "hard to play against" as having goons though. That simply isn't the case.

the had one in Bastian and it’s a shame he is in Seattle now. He was a perfectly serviceable RW4 and could fight if needed. Now the team is stuck with Geersten in that role. That makes the fights an event and more of a big deal than they should be but it’s a necessary evil.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Do you not see how this is totally unfalsifiable? We iced the goon. The thing you said he would prevent from happening happened. Icing him will potentially prevent it from happening in the future? Because someone won’t want to fight him?

Players get injured, it’s a contact sport. Lauzon is thinking about finishing his check in that moment and nothing else. It’s his job and he’ll keep doing it.

Yeah it was a clean hit and Jack needs to learn to anticipate and protect himself better - either duck underneath the guy or (a la Kucherov or Hedman) spear him in the groin before he rides you into the glass. Live and Learn. McDavid got ridden into the ice by three Philly guys for a broken collarbone early on, before he learned.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

The way to get bigger and tougher to play against is getting large players that can play the game (Graves, Hamilton). If Lauzon tries that exact hit against either of them, they are not getting upended and landing on their shoulder.

Jack is going to have to get stronger and learn to avoid situations like that.

 

[My3Sons]

Yeah it was a clean hit and Jack needs to learn to anticipate and protect himself better - either duck underneath the guy or (a la Kucherov or Hedman) spear him in the groin before he rides you into the glass. Live and Learn. McDavid got ridden into the ice by three Philly guys for a broken collarbone early on, before he learned.

I thought Lauzon made contact with Jack’s numbers and drove him into the boards from there. The hit isn’t likely what injured him as opposed to the fall but I don’t see that as a legit hit. If it is I’d have a team of sociopaths piling driving the other team’s best players face first into the boards from behind over and over.

 

[ScottyK]

The way to get bigger and tougher to play against is getting large players that can play the game (Graves, Hamilton). If Lauzon tries that exact hit against either of them, they are not getting upended and landing on their shoulder.

Jack is going to have to get stronger and learn to avoid situations like that.

lol he got pitchforked with Lauzon's stick....theres not much you can do except be a lot heavier to avoid that...which obviously will never be jack

 

[TrufleShufle]

I don't care if we have a guy who can fight while also being able to play a regular shift, but goons are useless.

People far too often mistake "hard to play against" as having goons though. That simply isn't the case.

Yeah but that exact thing is why this argument gets blown out of proportion every time. People who don't care for that aspect of the game will always pretend people who want to "be harder to play against," or god forbid, want some "grit," are saying that "we need goons," which is close to 100% of the time not said at all. Then people start having to defend arguments they aren't even having.

Players on a regular basis say how important it is to have a team mate step up for them in certain moments. No one is saying "we need a goon," but to just ignore what so many players have said like what they say isn't the most important voice out there, is crazy.

 

[Blender]

Yeah but that exact thing is why this argument gets blown out of proportion every time. People who don't care for that aspect of the game will always pretend people who want to "be harder to play against," or god forbid, want some "grit," are saying that "we need goons," which is close to 100% of the time not said at all. Then people start having to defend arguments they aren't even having.

Players on a regular basis say how important it is to have a team mate step up for them in certain moments. No one is saying "we need a goon," but to just ignore what so many players have said like what they say isn't the most important voice out there, is crazy.

Being hard to play against also doesn't have to mean "grit" players specifically either, another misconception. For example, many of Mike Babcock's teams over the years were extremely hard to play against but rarely ever fought and didn't care much about grinder type players, everyone on the team was expected to close opponents down and make sure no one on the other team had any time or space. Sure for your less talented players that often means they are throwing hits and grinding it out in the corners as well, but for your more talented players it means working your ass off while out of possession and making sure the other team doesn't have a free lane anywhere they want.

 

[Camille the Eel]

I thought Lauzon made contact with Jack’s numbers and drove him into the boards from there. The hit isn’t likely what injured him as opposed to the fall but I don’t see that as a legit hit. If it is I’d have a team of sociopaths piling driving the other team’s best players face first into the boards from behind over and over.

could be . . . I agree he saw his opportunity to drive him into the glass and took that opportunity with gusto . . . But I thought the injury was splaying Jack’s extended arm and shoulder into the glass. Bent the arm acutely and stressed the shoulder - but I haven’t watched it after the initial replays

 

[TrufleShufle]

Being hard to play against also doesn't have to mean "grit" players specifically either, another misconception. For example, many of Mike Babcock's teams over the years were extremely hard to play against but rarely ever fought and didn't care much about grinder type players, everyone on the team was expected to close opponents down and make sure no one on the other team had any time or space. Sure for your less talented players that often means they are throwing hits and grinding it out in the corners as well, but for your more talented players it means working your ass off while out of possession and making sure the other team doesn't have a free lane anywhere they want.

I never said it did. That's why I said "or." Neither means goons. But bring up either and you end up talking about goons.

 

[VoidCreature]

Being taller would also mean Hughes would have farther to fall when tripped. Science shows that larger (taller) individuals have higher rates of injury and take longer to recover than shorter people.

 

[JimEIV]

The two issues should not be conflated. There is clearly something the players take from it. My guess is that the players have a belief that someone has to fight in certain situations. Walking away from it must be shameful or something. If nobody steps up the team will apparently be regarded as weak and maybe the pushback is a sign of a close knit team or something. I don't like fighting and I don't like the cheap shots either. I don't think most folks pay to watch the Reaves and Geerstens of the world nor do I think people pay to watch Marchand and Wilson cheap shot folks. The problem is that the lease won't do anything about it. While I agree that a guy like Geersten who seemingly has little skill is not doing much if he isn't fighting, having a Bastian around to take care of it in the 10 games a year it comes up is helpful. The trick is having a guy that can fight and play so you can concentrate on the playing and the few times the fighting comes up it's a minor event.

I don't know many hockey games I've been to in my life but I figure it's got to be close to 500...

There are 3 things that always get fans out of their seats.

A breakaway

A goal

And a fight

As long as I have watched this game that has been true...I can remember being in the parking lot of the Meadows having a conversation how Crowder was going to do against Probert...it wasn't "if", it was "when"...

Sorry but, the place was as electric for Crowder as it was any goal scored.

People were popin shit back then about eliminating fighting, largely from Gretzky comments, and every arena I have ever been in it's the same - A breakaway - a goal or A fight gets people standing and cheering.

Just listen to the crowd.

 

[My3Sons]

I don't know many hockey games I've been to in my life but I figure it's got to be close to 500...

There are 3 things that always get fans out of their seats.

A breakaway

A goal

And a fight

As long as I have watched this game that has been true...I can remember being in the parking lot of the Meadows having a conversation how Crowder was going to do against Probert...it wasn't "if", it was "when"...

Sorry but, the place was as electric for Crowder as it was any goal scored.

People were popin shit back then about eliminating fighting, largely from Gretzky comments, and every arena I have ever been in it's the same - A breakaway - a goal or A fight gets people standing and cheering.

Just listen to the crowd.

I remember that. I also know that fans react to the fight but let’s see the home town guy get pummeled and see how excited they are. I also think the fights are a side show. You go the circus to see the elephants acrobats and tigers. You sneak a peek at the freak show too but that’s not why you buy the ticket. I get that it is a part of the game. I just don’t think it’s necessary. NFL players do awful things to each other over and over and don’t fight. NHL players could learn to control themselves if they had to.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Sorry but that sounds more like a you thing. Most good players aren’t thinking about that and know how to protect themselves and not get hit badly. Sometimes awkward hits happen though and the often big guys throwing those hits definitely aren’t worried about Geersten.

How is it an ongoing problem? Has Jack gotten hurt a ton in his first two seasons? He played all 56 games last year. Nico broke his foot in the Off-season last year and then took a Subban slap shot to the face. Bratt has played a ton of games and missed very few. How is it an ongoing problem? This is the first incident I can think of.

Not sure which games you are watching. We folded the tents and got alligator arms last year against the caps as soon as we got ahead and they gooned it up. We did the same against numerous teams, and if you haven't seen Nico and jack and ty get hit, then sorry but you ain't watching the games.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Not sure which games you are watching. We folded the tents and got alligator arms last year against the caps as soon as we got ahead and they gooned it up. We did the same against numerous teams, and if you haven't seen Nico and jack and ty get hit, then sorry but you ain't watching the games.

They are going to get hit. It’s part of the game. It is going to happen lots.
You said we need to keep them in the lineup instead of the morgue and that it’s an ongoing problem. It isn’t an ongoing problem at all. This is the only incident I can think of. When else have they been hurt from getting hit. Jack played every single game last season.

 

[MadDevil]

Not sure which games you are watching. We folded the tents and got alligator arms last year against the caps as soon as we got ahead and they gooned it up. We did the same against numerous teams, and if you haven't seen Nico and jack and ty get hit, then sorry but you ain't watching the games.

Dressing a Geertsen every game isn't going to stop those players from being hit, it'll just give us somebody to go after a player after they already hit them so everybody can feel like something was done about it.

 

[MadDevil]

Of course fans get out of their seats for a fight, it's an adrenaline rush. Just like a big wreck at a NASCAR race. That has nothing to do with the supposed deterrence of said fight.

 

[Hisch13r]

there's no evidence i've seen that fighting reduces cheap shots/dirty hits from happening. the season is a week old and there's been a slew of big hits and injuries, fighting does nothing to deter that.

if you want to get the cheap shit out of the game, the answer is a complete overhaul of the officiating, where off-ice officials are calling penalties that refs miss. almost any of our guys can stand up for themselves, we don't need some useless meathead in our lineup.

It was never true in the past either. The game was literally dirtier in the past when everyone had them. It's literally never been true.

 

[JimEIV]

I remember that. I also know that fans react to the fight but let’s see the home town guy get pummeled and see how excited they are. I also think the fights are a side show. You go the circus to see the elephants acrobats and tigers. You sneak a peek at the freak show too but that’s not why you buy the ticket. I get that it is a part of the game. I just don’t think it’s necessary. NFL players do awful things to each other over and over and don’t fight. NHL players could learn to control themselves if they had to.

People have enjoyed watching violence since the dawn of time. Maurice Thompson said it best in the Witchery of Archery -

We are nothing better than refined and enlightened savages. The fibre of our nature is not changed in substance; it is polished and oiled. The wild side of the prism of humanity still offers its pleasures to us, and it is healthful and essentially necessary to broad culture that we accept them in moderation.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Dressing a Geertsen every game isn't going to stop those players from being hit, it'll just give us somebody to go after a player after they already hit them so everybody can feel like something was done about it.

Dressing geersten might not do anything, but dressing Wilson does something to us.

 

[billingtons ghost]

They are going to get hit. It’s part of the game. It is going to happen lots.
You said we need to keep them in the lineup instead of the morgue and that it’s an ongoing problem. It isn’t an ongoing problem at all. This is the only incident I can think of. When else have they been hurt from getting hit. Jack played every single game last season.

So your take is, it is all on Jack, he should be better and not get hit.