Devils 2019 offseason team discussion (news and notes) IIl

[KovalchukFistPump]

Jacob Trouba is only slightly better than Damon Severson. We should not be looking to acquire Trouba unless we were to get him at a significant discount. With Trouba's upcoming contract, Severson will likely be the more valuable asset.

We should be looking to acquire 1 defenseman on this list of realistic targets. (Some more realistic than others)

Klefbom, Lindholm, Nurse, Fowler, Hutton, Morrissey, Matheson, Orlov, Leddy, Muzzin, Brodie, Murray, Skjei, Gardiner, Hanifin

Most of those are not available. For example, why would Toronto trade Muzzin when their Cup window is now? I don't know about Gardiner. Leafs fans seem to hate him defensively, so if he is a tire fire in his own zone then that's the opposite of what we need. On the other hand, metrics seem to think he's ok to good defensively.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Most of those are not available. For example, why would Toronto trade Muzzin when their Cup window is now? I don't know about Gardiner. Leafs fans seem to hate him defensively, so if he is a tire fire in his own zone then that's the opposite of what we need. On the other hand, metrics seem to think he's ok to good defensively.

I'm not implying we have to acquire the defenseman this offseason. I actually think we might be better off just rolling with what we have for this season because due to the lack of defensemen available, the price for acquiring one must be sky high.

I think Shero should go all out, full court press, to sign Erik Karlsson. 7 years, 12.25 million AAV is probably the highest I would go. I also think Myers/Gardiner could help but only at the appropriate term and dollars. (And with the lack of defensemen available, they will both likely get overpaid. Therefore, I reject)

As for Gardiner, if he were willing to sign here at say, 5 years 30 million, I think I would strongly consider it. Puck-moving defensemen are very valuable. Puck-moving defensemen tend to bring the most out of your forward group. And yes, as you said, his defensive game really isn't that bad. That's just Toronto media for you.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Jacob Trouba is only slightly better than Damon Severson. We should not be looking to acquire Trouba unless we were to get him at a significant discount. With Trouba's upcoming contract, Severson will likely be the more valuable asset.

We should be looking to acquire 1 defenseman on this list of realistic targets. (Some more realistic than others)

Klefbom, Lindholm, Nurse, Fowler, Hutton, Morrissey, Matheson, Orlov, Leddy, Muzzin, Brodie, Murray, Skjei, Gardiner, Hanifin

Ive seen the named mentioned a few times but youre missing Mattias Ekholm, who could be the best fit of any name on there. And I want nothing to do with Hutton, Gardiner, Murray, or Leddy

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Yes, there are benefits, but it's not a disappearing act. Pronger, Savard, and Hossa all got traded and those are just the 3 I can remember. Savard got traded twice.



The Devils never got fined a 1st round pick for hiding Richard Matvichuk on LTIR all season until the last game of the year when he magically healed enough to play (and coincidentally the Devils' salary cap allowed room for him). I suppose they could've, but they didn't.



That's what being not good anymore is, in part - the collective effect of chronic injuries, which Luongo no doubt has.

Pronger and Savard did not get all the sudden “terribly injured” the moment their contracts entered the illusory salary phase. Hossa did and that’s Florida wants to do with Luongo. In the meanwhile, teams got significant cap savings as a result of the years of illusory salary.

If we lost a first round pick because of a voided contract that would have accomplished the same thing, i.e. Kovalchuk would have come up with some nonsense injury right when the deal plunged to nothing, I fail to see why every single other team that does it only gets a stern talking to.

 

[JimEIV]

^This exactly (at least for me). I think Sev's play took a big jump this year - and he became a solid second-pairing guy with elite upside and displayed the best of his offensive instincts while limiting the bonehead plays.

I think the polarizing hatred stems from whiplash to certain fanboys on this site who were prematurely calling him 'our best defenseman' (which still may be premature even now) and the 'Corsi' argument - when it was clear to the eye test that he was blowing assignments, making poor decisions and costing us goals.

Over the second half - he really cut back on alot of the glaring gaffes and he exerted himself physically in his own zone. I'd still love for him to be stronger in the crease, more physical, and use his stick more -

If he does improve those things, he could be a legit #1 defenseman in this league by year's end and the defensive cornerstone we need.

Did anyone think the progress would be completed by age 24?

Since day one Severson has the ability to make plays that no other defenseman we've had for quite a while can make...does he have lapses? Of course he does but the raw talent is obvious and much more difficult to come by.

And the Corsi argument is an important one in this regard... I think it highlights the fact that people were/are missing a lot of what Severson does and makes him valuable.

If you're in the camp that a gaffe outweighs numerous crisp passes and breakouts setting up multiple opportunities...then there is probably not much room to discuss. But I think if you are willing to weigh what Severson does bring honestly against his areas that need improvement, it should be apparent that his positive attributes are much more valuable than the weaknesses.

 

[Triumph]

Pronger and Savard did not get all the sudden “terribly injured” the moment their contracts entered the illusory salary phase. Hossa did and that’s Florida wants to do with Luongo. In the meanwhile, teams got significant cap savings as a result of the years of illusory salary.

If we lost a first round pick because of a voided contract that would have accomplished the same thing, i.e. Kovalchuk would have come up with some nonsense injury right when the deal plunged to nothing, I fail to see why every single other team that does it only gets a stern talking to.

Because that's not what would've happened. Kovalchuk's contract was set up for him to retire to Russia in his late 30s. He couldn't do that with a fake injury - he's forbidden from playing hockey anywhere.

 

[Billdo]

Yes, that's the point, almost every player over 30 has a condition that is 'chronic'. I don't think there's a large difference between 'it takes an incredible amount of effort and planning (and pain) for this person to play hockey professionally' and 'too injured to play'. It's up to the player at that point.

Also Hossa's equipment allergy is real. He was taking medication for it and that was starting to cause side effects.

In addition, LTIR does not remove players from a team's salary cap and this whole discussion started talking about players on long-term deals who were too injured to continue playing who were traded by their original team because they were an impediment to their club's salary cap planning.

Hossa started having these reactions and negative side effects when his salary dropped from $4,000,000 to $1,000,000. Maybe the $1,000,000 wasn't worth the side effects anymore but it was when he was getting 4x that. Don't try and make it seem like money has no part in him bailing.

 

[Brooklyndevil]

I’d definitely stay away from Subban.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Did anyone think the progress would be completed by age 24?

No one ever said such a thing...and certainly not me - I've been firmly in the camp of 'someday he'll likely be a great defenseman for us' = emphasis on the 'someday' not being today.

Since day one Severson has the ability to make plays that no other defenseman we've had for quite a while can make...does he have lapses? Of course he does but the raw talent is obvious and much more difficult to come by.

Absolutely, and we've been salivating since he was a rookie.

And the Corsi argument is an important one in this regard... I think it highlights the fact that people were/are missing a lot of what Severson does and makes him valuable.

No. It's oversold garbage that nearly completely neglects the defensive zone in the equation and when they actually succeed in getting truly advanced statistics we'll despise it and look past it the way +/- is despised around here.

If you're in the camp that a gaffe outweighs numerous crisp passes and breakouts setting up multiple opportunities...then there is probably not much room to discuss. But I think if you are willing to weigh what Severson does bring honestly against his areas that need improvement, it should be apparent that his positive attributes are much more valuable than the weaknesses.

The problem was and has always been that with Severson it was a near wash. 22 minutes of very, very good play by him could get erased by an awful gaffe that only stood to highlight the general overall poor team defensive play and he became a lightning rod. It isn't just the gaffes either - it is some general lackadaisical moments, some lack of physicality... etc

Up until about half way through this year, he's almost managed to play himself out of the lineup- and this DESPITE all of his excellent upside and the talent to which you point. Did he deserve the criticism - partly, yes - but was it way over-magnified to the point of unfairness because the team defense and goaltenders stunk? Absolutely.

I don't know if there'll come a point when no one is critical of his game. People are still critical of EK - and rightly so, IMHO.
We should be so lucky.

 

[Triumph]

Hossa started having these reactions and negative side effects when his salary dropped from $4,000,000 to $1,000,000. Maybe the $1,000,000 wasn't worth the side effects anymore but it was when he was getting 4x that. Don't try and make it seem like money has no part in him bailing.

Huh? As an injured player, he gets paid regardless.

 

[JimEIV]

The problem was and has always been that with Severson it was a near wash. 22 minutes of very, very good play by him could get erased by an awful gaffe that only stood to highlight the general overall poor team defensive play and he became a lightning rod. It isn't just the gaffes either - it is some general lackadaisical moments, some lack of physicality... etc

That is the conversation ender for me...

I think it is utterly ridiculous to believe a gaffe or a momentary lapse could
wipe out 22 good minutes.

In the same exact way it was utterly ridiculous for fans here to watch 21 minutes of completely shitty hockey and have their mind erased by one rush up the ice from the Soviet contractor.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Because that's not what would've happened. Kovalchuk's contract was set up for him to retire to Russia in his late 30s. He couldn't do that with a fake injury - he's forbidden from playing hockey anywhere.

It’s a distinction without a difference, unless you’re saying that getting cap savings by calling the years you’re not playing and foregoing a nominal salary as being “injured” is somehow better than deciding to play in Russia.

 

[billingtons ghost]

That is the conversation ender for me...

I think it is utterly ridiculous to believe a gaffe or a momentary lapse could
wipe out 22 good minutes.

In the same exact way it was utterly ridiculous for fans here to watch 21 minutes of completely ****ty hockey and have their mind erased by one rush up the ice from the Soviet contractor.

See- and that is what I find utterly ridiculous from your side - that winning/losing because of either said gaffe or spectacular Russian putting a puck in either net .... can somehow not matter in this discussion as long as the Corsi is good.

And make no mistake about it - both Kovy and Severson are ultra talented guys, and the fact that one plays defense and one plays offense and the puck ends up in the net at either end also unfairly makes all of the difference as how they're perceived.

I'm not advocating this particular point of view - I'm just saying I understand it completely because there's a reason why guys are in the Hall of Fame and why no one cares about the Hall of Very Good.

 

[Nubmer6]

 

[Billdo]

Huh? As an injured player, he gets paid regardless.

He left as soon as the paychecks went from $4,000,000 to a mil. Coincidence?

 

[RSeen]

I’m not sure if Hughes outscores what Nico did as a rookie at even strength (it was pretty damn underrated-though being with MVP Hall helped), but I think he’s gonna be a godsend for our PP and rack up points there. Zone entry machine, elite vision...I look forward to him setting up Palmieri/Severson/Vatanen one timers.

I think it is largely going to depend on quality of linemates. Though if he gets top PP unit time, he could possibly get there. I don't know all that much about him, but my perception is that he is superior offensively relative to Nico pre-draft.

 

[NJDevs26]

That is the conversation ender for me...

I think it is utterly ridiculous to believe a gaffe or a momentary lapse could
wipe out 22 good minutes.

It frequently wipes out 60 otherwise good minutes from a goalie.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Some posters have always been under the false impression that only our players, specifically the ones they are already critical of, make mistakes.

I think it has to do with not picking apart other team’s players shift by shift like we do our own.

 

[JimEIV]

It frequently wipes out 60 otherwise good minutes from a goalie.

No it doesn't. One gaffe/mistake every 60 minutes is a Hall of Fame career.

 

[MichaelJ]

Ive seen the named mentioned a few times but youre missing Mattias Ekholm, who could be the best fit of any name on there. And I want nothing to do with Hutton, Gardiner, Murray, or Leddy

Ekholm won’t be available

 

[R8Devs]

time to buy low on nylander. reunite hughes with his roommate for a couple weeks

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

They should try to trade for Trouba at the draft and failing that, sign Myers. We can't afford to go next season with the same D. Gotta spend money at some point and defense is this team's biggest need. Myers is not as bad as some people make him out to be and he's not awful offensively. Don't need everyone on the team to be a speedster.

 

[Emperoreddy]

time to buy low on nylander. reunite hughes with his roommate for a couple weeks

Nah I am good. Same with Myers.

 

[R8Devs]

Nah I am good. Same with Myers.

I made that comment in half-jest because I don't think the Leafs will trade him. But I'd take him if the Leafs actually want to move him because of cap issues or whatever. 22 years old with 2 seasons of 60 points already, right shot and can play both wing and center.
You would have:

Left shot wings -- Hall, Bratt, Coleman, Wood
Centers -- Hischier, Hughes, Zacha, Zajac
Right shot wings -- Palmieri, Nylander

Could assemble a much nicer/balanced top 9 with Nylander in the mix.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I haven't watched enough of Gardiner to form any opinion on him I would stand behind, but after reading through the Post-Game Talk thread on the leafs board, my opinion is now that I absolutely want nothing to do with him and will stand behind that.