Devils 2019-20 team discussion (news and notes) - In limbo version

[Spoiled Bratt]

I think I used the word "opportunistic" bargain bin...
It was an opportunistic trade by a cash strapped team that couldn't afford the up coming bill...

By the way, Henrique's 62 goals in Anaheim since the trade would have been one of the best on our team...Where are we today with that transaction?

They could afford him but they didn’t want to invest half their cap in 4 dmen plus they needed help down the middle.

We needed help everywhere, but mostly on defence and that’s why the trade went down.

I don’t even know why I’m typing this but you seem to have a very selective memory.

 

[theoptimist]

I love that we are still discussing picks from almost 10 years ago.

It's so boring

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

Nice to hear that from him. Just need a backup who can play every three or four games for him.

Blackwood looked terrific whenever he was well rested. Every time he got into a stretch of playing multiple games he seemed to struggle. Seemed like after a while the Devils start doing something like a three-on, one-off workload regardless of who was the back-up and Blackwood was stellar.

Agree 100%. Just being able to think a goalie could be a #1 at age 23 puts the Devils in a good spot. If there is a compliance type of buyout due to the COVID situation that would be ideal. I do not think a decent 1B would have signed here last year with Cory and Blackwood. This year I think one will be willing to sign. That should not be too difficult to upgrade. I wish I could say the same about the "D"!

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Smart answer!

I’d like to hear your ideal game plan moving forward... that’s if you feel like sticking your neck out so someone can possible rehash a post you made 14 months ago and call you on it.

If status quo is going to be your response, you can just ignore my post cause that’s the easy way out.

Can’t wait to see what your have in mind

 

[My3Sons]

WTF are you talking about?

I’m certain you know this but I’m not the GM of the New Jersey Devils, so whatever proposal I write on a message board, good or bad, won’t have any effect on our team.

I’ll comment on deals that actually got approved by the league and moving 2nd round picks and an unproven prospect for a legit top#4 dman was a no brainer move to make. The biggest asset we gave up was cap space, which we still have a ton of.

If you want to wait until all our picks start to materialize, we’ll just be wasting way the prime years of our current youngsters... and then we’ll have to trade Hischier and Hughes because they won’t fit the timeline of the kids we draft this year or next year.

Your vision is a revolving rebuild that has no end and I don’t want that.

You posit what amounts to the worst case scenario. Sure, if the team still stinks in seven years then yes, you have to consider trading Hischier. If the team continues to be this bad for the next seven years the team would owe it to him to trade him to a better team. He'd have PTSD by then.

I think an alternative is that the team's draft picks start panning out. Younger and/or unproven players like Hughes, Smith, Boquist, Anderson, and this year's first round picks develop and are better, in some cases significantly than the players they replace and the team becomes good. Maybe not immediate cup contention good but at least moving in that direction. At that point, you can decide who is in your core and pay accordingly. A 28 year old Nico on a good team coming off a couple of solid playoff runs where he made a difference is a good signing even if it takes him into his 30s (assuming he is healthy when he signs). He's a heart and should guy and a hard worker and sets a good example based on publicly available media. Hopefully Hughes grows into that as well and it's easy to advocate for a long term signing for him at that point.

It just seems premature to me right now. There's no real defined core in place. Is MBW a fluke? Will Hughes break out? Will Nico develop more of an offensive flair? Will Smith replace Butcher and upgrade the second pair? Lots of questions that need to at least suggest answers before I'd be comfortable trading good assets for a borderline core player at 28-29 to a hefty 8 year deal (if OEL is the example). You make a good point, but the counterpoint, to me, isn't as black and white as your example suggests. Just my opinion, not a fact.

 

[Billdo]

Subban, Butcher, Mueller excite you egh?

No but Subban, Severson, and Butcher right now is better than Larsson, Merrill, and Severson.

 

[The 29th Pick]

So when are we icing a competitive team???? 2022? 2023? 2024? 2025?

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

So when are we icing a competitive team???? 2022? 2023? 2024? 2025?

the Devils were a competitive team after they traded Hall. They played at a Wildcard pace. I think 20-21. What year do you think?

 

[JimEIV]

So when are we icing a competitive team???? 2022? 2023? 2024? 2025?

2 years away minimum and that is if everything goes perfectly and our youth matures perfectly...I wouldn't put money on it happening that quickly though.

New GM's plan and execution will be significant in the timeline.

I am also concerned that ownership is too involved in hockey decisions. That can be a problem going forward.

 

[My3Sons]

So sue me, I had one bad opinion! It’s also easy to talk after someone gets signed and fails miserably when word on our board was that a multi year deal was possible. If you hit the nail on the head by stating we’d sign him to a one year deal worth 5M$, then I guess you’re better then me but I doubt it very next.

It’s easy to not stick your neck out there when you’re perfect vision is just sit on your ass, wait for picks to blossom and trade away everyone who’s about to turn 29 and up.

Your opinion is just as bad, or worse, but I couldn’t care less because you and I have no impact on our roster.

You do know that's how Sakic is running COL, right?

 

[My3Sons]

2 years away minimum and that is if everything goes perfectly and our youth matures perfectly...I wouldn't put money on it happening that quickly though.

New GM's plan and execution will be significant in the timeline.

I am also concerned that ownership is too involved in hockey decisions. That can be a problem going forward.

I don't think it has to be perfect to meet your timeline but it is a realistic one. I also agree that ownership has sent me a message of intervention which I'm skeptical is a good approach to take.

 

[The 29th Pick]

the Devils were a competitive team after they traded Hall. They played at a Wildcard pace. I think 20-21. What year do you think?

Really not sure, lets see who they hire for coach/GM

2 years away minimum and that is if everything goes perfectly and our youth matures perfectly...I wouldn't put money on it happening that quickly though.

New GM's plan and execution will be significant in the timeline.

I am also concerned that ownership is too involved in hockey decisions. That can be a problem going forward.

This, I really really think they want some sort of "big" signing to attract more fans, and I think they'll let Fitz be the GM because they probably feel they can influence him easier than a veteran GM

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

if we

A) hire a real coach like Gallant

and

B) get a competent backup goalie

that in itself is a HUGE boost to the team, and thats without even making any other moves (which of course need to be made)

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

You posit what amounts to the worst case scenario. Sure, if the team still stinks in seven years then yes, you have to consider trading Hischier. If the team continues to be this bad for the next seven years the team would owe it to him to trade him to a better team. He'd have PTSD by then.

I think an alternative is that the team's draft picks start panning out. Younger and/or unproven players like Hughes, Smith, Boquist, Anderson, and this year's first round picks develop and are better, in some cases significantly than the players they replace and the team becomes good. Maybe not immediate cup contention good but at least moving in that direction. At that point, you can decide who is in your core and pay accordingly. A 28 year old Nico on a good team coming off a couple of solid playoff runs where he made a difference is a good signing even if it takes him into his 30s (assuming he is healthy when he signs). He's a heart and should guy and a hard worker and sets a good example based on publicly available media. Hopefully Hughes grows into that as well and it's easy to advocate for a long term signing for him at that point.

It just seems premature to me right now. There's no real defined core in place. Is MBW a fluke? Will Hughes break out? Will Nico develop more of an offensive flair? Will Smith replace Butcher and upgrade the second pair? Lots of questions that need to at least suggest answers before I'd be comfortable trading good assets for a borderline core player at 28-29 to a hefty 8 year deal (if OEL is the example). You make a good point, but the counterpoint, to me, isn't as black and white as your example suggests. Just my opinion, not a fact.

Waiting for our magic beans to flourish is the best possible outcome, it’s an ideal scenario and there’s no question about it but it’s also the slowest way to figuring out where you’re going as an organization.

If we have to wait for Smith, Boqvist, Foote, Bahl as well as the 6th, 10th ans 17th overall pick to prove themselves, we’ll be waisting the prime years of our former bluechip prospects as well as the core guys we have at the moment in Palmieri, Subban and Severson (who i don’t really consider as a core player but nevertheless, he’s one of our better dman).

I fully understand that we can’t move a premium asset for a quick fix, like what Lou did with Corey, but at the same time you have to groom the current young studs you have on your team. I’m pretty certain the guys I mentioned as well as Hischier, Bratt, Hughes, etc don’t give two licks about waiting for a kid that was 2 years ago. I’m certain they’re excited about the future but I’d be willing to bet anything that they would rather play meaningful games, even if it means possibly missing the playoffs by the skin of their teeth.

How many more beatings can Hischier take before he starts to sour on us? Every year he’s been here has been disastrous, outside of his rookie year. At some point, management has to show their players that it won’t be in a forever rebuild.

Shero took a gamble on Grabner and unfortunately for us, he sucked as a member of the Devils. The upside to that move is that it showed trust to the rest of that locker room and they went on a epic run to make the playoffs by a single point. Is that trade the main reason why we had the run we did, absolutely not but I’d be willing to bet that it was a key part of it, yes.

I’m a firm believer that building from within is the only way to succeed but at the same time, you don’t need a homegrown team of 22 players on your roster.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

if we

A) hire a real coach like Gallant

and

B) get a competent backup goalie

that in itself is a HUGE boost to the team, and thats without even making any other moves (which of course need to be made)

Both moves will show exactly where this team is heading.

 

[JimEIV]

Waiting for our magic beans to flourish is the best possible outcome, it’s an ideal scenario and there’s no question about it but it’s also the slowest way to figuring out where you’re going as an organization.

If we have to wait for Smith, Boqvist, Foote, Bahl as well as the 6th, 10th ans 17th overall pick to prove themselves, we’ll be waisting the prime years of our former bluechip prospects as well as the core guys we have at the moment in Palmieri, Subban and Severson (who i don’t really consider as a core player but nevertheless, he’s one of our better dman).

I fully understand that we can’t move a premium asset for a quick fix, like what Lou did with Corey, but at the same time you have to groom the current young studs you have on your team. I’m pretty certain the guys I mentioned as well as Hischier, Bratt, Hughes, etc don’t give two licks about waiting for a kid that was 2 years ago. I’m certain they’re excited about the future but I’d be willing to bet anything that they would rather play meaningful games, even if it means possibly missing the playoffs by the skin of their teeth.

How many more beatings can Hischier take before he starts to sour on us? Every year he’s been here has been disastrous, outside of his rookie year. At some point, management has to show their players that it won’t be in a forever rebuild.

Shero took a gamble on Grabner and unfortunately for us, he sucked as a member of the Devils. The upside to that move is that it showed trust to the rest of that locker room and they went on a epic run to make the playoffs by a single point. Is that trade the main reason why we had the run we did, absolutely not but I’d be willing to bet that it was a key part of it, yes.

I’m a firm believer that building from within is the only way to succeed but at the same time, you don’t need a homegrown team of 22 players on your roster.

 

[My3Sons]

Waiting for our magic beans to flourish is the best possible outcome, it’s an ideal scenario and there’s no question about it but it’s also the slowest way to figuring out where you’re going as an organization.

If we have to wait for Smith, Boqvist, Foote, Bahl as well as the 6th, 10th ans 17th overall pick to prove themselves, we’ll be waisting the prime years of our former bluechip prospects as well as the core guys we have at the moment in Palmieri, Subban and Severson (who i don’t really consider as a core player but nevertheless, he’s one of our better dman).

I fully understand that we can’t move a premium asset for a quick fix, like what Lou did with Corey, but at the same time you have to groom the current young studs you have on your team. I’m pretty certain the guys I mentioned as well as Hischier, Bratt, Hughes, etc don’t give two licks about waiting for a kid that was 2 years ago. I’m certain they’re excited about the future but I’d be willing to bet anything that they would rather play meaningful games, even if it means possibly missing the playoffs by the skin of their teeth.

How many more beatings can Hischier take before he starts to sour on us? Every year he’s been here has been disastrous, outside of his rookie year. At some point, management has to show their players that it won’t be in a forever rebuild.

Shero took a gamble on Grabner and unfortunately for us, he sucked as a member of the Devils. The upside to that move is that it showed trust to the rest of that locker room and they went on a epic run to make the playoffs by a single point. Is that trade the main reason why we had the run we did, absolutely not but I’d be willing to bet that it was a key part of it, yes.

I’m a firm believer that building from within is the only way to succeed but at the same time, you don’t need a homegrown team of 22 players on your roster.

I agree with you to a large extent. I guess where we differ is that I believe if the home grown talent doesn't flourish you are not going to progress enough that bringing in only one or two guys from outside will make the difference. Gusev was a nice addition once he got going but for whatever reason, the team was just mediocre this season. I don't advocate waiting forever but unless you can add a core guy it's just looking to add a Palms or Gusev who are great players but not great enough to pull the team out of the doldrums as I see it. Nico, Jack and a couple of other guys need to be better. I just don't see a way around it. MBW seems to have made that transition and I'm confident that other guys will start to do that as well. In two years at the TDL we may be ready to trade a first an a prospect to a cap strapped team for a nice complimentary player who can actually fit with what the team is doing. Maybe next year at the TDL they can trade a second and a prospect for a rental to help with a playoff push.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

Really not sure, lets see who they hire for coach/GM

This, I really really think they want some sort of "big" signing to attract more fans, and I think they'll let Fitz be the GM because they probably feel they can influence him easier than a veteran GM

I am surprised some of the posters are not a little more positive about the team than they are. Think how positive most posters were coming into this season. Two of the big reasons that posters blamed on the poor start was the coach and the goalie play. Not surprisingly 22 year old (to start the season) Blackwood was inconsistent. Not going out on a limb stating he will likely be more consistent this season. The coach will not be here. Gusev was terrible early but was playing much better late. No reason to think he will not be better. The team had multiple forwards under 23 on the roster and on the cusp of coming up. Aging curves tell me they should be more productive. They are the plusses I am seeing.

Obviously no one knows how things will go with respect player movement/cap due to COVID. I mentioned in another post but I am not worried that management will be looking to make a splash for the sake of doing so this offseason. Even if they were, it is likely revenues from home games will be down due to COVID. I am not sure a splash FA signing will help due to COVID. No one knows how that part will play out business wise. Also it has been reported that the Analytics group has influence in decision making. Those guys know what aging graphs show with respect to player production. The only big name potential UFA I would have interest in is AP if he makes it. Is there anyone else you think would tempt them?

 

[The 29th Pick]

I am surprised some of the posters are not a little more positive about the team than they are. Think how positive most posters were coming into this season. Two of the big reasons that posters blamed on the poor start was the coach and the goalie play. Not surprisingly 22 year old (to start the season) Blackwood was inconsistent. Not going out on a limb stating he will likely be more consistent this season. The coach will not be here. Gusev was terrible early but was playing much better late. No reason to think he will not be better. The team had multiple forwards under 23 on the roster and on the cusp of coming up. Aging curves tell me they should be more productive. They are the plusses I am seeing.

Obviously no one knows how things will go with respect player movement/cap due to COVID. I mentioned in another post but I am not worried that management will be looking to make a splash for the sake of doing so this offseason. Even if they were, it is likely revenues from home games will be down due to COVID. I am not sure a splash FA signing will help due to COVID. No one knows how that part will play out business wise. Also it has been reported that the Analytics group has influence in decision making. Those guys know what aging graphs show with respect to player production. The only big name potential UFA I would have interest in is AP if he makes it. Is there anyone else you think would tempt them?

Look I just think (and its only my opinion) the owners were on board with Shero, BUT as time went along, and the team didnt improve (although all our rivals got better) and then Shero traded Hall away ( I really think the owners wanted Taylor signed long term) they soured real quick and when it rains it pours. So I now think they want the Devils to be more relevant and show the fans and the hockey community we're serious about winning, sooner rather than later. Also they noticed what Lou did with the Isle's and what the Flyers did last year and figure we can get better overnight. Again it's just my opinion, but I don't feel they have the patience to wait two or three years.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

I agree with you to a large extent. I guess where we differ is that I believe if the home grown talent doesn't flourish you are not going to progress enough that bringing in only one or two guys from outside will make the difference. Gusev was a nice addition once he got going but for whatever reason, the team was just mediocre this season. I don't advocate waiting forever but unless you can add a core guy it's just looking to add a Palms or Gusev who are great players but not great enough to pull the team out of the doldrums as I see it. Nico, Jack and a couple of other guys need to be better. I just don't see a way around it. MBW seems to have made that transition and I'm confident that other guys will start to do that as well. In two years at the TDL we may be ready to trade a first an a prospect to a cap strapped team for a nice complimentary player who can actually fit with what the team is doing. Maybe next year at the TDL they can trade a second and a prospect for a rental to help with a playoff push.

I agree with most of your post as well but the element that gets brushed aside in these debates is that bringing in talented players will actually help the overall mindset of the team and especially our rookies.

Being in a positive environment goes a long way in today’s game. Back then, players had to do their job and that’s about it but in today’s world, it just seems that everyone is more fragile mentally and emotionally. Being on a losing team can is mathematically eliminated come mid December will have it’s toll on players and the last thing I want is for Hischier, Bratt, Hughes, Blackwood, Severson, etc to have this "whatever" attitude when losing hockey games because they’ve been so used to it.

 

[My3Sons]

I agree with most of your post as well but the element that gets brushed aside in these debates is that bringing in talented players will actually help the overall mindset of the team and especially our rookies.

Being in a positive environment goes a long way in today’s game. Back then, players had to do their job and that’s about it but in today’s world, it just seems that everyone is more fragile mentally and emotionally. Being on a losing team can is mathematically eliminated come mid December will have it’s toll on players and the last thing I want is for Hischier, Bratt, Hughes, Blackwood, Severson, etc to have this "whatever" attitude when losing hockey games because they’ve been so used to it.

I think that is valid but it's tricky. Maybe had they been able to extend Hall it would be different. A happy wanting to win great player is a valuable teammate. There's always a bit of a question mark with a new guy. Maybe the team has to add a couple of more Zajac types to play in the bottom six to raise the level of play of the higher end young players by what they do in practice and by demanding more from them? Maybe you can import the professionalism and will to win without having to grossly overpay? Sure, you'd have to lose guys like Wood and maybe Zacha but I'd rather tinker with replacing them than Nico or Jack and you already have some vets like Palms and an older rookie in Gusev. If they could package Butcher with a non-core pick(s) or player(s) and get an upgrade for him I think that would be the kind of move that would make a difference. Not sure it's feasible.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

Look I just think (and its only my opinion) the owners were on board with Shero, BUT as time went along, and the team didnt improve (although all our rivals got better) and then Shero traded Hall away ( I really think the owners wanted Taylor signed long term) they soured real quick and when it rains it pours. So I now think they want the Devils to be more relevant and show the fans and the hockey community we're serious about winning, sooner rather than later. Also they noticed what Lou did with the Isle's and what the Flyers did last year and figure we can get better overnight. Again it's just my opinion, but I don't feel they have the patience to wait two or three years.

No doubt - we are all just guessing what we think will happen moving forward.and why Shero was fired. We discussed this when it came out. Friedman was told by an NHL executive before the "Summer of Shero" that the front office situation in NJ was "complicated" but he never followed up. It may have been sudden and had to due with other teams success but this report suggests it was something that evolved over time.
31 Thoughts: The fallout from bombshell New Jersey, Vegas firings - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Triumph]

Look I just think (and its only my opinion) the owners were on board with Shero, BUT as time went along, and the team didnt improve (although all our rivals got better) and then Shero traded Hall away ( I really think the owners wanted Taylor signed long term) they soured real quick and when it rains it pours. So I now think they want the Devils to be more relevant and show the fans and the hockey community we're serious about winning, sooner rather than later. Also they noticed what Lou did with the Isle's and what the Flyers did last year and figure we can get better overnight. Again it's just my opinion, but I don't feel they have the patience to wait two or three years.

Who knows where things stand given the limited season we're likely looking at later this year, but all else being equal I don't think they fired Shero because they were impatient - that's what the fear was right after they did it, but the team kept moving in the right direction. They let Fitzgerald move Coleman and Vatanen. Even if they flip that pick from the Coleman deal for a player at the draft, that still feels like a 'futures' move.

 

[The 29th Pick]

Who knows where things stand given the limited season we're likely looking at later this year, but all else being equal I don't think they fired Shero because they were impatient - that's what the fear was right after they did it, but the team kept moving in the right direction. They let Fitzgerald move Coleman and Vatanen. Even if they flip that pick from the Coleman deal for a player at the draft, that still feels like a 'futures' move.

yeah we'll have to wait and see, and now that the whole world has stopped turning, everyone has all kinds of theories I suppose, like they say, an idle mind is the Devils workshop !

 

[SYWTom]

I think what would be really nice is if ownership came out with a statement. With what they feel the direction is for the next 2-5 years. When will they compete.

ideally, you release this statement when announcing a new structure for the staff. Wouldn’t a nice united front of some highly sought after hockey minds be somewhat inspiring? Feel like right now it’s “well this is good enough for this draft” while really these picks will be the foundation for this next GMs era. Basically how the next set our fingerprints will be left on the team.

I pray that we see established coach and front office members come in. Gillis, Futa, Gallant, Laviolette. Also hope we can retain Paul Castron as he seems to be good at his job.