Devils 2019-20 team discussion (news and notes) - In limbo version

[TBF1972]

WTF are you talking about?

I’m certain you know this but I’m not the GM of the New Jersey Devils, so whatever proposal I write on a message board, good or bad, won’t have any effect on our team.

I’ll comment on deals that actually got approved by the league and moving 2nd round picks and an unproven prospect for a legit top#4 dman was a no brainer move to make. The biggest asset we gave up was cap space, which we still have a ton of.

If you want to wait until all our picks start to materialize, we’ll just be wasting way the prime years of our current youngsters... and then we’ll have to trade Hischier and Hughes because they won’t fit the timeline of the kids we draft this year or next year.

Your vision is a revolving rebuild that has no end and I don’t want that.

When do you actually expect the prime years of Hischier and Hughes to start? Next season? 2021/22? 2022/23? I would say the latest one is the earliest I could see both of them entered their prime years. As talented as Hughes is, his physical make-up makes it unlikely he hits his prime during his ELC is still running.

 

[TBF1972]

Agree 100%. Just being able to think a goalie could be a #1 at age 23 puts the Devils in a good spot. If there is a compliance type of buyout due to the COVID situation that would be ideal. I do not think a decent 1B would have signed here last year with Cory and Blackwood. This year I think one will be willing to sign. That should not be too difficult to upgrade. I wish I could say the same about the "D"!

New Jersey fans should hope, that there will be no compliance buyouts. Schneider was already relegated to the AHL this season. They could easily do this again or buy him out, if they don't want him as a backup in the NHL.
No compliance buyouts and a flat cap, will push half the league against the cap with little to no maneuvering room to sign there own FA or pursue others. The Devils could very quickly become attractive trade partners to unload unwanted contracts (with heavy sweeteners attached) from contenders or young, good RFA's (to not lose them for nothing) from teams in nowhere land or destination for UFAs, who can't find suitors with Cap room.

 

[TBF1972]

You posit what amounts to the worst case scenario. Sure, if the team still stinks in seven years then yes, you have to consider trading Hischier. If the team continues to be this bad for the next seven years the team would owe it to him to trade him to a better team. He'd have PTSD by then.

I think an alternative is that the team's draft picks start panning out. Younger and/or unproven players like Hughes, Smith, Boquist, Anderson, and this year's first round picks develop and are better, in some cases significantly than the players they replace and the team becomes good. Maybe not immediate cup contention good but at least moving in that direction. At that point, you can decide who is in your core and pay accordingly. A 28 year old Nico on a good team coming off a couple of solid playoff runs where he made a difference is a good signing even if it takes him into his 30s (assuming he is healthy when he signs). He's a heart and should guy and a hard worker and sets a good example based on publicly available media. Hopefully Hughes grows into that as well and it's easy to advocate for a long term signing for him at that point.

It just seems premature to me right now. There's no real defined core in place. Is MBW a fluke? Will Hughes break out? Will Nico develop more of an offensive flair? Will Smith replace Butcher and upgrade the second pair? Lots of questions that need to at least suggest answers before I'd be comfortable trading good assets for a borderline core player at 28-29 to a hefty 8 year deal (if OEL is the example). You make a good point, but the counterpoint, to me, isn't as black and white as your example suggests. Just my opinion, not a fact.

Will Smith? Don't act as if he could help this young team. OEL would be the better option.

 

[JimEIV]

I don't think it has to be perfect to meet your timeline but it is a realistic one. I also agree that ownership has sent me a message of intervention which I'm skeptical is a good approach to take.

Here would be my criteria for "mature perfectly" to achieve the timeline:

4. Having a pick(or more) this year that can become a contributor in two years
3. Produce at least 1 real Top 4 Dman in two years
2. Hischeir progress: producing more and overall contributing more than a glorified Zajac

And #1 will be the Hughes progression

All that goes well, we can be competitive in 2 or 3 years.

Even still...We need to hope that the next GM has a comprehensive vision for the team and a plan to achieve it...That was severely lacking in the previous administration.

 

[TBF1972]

I agree with most of your post as well but the element that gets brushed aside in these debates is that bringing in talented players will actually help the overall mindset of the team and especially our rookies.

And therefore the Devils had to trade Hall, this untalented stiff.

The beauty of team sports is the complexity. There are so many variables, that there is no simple recipe to success. What works in one place is a disaster in the next. Management, coaching staff, scouting, trainer and the roster etc. need to work to make a team a contender and sometimes only one little piece not fitting destroys the puzzle:
STL missed the PO in 2018 and were in last place, when they fired their coach the following season. The rest is history.
The Islanders lost Tavares in Free Agency and became a better team, just by hiring the right coaching staff.
This season MBW was the most reliable roster player. Next season he may be the reason the Devils will get the next shot at the lottery.

 

[TBF1972]

Who knows where things stand given the limited season we're likely looking at later this year, but all else being equal I don't think they fired Shero because they were impatient - that's what the fear was right after they did it, but the team kept moving in the right direction. They let Fitzgerald move Coleman and Vatanen. Even if they flip that pick from the Coleman deal for a player at the draft, that still feels like a 'futures' move.

I agree.

It seems ownership didn't mandate any more aggressiveness towards relevance by Fitz's the roster moves. They may simply didn't trust Shero to hire the next coach of their franchise.

 

[TBF1972]

Value of: - Oliver Ekman Larsson

 

[TrufleShufle]

Do you think any team in the league would take a gamble on Cory for half retention? Even for pennies?

It can't be that far fetched that some team out there would take a chance on him to be back up for half his salary. That would be the best financial situation for us as well.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

And therefore the Devils had to trade Hall, this untalented stiff.

The beauty of team sports is the complexity. There are so many variables, that there is no simple recipe to success. What works in one place is a disaster in the next. Management, coaching staff, scouting, trainer and the roster etc. need to work to make a team a contender and sometimes only one little piece not fitting destroys the puzzle:
STL missed the PO in 2018 and were in last place, when they fired their coach the following season. The rest is history.
The Islanders lost Tavares in Free Agency and became a better team, just by hiring the right coaching staff.
This season MBW was the most reliable roster player. Next season he may be the reason the Devils will get the next shot at the lottery.

As much talent as the guy has, Taylor Hall and his pissy attitude was a detriment to our team. He was our best player but he was also the anchor that sucked the life out of this team when the room was probably looking for some leadership, from our beat player.

I wasn’t in favour of resigning him and we got a premium package for a rental with a busted leg.

Like you said, the overall team chemistry is very important and when you have a winning mentality, it helps in a big way.

 

[The 29th Pick]

Do you think any team in the league would take a gamble on Cory for half retention? Even for pennies?

It can't be that far fetched that some team out there would take a chance on him to be back up for half his salary. That would be the best financial situation for us as well.

I doubt it unless under an emergency situation, I mean he did pass through waivers

 

[Zippy316]

Value of: - Oliver Ekman Larsson

Devils should definitely show some interest, but we shouldn't be giving up any of the higher end prospects.

These types of deals there has to be a serious comfort level for the team and management to take on a player like him with his term. If the team feels like he's a good fit long-term, something like Zacha + Butcher + Vancouver's first could make some sense for the Devils.

 

[Pitaya]

Why do people still think Butcher is a PPQB? Hell why do people think hes useful at all?

Id rather have Mueller and it isnt really close

 

[TrufleShufle]

I doubt it unless under an emergency situation, I mean he did pass through waivers

I don't think it is likely, but if he was to pass through waivers again, that would only help him in getting traded if it was possible. Especially with the half retention.

 

[Darkauron]

Why do people still think Butcher is a PPQB? Hell why do people think hes useful at all?

Id rather have Mueller and it isnt really close

Yeah I agree at this point. At least Mueller can skate and defend-ish

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Why do people still think Butcher is a PPQB? Hell why do people think hes useful at all?

Id rather have Mueller and it isnt really close

yikes.

Yeah lets just say we...disagree.

 

[JimEIV]

Why do people still think Butcher is a PPQB? Hell why do people think hes useful at all?

Id rather have Mueller and it isnt really close

I think Butcher is useless but I rather have him than Mueller...Mueller just isn't very smart. He is useless with the puck and gets lost in his own zone frequently when the puck is down low. He really doesn't do anything at all well. Butcher is just slow and weak.

 

[glenwo2]

New Jersey fans should hope, that there will be no compliance buyouts. Schneider was already relegated to the AHL this season. They could easily do this again or buy him out, if they don't want him as a backup in the NHL.
No compliance buyouts and a flat cap, will push half the league against the cap with little to no maneuvering room to sign there own FA or pursue others. The Devils could very quickly become attractive trade partners to unload unwanted contracts (with heavy sweeteners attached) from contenders or young, good RFA's (to not lose them for nothing) from teams in nowhere land or destination for UFAs, who can't find suitors with Cap room.

This would be ideal as just about any player they can get in this way would almost certainly be better than what we currently have (aside from the Nico/Hughes/Bratt trio). We may even get someone who can actually Defend(a defenseman). Gasp!

 

[Cheddabombs]

Why do people still think Butcher is a PPQB? Hell why do people think hes useful at all?

Id rather have Mueller and it isnt really close

This year Butcher was terrible on the powerplay. The two seasons before that he led our defensemen (who were regulars on the powerplay) in powerplay points/60 and powerplay GF/60. What's more indicative of how good he is as PPQB, his first two years or this year? I'm not sure, only time will tell really. But I think it's fair to give him another shot at it next year and see if he can bounce back.

 

[Nubmer6]

I think Butcher is useless but I rather have him than Mueller...Mueller just isn't very smart. He is useless with the puck and gets lost in his own zone frequently when the puck is down low. He really doesn't do anything at all well. Butcher is just slow and weak.

Not a huge Mueller fan, but in his defense, I think EVERYONE got lost with the puck down low in our defensive system.

 

[JimEIV]

Not a huge Mueller fan, but in his defense, I think EVERYONE got lost with the puck down low in our defensive system.

True. The system definitely was an issue... I just haven't seen anything he brings to the table, that coupled with a very slow decision making process, I don't see any use for Mueller.

 

[Pitaya]

True. The system definitely was an issue... I just haven't seen anything he brings to the table, that coupled with a very slow decision making process, I don't see any use for Mueller.

Mueller doesnt regularly get beat to pucks like Butcher does. Butcher putting up no points is a net negative. Mueller putting up no points is expected and average since hes better defensively

 

[Pitaya]

Will Butcher is such a poor skater that he was beat to a loose puck in the corner of our d zone OFF OF A FACE OFF. Yes, a winger beat our defenseman to a puck in the corner that hes standing next to. Multiple times in fact.

thats how f***ing slow and poor of a skater Will Butcher is.

Hes easily my most disliked Devil in years because he gets attention for doing absolutely nothing but shooting the puck towards the goalie’s chest in his rookie season and earning points off deflections and rebounds.

Regularly gets beat and hasnt even produced since his rookie year. Hes not an NHL defenseman IMO

 

[JimEIV]

This year Butcher was terrible on the powerplay. The two seasons before that he led our defensemen (who were regulars on the powerplay) in powerplay points/60 and powerplay GF/60. What's more indicative of how good he is as PPQB, his first two years or this year? I'm not sure, only time will tell really. But I think it's fair to give him another shot at it next year and see if he can bounce back.

The problem is he has to be protected/hidden 5v5. When he plays real situations he is exposed. His weakness along boards is exposed and his lack of foot speed is exposed regularly..,He can't be a top 4 Dman with his deficiencies..So you have to limit his 5v5 minutes and force an already weak D to absorb the minutes he can't handle.

In my opinion we don't really have a 25 minute a night all situation D-man....Sure you can ask Subban or Severson to do it...but the cracks will eventually show

 

[Nubmer6]

In my opinion we don't really have a 25 minute a night all situation D-man....Sure you can ask Subban or Severson to do it...but the cracks will eventually show

I think Subban and Severson can do it, but it's definitely harder for them if their defensive partners are barely replacement level.

As for Butcher, he had an off year, but I still view him as an NHL defender. The problem is that he doesn't have a slot as a PP specialist anymore. If we had any depth at all on our left side, I'd think we could get something for him from Montreal. He's pretty much exactly what they need as a stopgap until their LHD prospects are ready.

 

[JimEIV]

Mueller doesnt regularly get beat to pucks like Butcher does. Butcher putting up no points is a net negative. Mueller putting up no points is expected and average since hes better defensively

I don't disagree with anything you just said. I just don't think his defensively ability isn't very good and I don't think it makes up for the lack of other aspects that he just doesn't have. Maybe things change with a different system and coaching staff...But his decision making with the puck is so limit, I don't think a system change is going to mean much for him