Devils 2019-20 team discussion (news and notes) - In limbo version

[Call Me Al]

his slowness is really just shocking. if a puck gets by him at the point then it’s almost a guaranteed scoring chance the other way. when he said that the one thing he had to work on was his shot i was blown away, because his lack of speed is a huge liability

 

[JimEIV]

his slowness is really just shocking. if a puck gets by him at the point then it’s almost a guaranteed scoring chance the other way. when he said that the one thing he had to work on was his shot i was blown away, because his lack of speed is a huge liability

No doubt...
But he does have some good qualities...He sees the ice well and as the ability to make the first pass out of the zone and find open men pretty good. He makes the smart choices with and without the puck usually. Use his positioning to defend because he has to.

He gets in trouble in physical one on one battles and foot races.

If it's a question of who would you rather Mueller or Butcher: My feeling is Butcher has more desirable attributes...But his physical limitation neutralize them to great extent.

 

[Brodeur]

Do you think any team in the league would take a gamble on Cory for half retention? Even for pennies?

It can't be that far fetched that some team out there would take a chance on him to be back up for half his salary. That would be the best financial situation for us as well.

Goalie market is tough since most teams have a #1. Most clubs aren't going to want (and most can't fit) a backup making 3 million.

ANA: Gibson|Miller*|Stolarz
ARZ: Kuemper|Raanta
CGY: Rittich|Talbot*
EDM: Smith*|Koskinen
LAK: Quick|Petersen
SJS: Jones|Dell*|Melnichuk
VAN: Markstrom*|Demko
VGK: Fleury|Lehner*

CHI: Crawford*|Subban|Delia
COL: Grubauer|Francouz
DAL: Bishop|Khudobin*
MIN: Dubnyk|Stalock
NSH: Rinne|Saros
STL: Binnington|Allen|Husso
WPG: Hellebuyck|Brossoit*

BOS: Rask|Halak
BUF: Hutton|Ullmark
DET: Bernier|Howard*
FLO: Bobrovsky|Montembeault
MON: Price|Lindgren
OTT: Nilsson|Anderson*|Hogberg
TBL: Vasilevskiy|McElhinney
TOR: Andersen|Campbell

CAR: Mrazek|Reimer
CLB: Korpisalo|Merzlikins
NJD: Blackwood|Schneider
NYI: Varlamov|Greiss*|Sorokin?
NYR: Lundqvist|Shesterkin|Georgiev
PHI: Hart|Elliott*
PIT: Murray|Jarry|DeSmith
WSH: Holtby*|Samsonov|Copley

 

[GameSeven]

Ovi-Backstrom-Gartner-Carlson-Gonchar Holtby

vs.

Zach-Patty-MacLean-Stevens-Nieds Brodeur

 

[Zippy316]

The problem is he has to be protected/hidden 5v5. When he plays real situations he is exposed. His weakness along boards is exposed and his lack of foot speed is exposed regularly..,He can't be a top 4 Dman with his deficiencies..So you have to limit his 5v5 minutes and force an already weak D to absorb the minutes he can't handle.

In my opinion we don't really have a 25 minute a night all situation D-man....Sure you can ask Subban or Severson to do it...but the cracks will eventually show

Butcher needs a safe partner and a role as a PPQB. If you don't give him that, he isn't as effective. My opinion of Butcher is that he's good defensively, he knows what he has to do, he makes great reads, and positioning-wise he's pretty solid. The issue is him doing it with his lack of size and lack of speed at times. It's magnified even greater when his partner puts him in terrible situations which almost every defender we have on our roster does to each other.

The issue with the defense isn't Butcher. The issue is the lack of "safe" defenders. We need guys that can allow the skilled defenders we have to play their game and make the game easier on them. Mueller is that mold of defender, but he can't bring it on a consistent basis and he turns into a grenade handler too much defensively.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Goalie market is tough since most teams have a #1. Most clubs aren't going to want (and most can't fit) a backup making 3 million.

ANA: Gibson|Miller*|Stolarz
ARZ: Kuemper|Raanta
CGY: Rittich|Talbot*
EDM: Smith*|Koskinen
LAK: Quick|Petersen
SJS: Jones|Dell*|Melnichuk
VAN: Markstrom*|Demko
VGK: Fleury|Lehner*

CHI: Crawford*|Subban|Delia
COL: Grubauer|Francouz
DAL: Bishop|Khudobin*
MIN: Dubnyk|Stalock
NSH: Rinne|Saros
STL: Binnington|Allen|Husso
WPG: Hellebuyck|Brossoit*

BOS: Rask|Halak
BUF: Hutton|Ullmark
DET: Bernier|Howard*
FLO: Bobrovsky|Montembeault
MON: Price|Lindgren
OTT: Nilsson|Anderson*|Hogberg
TBL: Vasilevskiy|McElhinney
TOR: Andersen|Campbell

CAR: Mrazek|Reimer
CLB: Korpisalo|Merzlikins
NJD: Blackwood|Schneider
NYI: Varlamov|Greiss*|Sorokin?
NYR: Lundqvist|Shesterkin|Georgiev
PHI: Hart|Elliott*
PIT: Murray|Jarry|DeSmith
WSH: Holtby*|Samsonov|Copley

Fair enough, thanks for doing the leg work.

 

[Cheddabombs]

The problem is he has to be protected/hidden 5v5. When he plays real situations he is exposed. His weakness along boards is exposed and his lack of foot speed is exposed regularly..,He can't be a top 4 Dman with his deficiencies..So you have to limit his 5v5 minutes and force an already weak D to absorb the minutes he can't handle.

In my opinion we don't really have a 25 minute a night all situation D-man....Sure you can ask Subban or Severson to do it...but the cracks will eventually show

I didn't say anything about his 5 on 5 play, I was just responding to the point about him being a powerplay QB. I agree, he needs to be sheltered and isn't that good defensively - his foot speed is an issue. I said it on a thread on the trade board I think but until Vatanen was traded I was on board with moving Butcher. He was redundant and, maybe before this year, could've been dealt for a decent return I think. But now with Vatanen gone our left side is currently Claesson, Mermis and Mueller with Smith waiting in the wings but he'd still be a rookie dman. Unless the left side gets a few big additions this summer we shouldn't move on from Butcher, and even if it does we should wait to see if he bounces back before selling low.

 

[JimEIV]

Ovi-Backstrom-Gartner-Carlson-Gonchar Holtby

vs.

Zach-Patty-MacLean-Stevens-Nieds Brodeur

Oh my goodness I would die to have seen a prime Stevens vs a prime Ovechkin go at it in a 7 game series. That would be a homeric tale.

 

[Devils731]

Oh my goodness I would die to have seen a prime Stevens vs a prime Ovechkin go at it in a 7 game series. That would be a homeric tale.

They definitely would have had a cross checking contest to see who could take more pain.

 

[Call Me Al]

No doubt...
But he does have some good qualities...He sees the ice well and as the ability to make the first pass out of the zone and find open men pretty good. He makes the smart choices with and without the puck usually. Use his positioning to defend because he has to.

He gets in trouble in physical one on one battles and foot races.

If it's a question of who would you rather Mueller or Butcher: My feeling is Butcher has more desirable attributes...But his physical limitation neutralize them to great extent.

i'd like to see them with a different coach. if mueller had an offensive minded partner and a simplified d system i think he could be way more effective. i have trouble giving an honest assessment of anyone on the team over the past couple seasons honestly, but especially defensemen. It's hard to argue that Hynes was able to get the best out of anyone except for one season of taylor hall.

 

[Devils731]

i'd like to see them with a different coach. if mueller had an offensive minded partner and a simplified d system i think he could be way more effective. i have trouble giving an honest assessment of anyone on the team over the past couple seasons honestly, but especially defensemen. It's hard to argue that Hynes was able to get the best out of anyone except for one season of taylor hall.

That’s probably the biggest reason letting Nas interim coach was a letdown. Nas continued the same basic system with done tweaks so it’s hard to tell which players stink and which players need a better system.

Bing got better almost instantly after ditching the Hynes/Nas system. The players looked confused on the ice and quotes after the fact confirmed players were confused.

I’d love to see Mueller and Butcher work in a simpler system that asked for less movement and switching. I think they’d both look improved; I just don’t know by how much.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

the problem with Mueller is he literally has no idea what to do when he has the puck

You cannot be a regular DMan and have no idea how to move the puck. And if you are, your defending better be Scott Stevens level and we all know that isn't the case.

 

[Call Me Al]

That’s probably the biggest reason letting Nas interim coach was a letdown. Nas continued the same basic system with done tweaks so it’s hard to tell which players stink and which players need a better system.

Bing got better almost instantly after ditching the Hynes/Nas system. The players looked confused on the ice and quotes after the fact confirmed players were confused.

I’d love to see Mueller and Butcher work in a simpler system that asked for less movement and switching. I think they’d both look improved; I just don’t know by how much.

he simplified it a little bit and the team was much better as a result. can't wait to see them with an experienced coach

 

[Bleedred]

I don’t understand the complaining about how our defense sucks, then wanting to keep someone like Mueller.

We have to clear some of these guys out and Mueller would be one of them.

 

[JimEIV]

I don’t understand the complaining about how our defense sucks, then wanting to keep someone like Mueller.

We have to clear some of these guys out and Mueller would be one of them.

I agree. But we have a lot of holes that need to be filled... from my perspective we only have two real Dmen in Subban and Severson... it's hard to imagine anyone currently in this organization playing 16 to 18 minutes a night 5v5 reliably? Losing Greene and Vatanen also means our penalty killers are seriously lacking. We almost certainly are going to have a makeshift D next year. So I see it as which patchwork defender is going to give us the most... because at least one or two are going to have to play a larger role than they are really capable of.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

For those who are saying that Vince Dunn would be a welcomed addition, what exactly is he bringing that Butcher, Subban, Severson or Smith won’t bring?

To me, he’s just another soft offensive minded dman but apparently, I’m dead wrong. Can someone give me their scouting report on Dunn?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

well for one he would instantly be our best skating DMan

I Also would not classify him as "soft"

and thirdly, that was just an example that I gave on the OEL thread. We don't need to harp on one player. The point is trading Ty Smith AND a 1st round pick for a soon to be 29 year old OEL is not a move we should even be considering.

 

[RSeen]

For those who are saying that Vince Dunn would be a welcomed addition, what exactly is he bringing that Butcher, Subban, Severson or Smith won’t bring?

To me, he’s just another soft offensive minded dman but apparently, I’m dead wrong. Can someone give me their scouting report on Dunn?

Dunn is a player who plays 3rd pair minutes and crushes it...i.e., does what Butcher does.

 

[The 29th Pick]

I've got some bad news for you guys, I checked the rosters of other teams and their left D-men (esp those FA this summer) and its slim pickens, it's like finding a cy young pitcher for your baseball team during the off season. Maybe via a trade we can upgrade but we'll have to pay handsomely.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

well for one he would instantly be our best skating DMan

I Also would not classify him as "soft"

and thirdly, that was just an example that I gave on the OEL thread. We don't need to harp on one player. The point is trading Ty Smith AND a 1st round pick for a soon to be 29 year old OEL is not a move we should even be considering.

He can be the best skating dmen in the league, we don’t a figure skater, we need a guy who can log top line minutes and help stabilize the pair that will include either Subban or Severson.

Giving up the 17th overall pick for a smooth skating Will Butcher seems like a bigger mistake to me, but since he’s 23, one would think that it probably pushes the needle in your favour.

BTW, I don’t specifically want OEL. I want a top line pairing dman and he was probably the most realistic option out there. If someone else fits that criteria, I’d be willing to move the same package for that type of player as well.

Ty Smith isn’t the next coming of Christ and as good as his stats might be in juniors, he’s no lock to be as dominant at the NHL level.

 

[Billdo]

Our defense going into the 2020-21 season looks to be even worse than what we had going into this season unless they make a relatively huge move AND Smith hits in a Calder level way.

 

[JrFischer54]

I love that we are still discussing picks from almost 10 years ago.

yeah but guess what that’s what msg boards are for. People to talk about what they want. If people don’t find it interesting they will move on. If others don’t find it interesting then don’t read it or comment

 

[JrFischer54]

Waiting for our magic beans to flourish is the best possible outcome, it’s an ideal scenario and there’s no question about it but it’s also the slowest way to figuring out where you’re going as an organization.

If we have to wait for Smith, Boqvist, Foote, Bahl as well as the 6th, 10th ans 17th overall pick to prove themselves, we’ll be waisting the prime years of our former bluechip prospects as well as the core guys we have at the moment in Palmieri, Subban and Severson (who i don’t really consider as a core player but nevertheless, he’s one of our better dman).

I fully understand that we can’t move a premium asset for a quick fix, like what Lou did with Corey, but at the same time you have to groom the current young studs you have on your team. I’m pretty certain the guys I mentioned as well as Hischier, Bratt, Hughes, etc don’t give two licks about waiting for a kid that was 2 years ago. I’m certain they’re excited about the future but I’d be willing to bet anything that they would rather play meaningful games, even if it means possibly missing the playoffs by the skin of their teeth.

How many more beatings can Hischier take before he starts to sour on us? Every year he’s been here has been disastrous, outside of his rookie year. At some point, management has to show their players that it won’t be in a forever rebuild.

Shero took a gamble on Grabner and unfortunately for us, he sucked as a member of the Devils. The upside to that move is that it showed trust to the rest of that locker room and they went on a epic run to make the playoffs by a single point. Is that trade the main reason why we had the run we did, absolutely not but I’d be willing to bet that it was a key part of it, yes.

I’m a firm believer that building from within is the only way to succeed but at the same time, you don’t need a homegrown team of 22 players on your roster.

the problem with the bolded part is that those players and picks are suppose to be players playing big roles big mins for this team in the future so yeah we have to wait for them to develop otherwise this team isn’t going anywhere with just jack and nico.

your talking about having a problem waiting for a top pair d man a top 4 d man and two top 6 wingers not to mention two top 10 picks this year? Ouch

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

the problem with the bolded part is that those players and picks are suppose to be players playing big roles big mins for this team in the future so yeah we have to wait for them to develop otherwise this team isn’t going anywhere with just jack and nico.

your talking about having a problem waiting for a top pair d man a top 4 d man and two top 6 wingers not to mention two top 10 picks this year? Ouch

I don’t know what your point is with this post. We are going to have to wait for these kids to flourish, it won’t happen overnight but at the same time, are we supposed to not make any moves to improve our current team in the meantime?

The players I listed aren’t going to be making an impact on our team for the next 3 to 4 years, at the earliest? If we’re going to stay status quo and not try to bolster our lineup and help out guys like Hischier, Hughes, Bratt, Zacha, Severson and Blackwood during that time... I don’t see the point in resigning Palmieri since he’ll be in his mid 30’s when we’ll have a decent roster.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

He can be the best skating dmen in the league, we don’t a figure skater, we need a guy who can log top line minutes and help stabilize the pair that will include either Subban or Severson.

Giving up the 17th overall pick for a smooth skating Will Butcher seems like a bigger mistake to me, but since he’s 23, one would think that it probably pushes the needle in your favour.

BTW, I don’t specifically want OEL. I want a top line pairing dman and he was probably the most realistic option out there. If someone else fits that criteria, I’d be willing to move the same package for that type of player as well.

Ty Smith isn’t the next coming of Christ and as good as his stats might be in juniors, he’s no lock to be as dominant at the NHL level.

What’s with your fixation on trading Smith?

With our left side looking the way it is, it would be asinine to trade our best LHD prospect—even if it’s for an LHD upgrade.

There are plenty of other package permutations we can draw up that involve acquiring an LHD upgrade, and NOT dealing away Ty Smith. That way, we... address an organizational weakness? Instead of robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Hell, find a team with a decent Swedish footprint and dangle Boqvist + 17OA. God knows we aren’t short on wingers. There are many ways to do this, and you’re fixated on the least sensical.