Devils 2018-19 team discussion (player news and notes) - offseason part V

[Billdo]

Quoting myself from the Zacha thread, it bears repeating:

I'm by no means worried about Zacha but the comparisons to effective players who are succeeding don't mean much to me generally speaking. These guys had big numbers in juniors and stuff that Zacha never really had. Having said that, I am not worried about him and think he'll take another step forward this year and I'll still say he pots 20 this year.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Zacha's ES production improved greatly last year. His defensive play and PK ability improved greatly last year.

the people who say "he needs to show something" aren't paying attention. Of course we want him to produce more offense overall, and if he got consistent PP time he probably would. The people implying a (just turned) 21 year old is basically done developing are out to lunch.

 

[Better Call Sal]

I'm by no means worried about Zacha but the comparisons to effective players who are succeeding don't mean much to me generally speaking. These guys had big numbers in juniors and stuff that Zacha never really had. Having said that, I am not worried about him and think he'll take another step forward this year and I'll still say he pots 20 this year.

And that's perfectly fine. My point is simply that it is too soon to say whether or not he can or cannot become the player we hope he can be. But you and I agree there. Also, it's still important to recognize that Zacha outproduced them in PPG. In Nino's case, that was largely the Islanders completely boning up his development but it's something that should be noted in Zacha's favor.

He's still only 21, there's no reason to believe that he can't get there eventually. Just because he didn't take the league by storm in his first 2 full years doesn't mean he's incapable of putting it together.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Out of that list, who would you decline to acquire in a deal for PZ?

I would not trade him for Wayne Simmonds

I would not trade him for Okposo

I would not trade him for Puljujarvi

not to mention, a players trade value is a much different discussion than the one we're having.

 

[zharkenby]

Read the post above, there are examples of players who have flourished beyond their first two seasons. Zacha outproduced both those players in his first 2 seasons (or in Niederreiter's case, until the Islanders gave up on him, wink wink).

Also, what has Puljujarvi done with less PPG production that you'd take him in a heartbeat over Zacha? A winger over a center, no less?

All I'm saying is the lack of patience by some with Zacha is unfair. Sure, it's entirely possible that you're right in the end and he never becomes a strong point producer. However it is still too soon to make proclamations of what is realistic and unrealistic.

I get what you’re saying man. It’s not a patience thing for me. I’ve watched the kid go out and make terrible low IQ plays over and over again. Sure it can be fixed, but he made more mistakes last year than his rookie year. Could be an effort thing, not sure, but he didn’t make enough strides offensively for me to be ok with the amount of mental errors/ empty net misses he had last year. He was literally a younger josefson, which as you all know is really bad.

We’ll see what he can do next year, but I’m not holding out a lot of hope for him.
McLeod doesn’t seem to have a very high ceiling offensively either

 

[NJDevs26]

If you’re goung to say there weren’t glaring similarities (having chances created for him and missing open nets) you weren’t watching.

Again, I don’t know why you get so offended. Pavel is not a good nhl player right now.

There’s a big difference between saying he isn’t a good player and saying definitively he ‘never’ will be.

 

[zharkenby]

There’s a big difference between saying he isn’t a good player and saying he ‘never’ will be.

I’m not saying that, I just see his ceiling as a 50p two way C. That’s fine, it’s just not what any of us had hoped for.

 

[zharkenby]

Also josefsons first 69 Games: 19 points
Pavel zacha this year (69 games): 25 points

Josefson showed flashes, and ended up regressing. Not impossible being that zacha has also shown nothing aside from flashes. You have a way of making reasonable statements look absurd by getting really pissed off every time someone disagrees with one of your opinions.

Edit: Chances you’re the guy who wore a zacha Sarnia sting jersey to a playoff game this year?

 

[Oneiro]

With the amount of information these players have, Scheifele/Couturier-style explosions will be more common. Not saying PZ will do that (probably won't), but there's still a long way to go in his career. His achievements are overstated, and yes, relative to those picked around him, he is thus far a disappointment. But he didn't f*** up the 2C slot in the slightest.

 

[zharkenby]

Again, they started their respective careers at a very similar pace...... I just provided you with that and you fail to even acknowledge it. And just to prepare for your “ohhh it’s just points argument”
I mean in terms of play as wel. Both known as 2 way guys (except josefson was actually serviceable on the PK) who consistently misss chances others create for them. Yes obviously zacha has more in his arsenal, but the way their careers began is very similar as of now.

 

[NJDevs26]

Back to your corners everyone, if you can't debate without taking personal jabs then you won't be allowed to debate at all in this thread.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Again, they started their respective careers at a very similar pace...... I just provided you with that and you fail to even acknowledge it. And just to prepare for your “ohhh it’s just points argument”
I mean in terms of play as wel. Both known as 2 way guys (except josefson was actually serviceable on the PK) who consistently misss chances others create for them. Yes obviously zacha has more in his arsenal, but the way their careers began is very similar as of now.

so you are implying that Zacha is not even serviceable on the PK? Wasn't; there an article recently that said he was one of the better PKers in the entire league.....?

edit:
HockeyBuzz.com - Todd Cordell - Pavel Zacha has been one of the NHL's best penalty killers

their careers are not similar. Just stop. Zacha nearly has as many points as Jake does in EIGHT SEASONS. Like I said, stop. You are making yourself look bad.

 

[NJDevs26]

I’m not saying that, I just see his ceiling as a 50p two way C. That’s fine, it’s just not what any of us had hoped for.

You said earlier in this thread he'll never develop as an offensive guy which in itself is hyperbole. 50 points is plenty for a top six forward, that's an above average offensive player. Your definition of offensive guy seems to be pretty narrow (i.e. top first-liner)

 

[zharkenby]

so you are implying that Zacha is not even serviceable on the PK? Wasn't; there an article recently that said he was one of the better PKers in the entire league.....?

edit:
HockeyBuzz.com - Todd Cordell - Pavel Zacha has been one of the NHL's best penalty killers

their careers are not similar. Just stop. Zacha nearly has as many points as Jake does in EIGHT SEASONS. Like I said, stop. You are making yourself look bad.

I’m referring to both of their first 2 seasons man... pretty simple concept to grasp. It’s comparable, you’re just stubborn.

Seriously, were You the dude who wore a sting jersey to a devils playoff game?

 

[zharkenby]

You said earlier in this thread he'll never develop as an offensive guy which in itself is hyperbole. 50 points is plenty for a top six forward, that's an above average offensive player. Your definition of offensive guy seems to be pretty narrow (i.e. top first-liner)

Y’all can keep cherry picking... won’t change anything. What I’m trying (thought it was pretty clear) to say is that he will never be what we drafted him to be. I was fully on board when we drafted him too, I’m accepting that I was incorrect. It is to be seen what he tops out as, but their isn’t a very high ceiling there anymore IMO.

 

[bobilly45]

Cory is a ? coming back from surgery

He mentioned hes been dealing with the issue for over a year.... maybe that's a cover for his poor performance last 2 years, maybe not. If not, he did more damage to his body since he was prob doing different movements to get the result he would've normally got haven not been injured.
I doubt he plays before mid nov.

 

[MartyOwns]

i’m guessing cory is back in december, and he’ll nab his first win 87 days later

 

[Wingman77]

Relating back to the Stevens defense philosophy discussion, I had seen this video a few times over the years and did not have the time to look for it earlier, however this is from almost 20 years ago when he was still a player and further shows his astuteness of the position. He also gives due credit to Robinson and Lemaire specifically for teaching him some of these ways.

One part that relates to some of the issues we have had the last year or two is when he and JD are discussing the back being to the play. How many times we have seen this from our defensemen simply not facing the shot or the play consistently enough before the puck eventually goes in has been a little too often.

 

[MadDevil]

First Nico is going to be disappointing if he is "only" Elias, and now Zacha is going to be disappointing if he's "only" a 50 point two way center. Were some people expecting them to be Crosby and Malkin?

 

[Nubmer6]

Relating back to the Stevens defense philosophy discussion, I had seen this video a few times over the years and did not have the time to look for it earlier, however this is from almost 20 years ago when he was still a player and further shows his astuteness of the position. He also gives due credit to Robinson and Lemaire specifically for teaching him some of these ways.

One part that relates to some of the issues we have had the last year or two is when he and JD are discussing the back being to the play. How many times we have seen this from our defensemen simply not facing the shot or the play consistently enough before the puck eventually goes in has been a little too often.

I remembered that clip. Particularly the part about keeping his elbow bent. Thought that was kinda sneaky.

 

[devilsblood]

Also josefsons first 69 Games: 19 points
Pavel zacha this year (69 games): 25 points

Josefson showed flashes, and ended up regressing. Not impossible being that zacha has also shown nothing aside from flashes. You have a way of making reasonable statements look absurd by getting really pissed off every time someone disagrees with one of your opinions.

Edit: Chances you’re the guy who wore a zacha Sarnia sting jersey to a playoff game this year?

Zacha has played 140 games and has 51 points.

In JJ's first 238 games he had 50.

The only thing I gain from comparing JJ to Zacha is that Zacha is better. Maybe that is not saying much, but I didn't make the comparison.

 

[NJDevs26]

Y’all can keep cherry picking... won’t change anything. What I’m trying (thought it was pretty clear) to say is that he will never be what we drafted him to be. I was fully on board when we drafted him too, I’m accepting that I was incorrect. It is to be seen what he tops out as, but their isn’t a very high ceiling there anymore IMO.

And applying 'never' to a player who was 20 for almost all of the season (he didn't turn 21 till April) is a bit irresponsible.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

 

[MadDevil]

Niederreiter had 39 points in his first 145 games. Then as a 22 year old he scored 24 goals and 37 points, followed by 20 goals and 43 points, then 25 goals and 57 points. Scheifele went from 34 points as a 20 year old to 61 points as a 22 year old, to 82 points the following season. Couturier didn't break 40 points until he was 25. Players don't all develop at the same rate. Writing Zacha, or McLeod, or anybody off before they're 22 is idiocy. I mean, Zacha has been legally able to drink in this country since like April, so maybe give the kid a little more time to figure things out?

 

[HischierSeDgewOrk]

Niederreiter had 39 points in his first 145 games. Then as a 22 year old he scored 24 goals and 37 points, followed by 20 goals and 43 points, then 25 goals and 57 points. Scheifele went from 34 points as a 20 year old to 61 points as a 22 year old, to 82 points the following season. Couturier didn't break 40 points until he was 25. Players don't all develop at the same rate. Writing Zacha, or McLeod, or anybody off before they're 22 is idiocy. I mean, Zacha has been legally able to drink in this country since like April, so maybe give the kid a little more time to figure things out?

Stop making sense. A player is clearly a bust if he doesn't break out by 21.