Devils 2018-19 team discussion (player news and notes) - offseason part V

[billingtons ghost]

Even not counting last season, he still could play good 4th line minutes and not the 5-6 a game that facepunchers would get and he still put up good 4th line production.

Playing next to Ovechkin and Kuznetsov on the first line. Cam might have netted 10 with those guys too.

 

[Triumph]

This may be true - but certainly his value was two fold:
1. energy by crashing into things/people and potentially hurting them (or taking them off their game)
2. making it so others didn't have to fight, and if someone took liberties, he'd step up.

The thing is that 1 basically cancels out 2 in some regards, besides the injuring potential - Janssen is not acting as a deterrent here; his presence basically starts fights and gets the opponents theoretically running at him or at other players on his team. Now this might get the other team off their game for sure, but Janssen's presence on the ice as a sub-AHL level player already had Janssen's team 'off their game' whenever he steps on for a shift. Even against other 4th lines, he got destroyed.

I think when we get into a heated series with the Flyers in the near future, (and you know it is coming) - it will be vitally important to have an answer when Coutourier uses his stick to remove some of Nico's teeth.

We'll never agree on this, but the way it would work in the old days (at least in the late 90s-00s) is that if Couturier removed Nico's teeth, then the two goons on the teams would have a fight at some point. It's always been a player's choice to choose whether or not he fights - Bobby Holik started all kinds of shit on the ice, he was a physical player and he was a dirty player, but he almost never fought. Claude Lemieux rarely fought.

So there is no answer for that for Couturier and there never was - if he chose to answer the bell, great, but most star players don't and never did. At best they might fight with the other star player.

 

[billingtons ghost]

We'll never agree on this, but the way it would work in the old days (at least in the late 90s-00s) is that if Couturier removed Nico's teeth, then the two goons on the teams would have a fight at some point. It's always been a player's choice to choose whether or not he fights - Bobby Holik started all kinds of **** on the ice, he was a physical player and he was a dirty player, but he almost never fought. Claude Lemieux rarely fought.

So there is no answer for that for Couturier and there never was - if he chose to answer the bell, great, but most star players don't and never did. At best they might fight with the other star player.

The bolded was simply because of the presence of someone else who could. If someone came after them, Dano, Stevens, McKay, Peluso et al would step in. It exponentially increased their effectiveness as players.

If you think we can get by in the playoffs without an edge on this team, then you weren't watching the Tampa Bay series last year and our exit from the playoffs.

I'm not saying this team needs Cam Jansson, but I'm saying that the running narrative that 'enforcers and fighting are no longer a part of today's NHL and won't be going forward' is simply not as true as some would have it.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Tampa Bay beat us because they were a better team than us

They didn't beat us because they had more of an 'edge'

 

[billingtons ghost]

Tampa Bay beat us because they were a better team than us

They didn't beat us because they had more of an 'edge'

But then why did a 'better' team goon it up like they did.

You can't say that they simply skated circles around us. My expectations going in was that would be the case - that their superior firepower would be evident...not that they would pound the crap out of us and send Vatanan and others to the dressing room.

In a pure Euro-style game, we could almost hang with their speed where many other teams couldn't; and have a chance in a horse race with a couple of bounces.

The physicality they introduced to the series may have not been THE difference, but it played a big role.

 

[Triumph]

I'm not saying this team needs Cam Jansson, but I'm saying that the running narrative that 'enforcers and fighting are no longer a part of today's NHL and won't be going forward' is simply not as true as some would have it.

It is true, though. Because enforcers aren't being groomed at the OHL level, they're not appearing much at the AHL level either - no one in the AHL had over 200 PIMs last season. This is the future for the NHL, and it's already here.

There are still physical players, for sure. But the day is coming when fighting is outright banned in junior, and then it will come for the AHL, and then the NHL too. This doesn't remove fighting entirely of course - the KHL still has fights - but it removes thinking about it as any kind of strategy.

 

[Triumph]

But then why did a 'better' team goon it up like they did.

You can't say that they simply skated circles around us. My expectations going in was that would be the case - that their superior firepower would be evident...not that they would pound the crap out of us and send Vatanan and others to the dressing room.

In a pure Euro-style game, we could almost hang with their speed where many other teams couldn't; and have a chance in a horse race with a couple of bounces.

The physicality they introduced to the series may have not been THE difference, but it played a big role.

They didn't 'goon it up' - they played physical hockey. Hedman speared Nico in the groin once, I guess, and people here reacted as if that hasn't happened before in hockey ever. Kucherov laid a big hit on Vatanen. Everyone also pretended like an enforcer would've made a difference here. But the Devils got outplayed more than they got outphysicaled - do I think the Devils need to be stronger as a team, sure, but I don't think they should make personnel changes based on that.

 

[Billdo]

You haven't needed one for 5-6 years because we haven't been in the playoffs. If you've been watching the evolution, it's been turning nastier, cheaper and more violent. The first few rounds of the playoffs were a bloodbath.

I'm not saying that 'goons' are ever necessary, nor that 'enforcers' play a role. But 4th line guys who bring energy and make defensemen cringe and most importantly can make it so that guys like Hall and Nico don't have to fight are valuable.

How much did Tom Wilson sign that ridiculous contract for?
Why did Reaves demand any price at all on the trade market?

Tom Wilson, Ryan Reaves have perplexing presence at Stanley Cup final

If Wood keeps one guy from going on the DL because he steps in, he's proved his value. When we get to the playoffs and long series, it'll become more important to our team.

Yeah but Cam was never half the hockey player Wilson is. Heck he's not even close to being able to play like Reeves.

 

[Davegarri]

You haven't needed one for 5-6 years because we haven't been in the playoffs. If you've been watching the evolution, it's been turning nastier, cheaper and more violent. The first few rounds of the playoffs were a bloodbath.

I'm not saying that 'goons' are ever necessary, nor that 'enforcers' play a role. But 4th line guys who bring energy and make defensemen cringe and most importantly can make it so that guys like Hall and Nico don't have to fight are valuable.

How much did Tom Wilson sign that ridiculous contract for?
Why did Reaves demand any price at all on the trade market?

Tom Wilson, Ryan Reaves have perplexing presence at Stanley Cup final

If Wood keeps one guy from going on the DL because he steps in, he's proved his value. When we get to the playoffs and long series, it'll become more important to our team.

This I agree with. Wilson and Reaves are not straight up goons of old. They are just big physical players that can still play hockey.

Janssen was bad at just about everything other than hitting people and punching people's faces in. Wilson and Reaves can still do that.

We were starting to get a player like the two above, with perhaps more skill, in Miles Wood, but then he turned invisible after his suspension. We need his mojo back.

That being said, Wilson and Reaves' contracts were, still are, and always will be awful

 

[Davegarri]

Tampa Bay beat us because they were a better team than us

They didn't beat us because they had more of an 'edge'

Ehhhhh debatable.

They're definitely the better team and probably would have won no matter what, but we played so scared it was embarrassing. They knocked the crap out of everyone and that took our guys heads right out of it.

 

[njdevils1982]

oh baby

gotta say, the zajac layup assist still amazes me

cant find it right now but do you remember the long distance aerial pass he gave parise from the right defensive circle all the way to the opposite blue line to spring parise for a goal vs the pens?

it was a thing of beauty

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

cant find it right now but do you remember the long distance aerial pass he gave parise from the right defensive circle all the way to the opposite blue line to spring parise for a goal vs the pens?

it was a thing of beauty

is this what you're talking about

 

[njdevils1982]

is this what you're talking about

haha nice

no.... but i did find it

 

[Missionhockey]

Tampa Bay beat us because they were a better team than us

They didn't beat us because they had more of an 'edge'

Why can't it be both?

 

[zharkenby]

haha nice

no.... but i did find it

Damn. Parises relevance as an nhl player really dipped when he left our organization. Shame for both him and the devils, he didn’t make the right choice IMO

 

[MartyOwns]

iirc lou offered parise the same contract he got in minnesota. can you imagine STILL being saddled with that for another 7 years? good lord

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

iirc lou offered parise the same contract he got in minnesota. can you imagine STILL being saddled with that for another 7 years? good lord

I don't think thats true whatsoever

 

[Edmonton East]

Why can't it be both?

It's almost like some fans don't realize the Devs were arguably the worst team in the league at clearing the crease last year....

Or maybe they just don't think that's a problem. That must be the case, since I continue to see several people on here constantly suggest we acquire another sub 6ft dman (which would give us 4 opening might). While 80% of the board shits on Santini.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

"playing with an edge" doesn't really have much to do with "clearing the crease"

they are 2 entirely different skillsets