GDT: Detroit Red Wings at Ottawa Senators - 2PM - TSN5/RDS - God Eftermiddag Vingar!

[Silky Johnson]

While the team has found ways to win lately which is great. Good teams find ways to win when they arent playing their best. However it is a little frightening watching this teams blue line play and D zone. They aren't a discipline team unfortunately. They play hard, work hard but dont work smart. I hope they can clean it up and get the 2 points Saturday and come home.

Agree. What concerns me is that the individual players are not bad, and its not like they have forgotten to play.

The D zone coverage isn't great but I would be as big a problem if we could exit the zone or win 50-50 battles. Even Jake was having zone exit problem yesterday which makes me think its systematic. Lanes were not there. It was very evident live.

We need a couple of affordable, defensively responsible RD's who can win a 50/50 battle to compliment our elite puck movers. This d-corps goes from bottom 10 to top 10 with the addition of a couple non flashy signings and a plan.

 

[GCK]

Agree. What concerns me is that the individual players are not bad, and its not like they have forgotten to play.

The D zone coverage isn't great but I would be as big a problem if we could exit the zone or win 50-50 battles. Even Jake was having zone exit problem yesterday which makes me think its systematic. Lanes were not there. It was very evident live.

We need a couple of affordable, defensively responsible RD's who can win a 50/50 battle to compliment our elite puck movers. This d-corps goes from bottom 10 to top 10 with the addition of a couple non flashy signings and a plan.

I think the breakout issues are due to guys breaking down defensively and not where they should be when we recover the puck. If you go back and watch some of our early games the breakout was often clean because our defensive structure was good.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I think the breakout issues are due to guys breaking down defensively and not where they should be when we recover the puck. If you go back and watch some of our early games the breakout was often clean because our defensive structure was good.

Either way, I think it is significantly a structure issue.

 

[Loach]

Anybody have the game saved?

 

[Flamingo]

Anybody have the game saved?

Stu.

 

[bert]

The most frustrating part of their play is its simple things they struggle with. When the forwards are tracking back they don’t sort out who to pressure which leads to the D giving up the blue line. In zone, rather than try to cover for someone else just do your job. So much of this teams issues are trying to cover for a single players missed assignment leading to a chain reaction of poor decisions.

Bingo, that and just the discipline to make the smart decision at either blue line. And for the D to hold the blue, they give it up so easily. Zub's gap control here is amazing but the rest of the D core really struggle. But I think that falls in line with what you are talking about. You cant collectively hold the blue as a group if you dont trust your teammate to make the right decision. Too many individual efforts on both sides of the puck. These types of decisions arent complicated ones, they are simple decisions that should be second nature.

 

[bert]

Agree. What concerns me is that the individual players are not bad, and its not like they have forgotten to play.

The D zone coverage isn't great but I would be as big a problem if we could exit the zone or win 50-50 battles. Even Jake was having zone exit problem yesterday which makes me think its systematic. Lanes were not there. It was very evident live.

We need a couple of affordable, defensively responsible RD's who can win a 50/50 battle to compliment our elite puck movers. This d-corps goes from bottom 10 to top 10 with the addition of a couple non flashy signings and a plan.

I think Detroit is a very disciplined well coached team. They like Montreal, Philly all play as more than a sum of their parts. You can see the buy in, I think Lalonde is a pretty great coach. He has had the luxury of playing under some other great coachs. Thats why Ottawa didnt have alot of outlet passes. Speaking of holding blue lines they do it well.

As for your last sentence, JBD is turning into one, not a top 4 one but he can play on the 3rd pairing. Been very encouraged by his development.

However you are right they need one badly basically another Zub. There is a very short list of this type of player.

Zub, Carlo, Roy, Tanev, Larsson, Cernak, Andersson, Manson, Demelo

Id be doing anything in my power to get one.

 

[Flamingo]

Anybody have the game saved?

Seriously, though, I have the game PVR'ed up until a minute or two into overtime.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I think Detroit is a very disciplined well coached team. They like Montreal, Philly all play as more than a sum of their parts. You can see the buy in, I think Lalonde is a pretty great coach. He has had the luxury of playing under some other great coachs. Thats why Ottawa didnt have alot of outlet passes. Speaking of holding blue lines they do it well.

3-4-2 in their last 9 games, which in pts% puts them on par with Edmonton and Chicago.
5.4% PP, which is last in the league in that time. 2.7% net PP, also last in the league.
77.1% PK, 21st in the league. 77.1% net PK, 23rd in the league.
40 penalties taken, T9th worst in the league.
25GF, which is 27th in the league. 34GA, T8th worst in the league.
3GF in the 1st period, last in the league.
13GA in P1, T5th worst.
-9 GD is only better than San Jose, Columbus and Minnesota.

I don't know how you define very disciplined well-coached teams statistically but I didn't come to same conclusion looking at those numbers. To me that looks like a team that doesn't start games on time, takes a ton of penalties, has poor special teams, gives up a ton of goals and doesn't seem to have much going for them offensively. So how could that be a team you describe as more than the sum of their parts?

 

[Big Muddy]

JBD was sub-par.

Chychrun way worse.

JBD was both good and bad at different times during this game.

On one goal, he was way out of position and wasn't covering anyone, but, he wasn't alone. All of the Senators were out of position and not covering anyone. I'd say the last few games he's shown some signs of improving.

 

[Micklebot]

3-4-2 in their last 9 games, which in pts% puts them on par with Edmonton and Chicago.
5.4% PP, which is last in the league in that time. 2.7% net PP, also last in the league.
77.1% PK, 21st in the league. 77.1% net PK, 23rd in the league.
40 penalties taken, T9th worst in the league.
25GF, which is 27th in the league. 34GA, T8th worst in the league.
3GF in the 1st period, last in the league.
13GA in P1, T5th worst.
-9 GD is only better than San Jose, Columbus and Minnesota.

I don't know how you define very disciplined well-coached teams statistically but I didn't come to same conclusion looking at those numbers. To me that looks like a team that doesn't start games on time, takes a ton of penalties, has poor special teams, gives up a ton of goals and doesn't seem to have much going for them offensively. So how could that be a team you describe as more than the sum of their parts?

They looked well organized on the forecheck last night, I'll give them that. Defensively once the opposition leaves the OZ though, I really don't see it. I also didn't find they looked well structured the last time we faced them, though they did get the win on the back of Korpi's sub 800 sv% (and some catastrophic blunders on our part).

 

[bert]

3-4-2 in their last 9 games, which in pts% puts them on par with Edmonton and Chicago.
5.4% PP, which is last in the league in that time. 2.7% net PP, also last in the league.
77.1% PK, 21st in the league. 77.1% net PK, 23rd in the league.
40 penalties taken, T9th worst in the league.
25GF, which is 27th in the league. 34GA, T8th worst in the league.
3GF in the 1st period, last in the league.
13GA in P1, T5th worst.
-9 GD is only better than San Jose, Columbus and Minnesota.

I don't know how you define very disciplined well-coached teams statistically but I didn't come to same conclusion looking at those numbers. To me that looks like a team that doesn't start games on time, takes a ton of penalties, has poor special teams, gives up a ton of goals and doesn't seem to have much.

I watch the games. Thats how I come to those conclusions. I see a team that doesnt have much talent but plays well together. Plays a discipline game to even the odds. They had a good game plan yesterday, they hemmed Ottawa in and cut off lanes. Ultimately none of the three teams that I named will have the talent to do any real damage. My point was that they play well together and are more than a sum of their parts. When a more talented team plays together well and plays a disciplined game they have a real chance to make some noise. Kinda like Boston.

Here's what I dont do when I evaluate. I dont cherry pick a specific sum of games then grab those statistics to try and prove my point. There is a reason that you didnt include the entire season or Detroits overall record.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I think Detroit is a very disciplined well coached team. They like Montreal, Philly all play as more than a sum of their parts. You can see the buy in, I think Lalonde is a pretty great coach. He has had the luxury of playing under some other great coachs. Thats why Ottawa didnt have alot of outlet passes. Speaking of holding blue lines they do it well.

As for your last sentence, JBD is turning into one, not a top 4 one but he can play on the 3rd pairing. Been very encouraged by his development.

However you are right they need one badly basically another Zub. There is a very short list of this type of player.

Zub, Carlo, Roy, Tanev, Larsson, Cernak, Andersson, Manson, Demelo

Id be doing anything in my power to get one.

You took the words right out of my mouth, "More than the sum or their parts". Unfortunately, I feel like Ottawa is "less than the sum of its parts" right now.

The level of talent on this team when healthy is great. It stacks up 1 to 1 favourable with the majority of teams. They can win games by the strength of individual talent.

System, buyin and team construction are the intangibles that lead to success exceeding talent.

Fortunately you don't have to wait 4-5 years of drafting to get things in Place to fix this.

Staois (primarily)and Andaluer have their work cut out for them but I feel like their approach so far is correct.

I just firmly feel like DJ isn't "the guy" so any time with him is waisted but there is certainly something to be said about being deliberate and steady particularly because of DJ's popularity with the players.

I think this is not a "must win" year for Staois and Andaluer, which is probably the correct plan, but it does suck

I think Detroit is a very disciplined well coached team. They like Montreal, Philly all play as more than a sum of their parts. You can see the buy in, I think Lalonde is a pretty great coach. He has had the luxury of playing under some other great coachs. Thats why Ottawa didnt have alot of outlet passes. Speaking of holding blue lines they do it well.

As for your last sentence, JBD is turning into one, not a top 4 one but he can play on the 3rd pairing. Been very encouraged by his development.

However you are right they need one badly basically another Zub. There is a very short list of this type of player.

Zub, Carlo, Roy, Tanev, Larsson, Cernak, Andersson, Manson, Demelo

Id be doing anything in my power to get one.

Ok. Agree with most.

If JBD and Brann can pair to be an effective 3rd line. Would you value Tanev/Larsson + some cap space over Chabot/Chychrun.

I think I would and I think that is ultimately the choice you would have to make.

 

[Loach]

Seriously, though, I have the game PVR'ed up until a minute or two into overtime.

Could you share the between period stuff please? I was watching a shitty stream and it kept cutting/blacking out.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I watch the games. Thats how I come to those conclusions. I see a team that doesnt have much talent but plays well together. Plays a discipline game to even the odds. They had a good game plan yesterday, they hemmed Ottawa in and cut off lanes. Ultimately none of the three teams that I named will have the talent to do any real damage. My point was that they play well together and are more than a sum of their parts. When a more talented team plays together well and plays a disciplined game they have a real chance to make some noise. Kinda like Boston.

Here's what I dont do when I evaluate. I dont cherry pick a specific sum of games then grab those statistics to try and prove my point. There is a reason that you didnt include the entire season or Detroits overall record.

Surprisingly, I didn't think 5-1-1 with a 41%+ PP was indicative of the type of team they were going to be this year. It's really not cherry-picked, their hot start is over and now we're looking at what they're settling into. You say they're disciplined but they take a ton of penalties, you say they're well-coached but they don't start games on time and they give up a ton of goals.

I'm not gonna tell you what you see with your eyes but if you're not interested in context then I don't know why you're taking such a definitive stance on the quality of their coaching and making statements about them being greater than the sum of their parts. Teams that are greater than the sum of their parts aren't in the same breath as the Blue Jackets, Sharks, Oilers and Blackhawks of the world.

If you wanna talk about their whole season, in GA/GP they're 20th and we're 21st. Yet you'd describe this team as poorly coached and a mess defensively and describe them as disciplined and well-coached. How does that work exactly?

 

[Golden_Jet]

.

 

[GCK]

.

Pretty sure he was talking about Detroit

 

[bert]

You took the words right out of my mouth, "More than the sum or their parts". Unfortunately, I feel like Ottawa is "less than the sum of its parts" right now.

The level of talent on this team when healthy is great. It stacks up 1 to 1 favourable with the majority of teams. They can win games by the strength of individual talent.

System, buyin and team construction are the intangibles that lead to success exceeding talent.

Fortunately you don't have to wait 4-5 years of drafting to get things in Place to fix this.

Staois (primarily)and Andaluer have their work cut out for them but I feel like their approach so far is correct.

I just firmly feel like DJ isn't "the guy" so any time with him is waisted but there is certainly something to be said about being deliberate and steady particularly because of DJ's popularity with the players.

I think this is not a "must win" year for Staois and Andaluer, which is probably the correct plan, but it does suck

Ok. Agree with most.

If JBD and Brann can pair to be an effective 3rd line. Would you value Tanev/Larsson + some cap space over Chabot/Chychrun.

I think I would and I think that is ultimately the choice you would have to make.

I think Brannstrom and JBD is fine as a third pair in regular season. With the upped physicality of the playoffs I don't like it. They're too small.

I really think they should be giving Brann looks on RD here. Hamonic has struggled. Seems like an opportunity right now to try it.

Kleven Brannstrom is something I'd like to see tried before Chabot comes back. If Brann can play rd effectively they can run a ld with Sandy, Chychrun and Chabot.

 

[Micklebot]

I think Brannstrom and JBD is fine as a third pair in regular season. With the upped physicality of the playoffs I don't like it. They're too small.

I really think they should be giving Brann looks on RD here. Hamonic has struggled. Seems like an opportunity right now to try it.

Kleven Brannstrom is something I'd like to see tried before Chabot comes back. If Brann can play rd effectively they can run a ld with Sandy, Chychrun and Chabot.

Yeah, this is something I'd like to see too.

Another option is for Sanderson to be the guy playing his off side, my rationale is that Chychrun and Chabot are both riverboat gamblers, they need a Methot/Zub like presence to help settle things down at times, Chychrun with Chabot was up and down, when it worked it was great but when it went sideways it was an adventure. Maybe Chychrun with Sanderson, and Chabot with Zub, then Brannstrom with Hamonic

 

[bert]

Yeah, this is something I'd like to see too.

Another option is for Sanderson to be the guy playing his off side, my rationale is that Chychrun and Chabot are both riverboat gamblers, they need a Methot/Zub like presence to help settle things down at times, Chychrun with Chabot was up and down, when it worked it was great but when it went sideways it was an adventure. Maybe Chychrun with Sanderson, and Chabot with Zub, then Brannstrom with Hamonic

There is no scenario where they should be breaking up Sanderson Zub. They are a true shut down pair they can play against the other teams best players. The team with them together is a completely different team. Their shot suppression its night and day. Need a D pair you can put out to try and stop the other teams momentum.

 

[swiftwin]

I think Detroit is a very disciplined well coached team.

Bahahahahhaah.

Y'all would be losing your minds if we had their coaching staff:

Just look at that beautiful D zone structure. We had a WIDE OPEN player in the slot for all but the Norris goal

Not to mention undisciplined penalties late in the 3rd period INCLUDING A TOO MANY MEN penalty.

Meanwhile, only Detroit's 3rd goal was the result of a D zone breakdown.

 

[Micklebot]

There is no scenario where they should be breaking up Sanderson Zub. They are a true shut down pair they can play against the other teams best players. The team with them together is a completely different team. Their shot suppression its night and day. Need a D pair you can put out to try and stop the other teams momentum.

I agree they are great together, and it would be a shame to split them up, but what matters is what makes the team as a whole perform it's best. It does nothing for us to have one great pairing if the other two are constantly getting buried.

It's better to have 3 average or slightly above average pairings, than 1 elite and 2 awful.

 

[bert]

Surprisingly, I didn't think 5-1-1 with a 41%+ PP was indicative of the type of team they were going to be this year. It's really not cherry-picked, their hot start is over and now we're looking at what they're settling into. You say they're disciplined but they take a ton of penalties, you say they're well-coached but they don't start games on time and they give up a ton of goals.

I'm not gonna tell you what you see with your eyes but if you're not interested in context then I don't know why you're taking such a definitive stance on the quality of their coaching and making statements about them being greater than the sum of their parts. Teams that are greater than the sum of their parts aren't in the same breath as the Blue Jackets, Sharks, Oilers and Blackhawks of the world.

If you wanna talk about their whole season, in GA/GP they're 20th and we're 21st. Yet you'd describe this team as poorly coached and a mess defensively and describe them as disciplined and well-coached. How does that work exactly?

I find it incredible how you like to interact on here. How you feel its ok to cherry pick one part of their season because 'its not indicative of the type of team the have' but you feel its ok to cherry pick the other shows absolutely no honest ability to have a discussion. Its somewhere in between both segments.

Your inability to understand context is shockingly poor. Do you feel Ottawa has more talent? Or not? They have a worse record. So at some point the two teams have to be better at something than the other. Detroit despite having less talent than Ottawa (unless you feel otherwise) Has a better record and carried the play in the last game.

As for your last sentence how on earth do you not see my point? I think Detroit is one of the least talented teams in the league but play a very competitive disciplined game and have a winning record. Yes thats what I am saying. Ottawa while being more talented does not play a disciplined game.

Lastly this argument you have decided to engage in un provoked id like to point out never had anything to do with statistics. I was specifically talking about what I watched when they played.

This witch hunt you are on here to try and accuse me of not evaluating this teams coaching staff fairly is kinda unbelievable. Considering I engage in more discussions defending DJ and this coaching staff on here than tearing it down. Maybe if you paid closer attention to my posts you would have recognized this. I like DJ alot, he has done a terrific job in developing this teams young players. They play hard for one another and care. In hockey its a tale as old as time, sometimes a team needs a new voice to take them to the next stage. I think DJ will be a coach with another NHL team and will learn from this experience. Lastly I dont necessarily think that Lalonde is a better coach than DJ. He just has a fresh message. But these are not questions you bothered asking or interpreted. You jumped to an attempt to make an argument that was never even suggested. You fabricated this entire discussion all on your own that had nothing to do with my original statement.

 

[bert]

Bahahahahhaah.

Y'all would be losing your minds if we had their coaching staff:

Just look at that beautiful D zone structure. We had a WIDE OPEN player in the slot for all but the Norris goal
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View attachment 769511
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View attachment 769513

Not to mention undisciplined penalties late in the 3rd period INCLUDING A TOO MANY MEN penalty.

Meanwhile, only Detroit's 3rd goal was the result of a D zone breakdown.

Yet despite being the far less talented team they carried the play. Every team has break downs, teams with elite skill create breakdowns. Ottawa plays a loose creative offensive game that causes problems. Unless you also believe Detroit has more talent than Ottawa?

Are you actually using 3 on 3 breakdowns as an example of a team playing with poor structure. hard to take that type of opinion seriously.

I agree they are great together, and it would be a shame to split them up, but what matters is what makes the team as a whole perform it's best. It does nothing for us to have one great pairing if the other two are constantly getting buried.

It's better to have 3 average or slightly above average pairings, than 1 elite and 2 awful.

I dont see how that makes the team better. Every elite team has a shut down pair. Breaking up things that work is not the solution.

 

[swiftwin]

Surprisingly, I didn't think 5-1-1 with a 41%+ PP was indicative of the type of team they were going to be this year. It's really not cherry-picked, their hot start is over and now we're looking at what they're settling into. You say they're disciplined but they take a ton of penalties, you say they're well-coached but they don't start games on time and they give up a ton of goals.

I'm not gonna tell you what you see with your eyes but if you're not interested in context then I don't know why you're taking such a definitive stance on the quality of their coaching and making statements about them being greater than the sum of their parts. Teams that are greater than the sum of their parts aren't in the same breath as the Blue Jackets, Sharks, Oilers and Blackhawks of the world.

If you wanna talk about their whole season, in GA/GP they're 20th and we're 21st. Yet you'd describe this team as poorly coached and a mess defensively and describe them as disciplined and well-coached. How does that work exactly?

Nailed it. If you read Detroit's GDTs, they're livid with the coaching staff's inability to start on time. They have the most comebacks in the league because they play way too lose, relied on their hot PP at the beginning of the season to comeback in games they had no business being in.