GDT: Detroit Red Wings at Ottawa Senators - 2PM - TSN5/RDS - God Eftermiddag Vingar!

[swiftwin]

Yet despite being the far less talented team they carried the play. Every team has break downs, teams with elite skill create breakdowns. Ottawa plays a loose creative offensive game that causes problems. Unless you also believe Detroit has more talent than Ottawa?

Are you actually using 3 on 3 breakdowns as an example of a team playing with poor structure. hard to take that type of opinion seriously.

I'll be sure to remind you of this the next time we have a D zone breakdown.

Also, they only carried the play in the 2nd period when we started playing passively to limit high danger chances with the 4-0 lead. They got a few lucky bounces, then when it was 4-4, we carried the play in the 3rd period.

 

[bert]

I'll be sure to remind you of this the next time we have a D zone breakdown.

Also, they only carried the play in the 2nd period when we started playing passively to limit high danger chances with the 4-0 lead. They got a few lucky bounces, then when it was 4-4, we carried the play in the 3rd period.

What's this witch hunt exactly about @swiftwin ? Can you please remind me where I suggested Ottawa can't have d zone breakdowns? All I said was that Detroit played a good system and plays to more than a sum of it's parts because they aren't very talented.

The first period Korpisalo was unbelievable. The sens were outchanced and outshot. Goalies are part of the team. Your inability to evaluate this team is on display yet again.

Glad they got the two points. I maintain Ottawa has very poor disciplin at the blue lines and in its own zone. There are very simple mistakes this team makes in danger zones. Discipline teams don't turn pucks over at the blue lines like this team does. Playing on the teams that I did you get benched immediately for doing this repeatedly.

Again I really like DJ he's done a great job up to this point. I just think the message has gone stale. But i mean you never even tried to have an honest discussion here. So I don't expect that to start anytime soon.

 

[Micklebot]

I dont see how that makes the team better. Every elite team has a shut down pair. Breaking up things that work is not the solution.

You don't see how having 3 pairs that are good instead of one and two that are bad makes the team better? Weird.

You know what isn't the solution, being a one D pairing team. We need to get all the pairings working, not just one. If we can do that while keeping Zub and Sanderson together, great. If we can get Chabot and Zub playing like they did in the 20-21 season, and Sanderson with Chychrun providing a similar impact, that's a significant improvement of what we're seeing now. Ideal world, Kleven and JBD can find chemistry as a defensive minded pair down the road, but they aren't there yet.

 

[swiftwin]

Again I really like DJ he's done a great job up to this point. I just think the message has gone stale.

I agree with you 100%.

Perhaps I was too hard on you.

 

[GCK]

I agree they are great together, and it would be a shame to split them up, but what matters is what makes the team as a whole perform it's best. It does nothing for us to have one great pairing if the other two are constantly getting buried.

It's better to have 3 average or slightly above average pairings, than 1 elite and 2 awful.

If you don’t have a pair to play against the other teams best line you are in for some long nights.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You don't see how having 3 pairs that are good instead of one and two that are bad makes the team better? Weird.

You know what isn't the solution, being a one D pairing team. We need to get all the pairings working, not just one. If we can do that while keeping Zub and Sanderson together, great. If we can get Chabot and Zub playing like they did in the 20-21 season, and Sanderson with Chychrun providing a similar impact, that's a significant improvement of what we're seeing now. Ideal world, Kleven and JBD can find chemistry as a defensive minded pair down the road, but they aren't there yet.

I’d prefer a solid defensive pair to put out against other teams top lines.

 

[Micklebot]

If you don’t have a pair to play against the other teams best line you are in for some long nights.

If you have two pairs that get buried against other teams bottom 9, you're in for an even longer nights.

Are Sanderson and Chychrun or Chabot and Zub going to be an elite shut down pairing, no, but they both should be good enough to not get slaughtered out there even against other teams top lines. Maybe reunite Zub with Sanderson on a case by case basis, but the goal is to be the better team over 60 mins, not just the 20 the shutdown line is out there for.

 

[bert]

If you have two pairs that get buried against other teams bottom 9, you're in for an even longer nights.

Are Sanderson and Chychrun or Chabot and Zub going to be an elite shut down pairing, no, but they both should be good enough to not get slaughtered out there even against other teams top lines. Maybe reunite Zub with Sanderson on a case by case basis, but the goal is to be the better team over 60 mins, not just the 20 the shutdown line is out there for.

I think Sanderson Zub have all the characteristics of an elite shut down pair that plays in all situations. I was asking for this pairing all last season, never got it. Zub was on fire before he got hurt, once he gets back to 100 that pairing will go back to being absolutely dominant.

 

[Micklebot]

I think Sanderson Zub have all the characteristics of an elite shut down pair that plays in all situations. I was asking for this pairing all last season, never got it. Zub was on fire before he got hurt, once he gets back to 100 that pairing will go back to being absolutely dominant.

I think it's a great pairing, don't get me wrong, ideally they are our shutdown pair whenever we need one, and we find a way to have Chabot and Chychrun pairings that are equally good at being offensive pairings (or at least minimize the adventure if we opt for them to be together). My issue is right now, what we have isn't working forty mins a game, maybe that will work it's way out with a bit of time once Chabot is back.

 

[bert]

I think it's a great pairing, don't get me wrong, ideally they are our shutdown pair whenever we need one, and we find a way to have Chabot and Chychrun pairings that are equally good at being offensive pairings (or at least minimize the adventure if we opt for them to be together). My issue is right now, what we have isn't working forty mins a game, maybe that will work it's way out with a bit of time once Chabot is back.

Chychruns pairing has been unreal doesnt matter who he plays with. When they have had Zub the sens record is 5-3 Its working thats a 98.4 point pace.... Against Toronto, Chyc was + 4.

What this team is really missing is another top 4 RD.

 

[Micklebot]

Chychruns pairing has been unreal doesnt matter who he plays with. When they have had Zub the sens record is 5-3 Its working thats a 98.4 point pace.... Against Toronto, Chyc was + 4.

What this team is really missing is another top 4 RD.

If Chychrun's pair has been unreal regardless of who he plays with, and Zub-Sanderson are an elite shutdown pair that can play all situations, why would we need another top 4 RD? That simply doesn't flow logically,

Chychrun has been outscoring his issues, but he's been very up and down. I think he can be great with stability, which is why I made the proposal. To me, he needs a Zub more than Chabot or Sanderson. I've liked JBD the last few games, but I don't think he's ideally suited for that role, at least not yet.

 

[coladin]

I find the 24 hour rule works really great being a fan of this team.

No matter how you cut it, 2 extremely lucky goals by Detroit.

This team lacks patience in so mnay ways and it always bites them in the arse.

But, you have to give credit to where credit is due as well and to come out and win that 3rd period is truly something to build on. I don't think anyone had them winning the game, let alone getting into overtime which, to me, means they know what to do and for some reason do not execute what needs to be done.

They are going to get better, and games like yesterday will bost their confidence when the chips are down. That was a gutsy win

And i think JBD is progressing to the point that maybe Chychrun and Zub should become a pairing and have Sandy and JBD together. Chychrun has been below average, let's be honest

 

[GCK]

If you have two pairs that get buried against other teams bottom 9, you're in for an even longer nights.

Are Sanderson and Chychrun or Chabot and Zub going to be an elite shut down pairing, no, but they both should be good enough to not get slaughtered out there even against other teams top lines. Maybe reunite Zub with Sanderson on a case by case basis, but the goal is to be the better team over 60 mins, not just the 20 the shutdown line is out there for.

Zub Sanderson is a great pairing, they complement each other perfectly Chabot Chychrun is also a very good pairing. IMO Zub with Chabot or Chychrun kind of limits what Zub can bring offensively because Chabot and Chychrun don’t have the same elite instincts of Sanderson

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I find the 24 hour rule works really great being a fan of this team.

No matter how you cut it, 2 extremely lucky goals by Detroit.

This team lacks patience in so mnay ways and it always bites them in the arse.

But, you have to give credit to where credit is due as well and to come out and win that 3rd period is truly something to build on. I don't think anyone had them winning the game, let alone getting into overtime which, to me, means they know what to do and for some reason do not execute what needs to be done.

They are going to get better, and games like yesterday will bost their confidence when the chips are down. That was a gutsy win

And i think JBD is progressing to the point that maybe Chychrun and Zub should become a pairing and have Sandy and JBD together. Chychrun has been below average, let's be honest

I feel like we're seeing the mid season trend up in performance we've seen the last few years that many complained about, but it's coming earlier and without as deep of a hole dug. They have an opportunity to grab the ball and run here still. Just gotta stack wins now and start trending above .500.

 

[bert]

If Chychrun's pair has been unreal regardless of who he plays with, and Zub-Sanderson are an elite shutdown pair that can play all situations, why would we need another top 4 RD? That simply doesn't flow logically,

Chychrun has been outscoring his issues, but he's been very up and down. I think he can be great with stability, which is why I made the proposal. To me, he needs a Zub more than Chabot or Sanderson. I've liked JBD the last few games, but I don't think he's ideally suited for that role, at least not yet.

If you ignore the logic and hang on every word to try and argue then there is a very good chance that nothing will flow logically.

You dont appear to be using logic when actually evaluating this team right now. They play great with Sanderson Zub and form a shut down pair you want to break it up. This team quite clearly needs another shut down RD but you try and find any single possible argument to say otherwise.

Chyrchurn pair can play well while having room to get even better. Have you considered that? Dont you want a dominant team or.....? I am having a seriously hard time following what you actually want in this team.

 

[Micklebot]

If you ignore the logic and hang on every word to try and argue then there is a very good chance that nothing will flow logically.

Oh sure, I'm the one ignoring logic... you got me.

You dont appear to be using any logic when actually evaluating this team right now. They play great with Sanderson Zub and form a shut down pair you want to break it up. This team quite clearly needs another shut down RD but you try and find any single possible argument to say otherwise.

I want the team to play well for 60 mins, not just 20. It's no different than juggling forward lines to find the right mix, all your eggs in one basket isn't always the right way to go.

Chyrchurn pair can play well while having room to get even better. Have you considered that? Dont you want a dominant team or what? I am having a seriously hard time following what you actually want in this team.

I've been pretty clear, if you're having trouble following, that's on you; I want to balance the pairings so that we aren't getting buried whenever the Zub-Sanderson pairing isn't on the ice. Chychrun has been an adventure all year, it's really wild to me that you haven;t seen this, and make claims like he;s pairing has been unreal regardless of who he plays with, makes me question if you're watching the same games. I'd like to see someone that can bring stability to his pairing, maybe that's Sanderson, maybe not, but imo it's worth a shot.

 

[bert]

Oh sure, I'm the one ignoring logic... you got me.

I want the team to play well for 60 mins, not just 20. It's no different than juggling forward lines to find the right mix, all your eggs in one basket isn't always the right way to go.

I've been pretty clear, if you're having trouble following, that's on you; I want to balance the pairings so that we aren't getting buried whenever the Zub-Sanderson pairing isn't on the ice. Chychrun has been an adventure all year, it's really wild to me that you haven;t seen this, and make claims like he;s pairing has been unreal regardless of who he plays with, makes me question if you're watching the same games. I'd like to see someone that can bring stability to his pairing, maybe that's Sanderson, maybe not, but imo it's worth a shot.

The team is playing at almost a 100 point pace with Sanderson and Zub together. It gives them a legit shut down pairing and you want to break it up. Multiple other posters also have been able to identify this and articulated it to you but you go against it. So yes that seems to me you're against logic in this scenario. When you have a shut down pairing that helps you over 60 minutes as you can slot them appropriatly. So I dont understand the logic in thinking the way you are describing.

If you wanted the team to be more successful id imagine youd identify that they need another shut down d man. If you think the reason they arent always good all the time is isolated to the D core then I am not sure what to say.

 

[Micklebot]

The team is playing at almost a 100 point pace with Sanderson and Zub together. It gives them a legit shut down pairing and you want to break it up. Multiple other posters also have been able to identify this and articulated it to you but you go against it. So yes that seems to me you're against logic in this scenario. When you have a shut down pairing that helps you over 60 minutes as you can slot them appropriatly. So I dont understand the logic in thinking the way you are describing.

If you wanted the team to be more successful id imagine youd identify that they need another shut down d man. If you think the reason they arent always good all the time is isolated to the D core then I am not sure what to say.

Actually Bert, I think a big part of our defensive issues stems from the forwards, not the D pairings, another shutdown d might be nice, but having the forwards pick up their assignments would go a hell of a lot further. I think that's pretty obvious watching the breakdowns, but here we are.

I also think that having an elite shutdown pair hasn't really had the impact down the lineup you seem to think it should. It certainly didn't help the other two pairings last night.

I'm glad you're relying on a 7 game sample to make your case, really lends credibility to your position. Here's some other stats with Zub in the lineup; .487 CF%, .48 xGF%, .443 SCF%, .402 HDCF%. Those are the kind of underlying numbers that suggest our 100 point pace is really sustainable.

It's fine bert, you want to keep them together, I don't have an issue with keeping them together if we can figure out how to get better results the other 40 mins. I'm just willing to try things out, it appears you aren't.

 

[Big Muddy]

If Chychrun's pair has been unreal regardless of who he plays with, and Zub-Sanderson are an elite shutdown pair that can play all situations, why would we need another top 4 RD? That simply doesn't flow logically,

Chychrun has been outscoring his issues, but he's been very up and down. I think he can be great with stability, which is why I made the proposal. To me, he needs a Zub more than Chabot or Sanderson. I've liked JBD the last few games, but I don't think he's ideally suited for that role, at least not yet.

Does anybody have a breakdown on Chychrun's minutes this year on the right side versus the left side? I'm not sure I've seen where/how to track that (plus I'm lazy LOL).

It might be bad memory on my part, but didn't they have Chabot on the right side when he played with Chychrun (at least for some games)?

I think part of the equation is whether Chychrun plays more on the left side and is more comfortable as a LD. IF that is the case, then we are heavy on LDs, and light on RDs.

And, yes I'd agree that it's "team D" that is weak versus just defensemen break downs.

 

[swiftwin]

I find the 24 hour rule works really great being a fan of this team.

No matter how you cut it, 2 extremely lucky goals by Detroit.

This team lacks patience in so mnay ways and it always bites them in the arse.

But, you have to give credit to where credit is due as well and to come out and win that 3rd period is truly something to build on. I don't think anyone had them winning the game, let alone getting into overtime which, to me, means they know what to do and for some reason do not execute what needs to be done.

They are going to get better, and games like yesterday will bost their confidence when the chips are down. That was a gutsy win

And i think JBD is progressing to the point that maybe Chychrun and Zub should become a pairing and have Sandy and JBD together. Chychrun has been below average, let's be honest

Chychrun was below average against Detroit, but he's been excellent before that. He's been hard carrying the defense since Chabot went down.

Does anybody have a breakdown on Chychrun's minutes this year on the right side versus the left side? I'm not sure I've seen where/how to track that (plus I'm lazy LOL).

It might be bad memory on my part, but didn't they have Chabot on the right side when he played with Chychrun (at least for some games)?

I think part of the equation is whether Chychrun plays more on the left side and is more comfortable as a LD. IF that is the case, then we are heavy on LDs, and light on RDs.

And, yes I'd agree that it's "team D" that is weak versus just defensemen break downs.

I don't think Chychrun has played RD at all this season.

 

[Micklebot]

Does anybody have a breakdown on Chychrun's minutes this year on the right side versus the left side? I'm not sure I've seen where/how to track that (plus I'm lazy LOL).

It might be bad memory on my part, but didn't they have Chabot on the right side when he played with Chychrun (at least for some games)?

I think part of the equation is whether Chychrun plays more on the left side and is more comfortable as a LD. IF that is the case, then we are heavy on LDs, and light on RDs.

And, yes I'd agree that it's "team D" that is weak versus just defensemen break downs.

Mostly Chabot was the one playing the right side from what I recall. I don't think anything tracks which side of the ice guys start and play their shift on,

Chychrun hasn't really played much with LHD other than Chabot (79 mins). After that he's got about 25 mins combined with Brannstrom and Sanderson, which I suspect is mostly late in games pushing for a goal, or getting caught out there mid change,.

I don't think they trust Chychrun defensively on his off side. He's been great offensively, but really up and down defensively.

 

[Big Muddy]

Chychrun was below average against Detroit, but he's been excellent before that. He's been hard carrying the defense since Chabot went down.


I don't think Chychrun has played RD at all this season.

Well, that could be because I seem to remember that when Chychrun was paired with Chabot they had Chabot on the right side. I think that was early in the season.

Regardless, that underscores a point that I was making. We have more good LDs vs. RDs.

This goes back to debate that we were having 1 + years ago. The idea initially was that Chychrun would shore up our right side defense. I have thought of Chychrun throughout his career as a LD and that seems to be how he's being deployed here in Ottawa as well.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I find it incredible how you like to interact on here. How you feel its ok to cherry pick one part of their season because 'its not indicative of the type of team the have' but you feel its ok to cherry pick the other shows absolutely no honest ability to have a discussion. Its somewhere in between both segments.

It's not cherry picking if you break down a team's season into segments...I don't think assessing a team's highest points or their lowest points are particularly useful to the overall projection of where their season is going. Just like expecting a player who's on a tear averaging 2 points per game when they usually average 1 point per game is useful or indicative of how the rest of their season is going to go. And I don't know what this has to do with honesty except for the fact that you always make these types of childish remarks so reflexively.

Your inability to understand context is shockingly poor. Do you feel Ottawa has more talent? Or not? They have a worse record. So at some point the two teams have to be better at something than the other. Detroit despite having less talent than Ottawa (unless you feel otherwise) Has a better record and carried the play in the last game.

Ok???

So in your definition of well-coached and disciplined, even teams with little talent can be forgiven for coming out flat to start every game? Or they can be forgiven for giving up tons of goals and chances? Or they can be forgiven for taking a ton of penalties? It seems to me you're creating a definition of well-coached that's narrow to the point of exclusive, singular use.

As for your last sentence how on earth do you not see my point? I think Detroit is one of the least talented teams in the league but play a very competitive disciplined game and have a winning record. Yes thats what I am saying. Ottawa while being more talented does not play a disciplined game.

Being down 4-0 about 22 minutes into the game is "very competitive and disciplined"?

Lastly this argument you have decided to engage in un provoked id like to point out never had anything to do with statistics. I was specifically talking about what I watched when they played.

Unprovoked? LOL. This is a discussion forum. And for the rest of this sentence, I'll repeat what I said earlier to you: "I'm not gonna tell you what you see with your eyes but if you're not interested in context then I don't know why you're taking such a definitive stance on the quality of their coaching and making statements about them being greater than the sum of their parts."

This witch hunt you are on here to try and accuse me of not evaluating this teams coaching staff fairly is kinda unbelievable. Considering I engage in more discussions defending DJ and this coaching staff on here than tearing it down. Maybe if you paid closer attention to my posts you would have recognized this. I like DJ alot, he has done a terrific job in developing this teams young players. They play hard for one another and care. In hockey its a tale as old as time, sometimes a team needs a new voice to take them to the next stage. I think DJ will be a coach with another NHL team and will learn from this experience. Lastly I dont necessarily think that Lalonde is a better coach than DJ. He just has a fresh message. But these are not questions you bothered asking or interpreted. You jumped to an attempt to make an argument that was never even suggested. You fabricated this entire discussion all on your own that had nothing to do with my original statement.

Unfortunately, you completely lost the plot here. What witch hunt are you talking about? How often do I even respond to your posts? And to all the bolded parts above, I'll let you respond to yourself on this.

I find it incredible how you like to interact on here.

 

[JD1]

There is no scenario where they should be breaking up Sanderson Zub. They are a true shut down pair they can play against the other teams best players. The team with them together is a completely different team. Their shot suppression its night and day. Need a D pair you can put out to try and stop the other teams momentum.

I agree on Sanderson Zub but I don't think we'll see Kleven unless injuries dictate

JBD is coming along

 

[mianjo]

Detroit 2 up against the Laffs after 2 periods