Prospect Info: Detroit Red Wings 2021 Summer Prospect #3

[Henkka]

Playing with grinders is way different than playing with skilled players.

Quite sure we are not gonna put him with 2 grinders for the whole career. Maybe with Raymond and grinding center like Rasmussen in the middle? Of course it's always good to have mixed skillset, but if you think we are gonna have 2 grinders with Berggren, then Red Wings are still on a rebuild and whole rebuild has failed miserably.

There will be skill players for him to play with. And then some grinder to balance it. That's how it goes.

Why are you thinking there should be 2 grinders with him? We have Vrana, Larkin, Fabbri, Suter, Raymond, Veleno, Zadina, 2022 1st pick etc. to select from.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Here's the thing; his playstyle is almost exactly the same as Lucas Raymond but nobody really talks about "if" Lucas Raymond can adjust his game to the North American ice and be successful. Nobody talks about his game translating.

If anything, Berggren shows more grit and chipiness to his game than Raymond has. The kid got himself suspended, was trading crosschecks with Mo Seider every time Skelleftea played Rogle, and every time he got knocked down Berggren was quick to get back up. He's no big hitter but the kid was never afraid to work the puck along the boards.

I watched plenty enough SHL hockey this past year to be confident in saying that Berggren is not the exact same style of player that Raymond has appeared to be at various times. Both guys are capable of spinning defenders like a top, but it's what they like to do once they have that space that differentiates them. They have a lot of similarities, but Raymond is far less likely to bail on the inside lane when he gets a step than Berggren. Berggren does have a tendency to willingly drift wide. Raymond also has done a much better job in the past while playing off the puck to get himself into high danger areas as a scoring threat, largely because I think his shot is at least one full tier higher than Berggren's, maybe more, so he's got more confidence.

Both have a route to success in the NHL, but Raymond being more versatile and more well rounded makes it easier to project when I watch them. I think Berggren will be an extremely good hockey player, but his upside is just limited in my eyes. He could always buck this assessment if he shows the ability to create his own scoring in the NHL by either improving his shot, or consistently getting himself into shooting position in the slot.

 

[raymond23]

Calling Berggren a perimeter player is lazy imo.

Yes he leverages the outside of the ice effectively because he's fast and small and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's really good at drawing multiple defenseman before making a play. There are also plenty of examples of taking the middle of the ice and driving the net with the puck.

In some ways he reminds me of Ehlers without the elite shot.

 

[r0bert8841]

Calling Berggren a perimeter player is lazy imo.

Yes he leverages the outside of the ice effectively because he's fast and small and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's really good at drawing multiple defenseman before making a play. There are also plenty of examples of taking the middle of the ice and driving the net with the puck.

In some ways he reminds me of Ehlers without the elite shot.

Its not lazy. He is the definition of a perimeter player.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Calling Berggren a perimeter player is lazy imo.

Yes he leverages the outside of the ice effectively because he's fast and small and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's really good at drawing multiple defenseman before making a play. There are also plenty of examples of taking the middle of the ice and driving the net with the puck.

In some ways he reminds me of Ehlers without the elite shot.

And if he’s Nik Ehlers minus the shot, then you tap dance and celebrate that you found a second line offense driving winger that would pair spectacularly with Larkin and a goal scoring winger. Of course this happens when we draft Wright to take over the first line center responsibility.

 

[r0bert8841]

Quite sure we are not gonna put him with 2 grinders for the whole career. Maybe with Raymond and grinding center like Rasmussen in the middle? Of course it's always good to have mixed skillset, but if you think we are gonna have 2 grinders with Berggren, then Red Wings are still on a rebuild and whole rebuild has failed miserably.

There will be skill players for him to play with. And then some grinder to balance it. That's how it goes.

Why are you thinking there should be 2 grinders with him? We have Vrana, Larkin, Fabbri, Suter, Raymond, Veleno, Zadina, 2022 1st pick etc. to select from.

What are you talking about? Berggren is going to be either in Grand Rapids next season, which is basically full of grinders, or he is going to be in Detroits bottom 6, along side grinders.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Calling Berggren a perimeter player is lazy imo.

Yes he leverages the outside of the ice effectively because he's fast and small and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's really good at drawing multiple defenseman before making a play. There are also plenty of examples of taking the middle of the ice and driving the net with the puck.

In some ways he reminds me of Ehlers without the elite shot.

He's the type of player that can try to deke through 4 defending players.

But at his heart (and his official position on a hockey team) is playmaking winger. I don't know about playmaking wingers where ya'll come from, but back where I come from - wingers play on the wing and centers play in the center.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Bad argument. Way too many swedish players leave SHL too early and arguably have their development stunted because of it.
Playing AHL in d+3 is not a mark of a better player than one who plays SHL in d+3. So compare PPG of 20 year old swedes vs. 20 year old Berggren.

Berggren outscores:

- Mikael Backlund
- Lias Andersson
- Loui Eriksson
- Adrian Kempe
- Alexander Nylander
- Rickard Rakell
- Victor Rask
- Isac Lundeström
etc etc etc

My point has nothing to do with the merits of the SHL vs. the AHL as a developmental league.

The stat posted shows Berggren's scoring relative to other U21 players in the SHL, where few players have out-produced him. To me that's not very compelling because good players usually leave the SHL prior to their D+3 seasons (regardless of whether or not you think that's the correct developmental decision).

I'm saying that that particular stat flatters Berggren because most good players his age have left the SHL.

 

[Syckle78]

It's interesting how much differently people view Berggren considering how far along he is. Usually you see such differing opinions on guys just drafted or like d+1 age. People can't even agree on what type of game he plays. It's a nice debate though beats the hell out of the dead horse debates we had around here for so long. Definitely more intriguing that who was more valuable to play last year Svech who nobody wants vs. Ryan who nobody wants.

 

[izlez]

Everybody who didn't vote Edvinsson #2, and ESPECIALLY those that didn't vote him #3, we are officially fighting:

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Edvinsson add Soderblom.

 

[Pavels Dog]

My point has nothing to do with the merits of the SHL vs. the AHL as a developmental league.

The stat posted shows Berggren's scoring relative to other U21 players in the SHL, where few players have out-produced him. To me that's not very compelling because good players usually leave the SHL prior to their D+3 seasons (regardless of whether or not you think that's the correct developmental decision).

I'm saying that that particular stat flatters Berggren because most good players his age have left the SHL.

To some extent yes, but you're never gonna find a ton of comparables in SHL if you're looking for players that ended up being stars. Sweden isn't churning out 10 superstars per year.
Some analysis has to be done at an individual level. How is the player getting his points? How does his play compare with the rest of the league? Is he a passenger or someone that creates offense?
And, has he had any significant injuries that make strict d+1/2/3 comparisons difficult?

 

[Bench]

This is the last time I'm not voting for a goalie.

 

[RabidBadger]

Edvinsson for me. Cossa was close for me though cause upside and ceiling is about 90% importance to me when I vote for prospects and Cossa is a blue chipper to me.

Thanks for saving me the time of writing that.

Add Mc Isaac

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Edvinsson for me. I think he can have a greater impact on the team than Berggren even if he doesn't hit his ceiling.

Berggren is, however, one of our more prospects. If he doesn't hit I think it will really change how we view the overall skill level of the organization for a couple of years.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Quite sure we are not gonna put him with 2 grinders for the whole career. Maybe with Raymond and grinding center like Rasmussen in the middle? Of course it's always good to have mixed skillset, but if you think we are gonna have 2 grinders with Berggren, then Red Wings are still on a rebuild and whole rebuild has failed miserably.

There will be skill players for him to play with. And then some grinder to balance it. That's how it goes.

Why are you thinking there should be 2 grinders with him? We have Vrana, Larkin, Fabbri, Suter, Raymond, Veleno, Zadina, 2022 1st pick etc. to select from.

Serious question. How many of those players do you see making the Hall of Fame someday?

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Berggren.

Add Soderbolm.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This is the last time I'm not voting for a goalie.

You're not already voting for the goalie... This might be the most shocking thing to happen during these polls.

 

[Bench]

You're not already voting for the goalie... This might be the most shocking thing to happen during these polls.

I was convinced Edvinsson would be taken before #6, so I didn't invest a lot of energy talking about him or feeling the hype. When Columbus didn't snag him it completely changed my draft board, despite my big desire to add Wallstedt.

When the trade up happened I think we all knew it was a goalie but I was pretty shocked it was Cossa. Very excited to have him in the system. He looks phenomenal in the limited showings he's had so far. And for that reason he's my #4 prospect in our system today, but hey, let's see how that looks in a few years. He's got the raw talent to be as impactful as Seider.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Bad argument. Way too many swedish players leave SHL too early and arguably have their development stunted because of it.
Playing AHL in d+3 is not a mark of a better player than one who plays SHL in d+3. So compare PPG of 20 year old swedes vs. 20 year old Berggren.

Berggren outscores:

- Mikael Backlund
- Lias Andersson
- Loui Eriksson
- Adrian Kempe
- Alexander Nylander
- Rickard Rakell
- Victor Rask
- Isac Lundeström
etc etc etc

I must be missing something on half of these names unless these are guys that did in fact leave Sweden before the age range you are even talking about at least Nylander and Backlund left before their D+3 off the top of my head. Andersson had a pretty unique falling out with his organization really by most standards. I think that kid gets way more shit for a moment of stupidity and competitiveness than anyone should. Rakell and Eriksson were legitimate stars for a second. But I guess maybe I am not following.

I will say this when a first two round pick fails in NA from the CHL, USHL or NCAA they don't have that ready made excuse either. Lots of those guys go beat up Europe pretty good too after that. So a part of this argument is when European prospect doesn't work out we talk about rushing development and the culture shock. Yeah is that a thing, absolutely that has chewed some guys up and spit some guys out. There is also the reality that some of these guys don't play the style hockey you might need to in order to succeed. That they don't like the increase in speed, smaller areas and rougher style hockey. That isn't their game. But I think this he left to soon stuff is now getting a little out of hand. It doesn't explain every failure and has gotten to a pretty heavy passing the buck area.

More than a few of us have pointed to things he still needs to work on. Glad he rebounded from the injuries, but frankly without last year, he would have fallen out of our top 10 entirely. I think him going to the AHL is a way of letting him learn the NA game at an easier level, though there is more physicality there so his injury history does worry me. But there is an adjustment for sure, but maybe he knocks camp out of the park. I will also say one of the reasons I am staunchly on this and it has been over a decade but I have had guys from both Sweden (top 6 player in Florida still) and Finland (recently retired goalie) in Milwaukee tell me the AHL is a step up from their domestic leagues.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I was convinced Edvinsson would be taken before #6, so I didn't invest a lot of energy talking about him or feeling the hype. When Columbus didn't snag him it completely changed my draft board, despite my big desire to add Wallstedt.

When the trade up happened I think we all knew it was a goalie but I was pretty shocked it was Cossa. Very excited to have him in the system. He looks phenomenal in the limited showings he's had so far. And for that reason he's my #4 prospect in our system today, but hey, let's see how that looks in a few years. He's got the raw talent to be as impactful as Seider.

I have the same top 4 to be clear. I just hope the members of the Goaltender Union aren't after you @Bench.

Edvinsson has a very special tool kit. I honestly had more debate with him and Raymond than I did him and Cossa. For me he is the slam dunk #3 in our pool. I think he would be #1 in more than a few teams pools around the league.

 

[jfrank21]

Not only did Berggren lose a shit ton of development time, but he was also extremely young for his draft class. Comparing him to other D+3 players my ass, he was 20 years old this entire season and had missed the equivalent of an entire season's worth of games. I have no clue how people are sleeping on him. I voted Edvinsson this round, but Berggren is definitely next. He crushed it during the u18's before his draft, that's when he first caught my attention and I was so pumped when the Wings got him in the 2nd round. He had two injury plagued years but did come over and played very well in the Development camps. He just has "it" (IQ, creativity, whatever you want to call it). Comparing him to Pulkinnen or Hudler is a freaking joke. And I was a big Happy fan. I really think Nyquist is the floor here.

 

[r0bert8841]

Not only did Berggren lose a shit ton of development time, but he was also extremely young for his draft class. Comparing him to other D+3 players my ass, he was 20 years old this entire season and had missed the equivalent of an entire season's worth of games. I have no clue how people are sleeping on him. I voted Edvinsson this round, but Berggren is definitely next. He crushed it during the u18's before his draft, that's when he first caught my attention and I was so pumped when the Wings got him in the 2nd round. He had two injury plagued years but did come over and played very well in the Development camps. He just has "it" (IQ, creativity, whatever you want to call it). Comparing him to Pulkinnen or Hudler is a freaking joke. And I was a big Happy fan. I really think Nyquist is the floor here.

I was pretty clear it wasn’t a skill set comparison, but whatever. Take it out of context if it makes you feel better. They have more comparable development paths to him than Nyquist.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Not only did Berggren lose a shit ton of development time, but he was also extremely young for his draft class. Comparing him to other D+3 players my ass, he was 20 years old this entire season and had missed the equivalent of an entire season's worth of games. I have no clue how people are sleeping on him. I voted Edvinsson this round, but Berggren is definitely next. He crushed it during the u18's before his draft, that's when he first caught my attention and I was so pumped when the Wings got him in the 2nd round. He had two injury plagued years but did come over and played very well in the Development camps. He just has "it" (IQ, creativity, whatever you want to call it). Comparing him to Pulkinnen or Hudler is a freaking joke. And I was a big Happy fan. I really think Nyquist is the floor here.

Your entire post was all well and good, and then you bring up Nyquist as the floor.

This is going to knock this entire thread off the rails again, but this simply is just not remotely reasonable. Nyquist's best was first line caliber. Berggren hasn't played a single second of professional hockey in North America, and people have brought up Nyquist as the low end a few times now. If we were honestly talking about Berggren's floor being Nyquist, holy shit, we would be talking about him as one of the best young forward prospects in the entire sport. He's just going to magically show up and become a first liner with the upside to become a top half first line winger in the sport? Good grief.

Edit: I hate doing this type of stuff because it makes me look like a hater of Berggren. That couldn't be further from the truth; I love him as a prospect. I just think we have gotten the buggy way the f*** out in front of the horses right now.

 

[FabricDetails]

When the trade up happened I think we all knew it was a goalie...

I think I'm the only one in the world who didn't presume this.

I saw all the comments here and then Kevin Weeks and crew say it and I thought to myself, "Why do we think that?"

EDIT/ADD: I suppose if I truly considered the type of prospect pool that was left and the fact the Wings don't really have any goalie prospects the thought may have crossed my mind.