Prospect Info: Detroit Red Wings 2021 Summer Prospect #3

[FabricDetails]

Why is there this thought that he's a soft floater that can't adjust to the fast pace of the North American game?

I don't know about soft floater who can't adjust to the pace but rather the observation that he is primarily a perimeter player along with moments of confirmation bias. And then the question of, "What will he look like against NHL competition?"

It ain't official until it's official. I think some of us need to see it and then those who believed in him from the beginning can have their "I told y'all MFs" moment.

 

[ThankGord]

Went with Edvinsson here, next one will be tough.

Yes.
Why is there this thought that he's a soft floater that can't adjust to the fast pace of the North American game?

I like Berggren a lot but watching his highlights he almost always cuts to the outside after driving the net or skates around the perimeter (will be more difficult to pull off on smaller ice). He's a great skater and passer though, super skilled.

 

[lilidk]

At this point , because haven't seen any prospects progress, let's just go with Edvinsson, freshly drafted top 4 defenseman.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Bro, most of those numbers I posted WERE guys in their D+3 years. A couple of them were D+2 years.

Petersson put up those stats in his D+1.

Nilsson, Forsberg, and Zetterberg played SHL hockey *decades* ago.

Sedin played decades ago and certainly didn't play SHL hockey in his D+3.

Runblad like you said is kind of an anomaly, and played a different position.

Lindblom is a good recent comparable, and probably in the ballpark of what I'd expect Berggren to develop into (in terms of impact, not style).

I posted a list of almost all the good Swedish forwards playing NHL hockey right now, and very few of them played SHL hockey during their D+3 season. I think that William Karlsson and Jakub Silfverberg did, so there would be two good NHLers that Berggren did in fact outproduce.

My point is that not a ton of good NHLers play D+3 hockey in Sweden. Nilsson, Zetterberg, and Forsberg did many years ago. I think it should be pretty apparent that Berggren doesn't bring what guys like Zetterberg or Forsberg brought to the table.

In recent years William Karlsson, Jakub Silfverberg, and Oskar Lindblom did. Good players, if Berggren can develop similarly that would be good for us. But my point is that there isn't a long list of good NHLers competing with Berggren on that stat.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don't know about soft floater who can't adjust to the pace but rather the observation that he is primarily a perimeter player along with moments of confirmation bias. And then the question of, "What will he look like against NHL competition?"

It ain't official until it's official. I think some of us need to see it and then those who believed in him from the beginning can have their "I told y'all MFs" moment.

Primarily was a perimeter player in his draft year and D+1. If you would have watched him in Skelleftea over the last year you'd have seen him cutting to the net or to the slot quite often.

And on the point of being a perimeter player, the NHL is full of those guys who are pretty good scorers.

Went with Edvinsson here, next one will be tough.


I like Berggren a lot but watching his highlights he almost always cuts to the outside after driving the net or skates around the perimeter (will be more difficult to pull off on smaller ice). He's a great skater and passer though, super skilled.

He's a 5'10" playmaker. Of course he's not going to crash the net. He uses his strengths (Skating speed, stickhandling and passing) to create openings that he exploits.

Here's a few oldies but goodies.

3 Changes Driving Jonatan Berggren’s Offensive Explosion in the SHL - EP Rinkside



And here's the video where he talks about working with Kronwall to be less on the outside.


About 1:33 in.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

EDIT: And when did Axel Holmstrom beat the Sedins point record?
Axel Holmström at eliteprospects.com
In J18's? We're talking about men's pro hockey. Again, this is a bad argument.

Red Wings sign Swedish junior star Axel Holmstrom to entry-level deal

It's all in the spirit of fun, but you've gotta at least understand what I'm talking about before you call it a bad argument.

I thought the Holmstrom story was more common knowledge, but to be fair I could've explained that better.

 

[ThankGord]

Primarily was a perimeter player in his draft year and D+1. If you would have watched him in Skelleftea over the last year you'd have seen him cutting to the net or to the slot quite often.

And on the point of being a perimeter player, the NHL is full of those guys who are pretty good scorers.



He's a 5'10" playmaker. Of course he's not going to crash the net. He uses his strengths (Skating speed, stickhandling and passing) to create openings that he exploits.

Here's a few oldies but goodies.

3 Changes Driving Jonatan Berggren’s Offensive Explosion in the SHL - EP Rinkside



And here's the video where he talks about working with Kronwall to be less on the outside.


About 1:33 in.

Right, I'm just saying that if he's going to be playing that style of game, switching ice sizes will have more of an impact. That's why people have concerns. I think he can adjust and succeed though.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Red Wings sign Swedish junior star Axel Holmstrom to entry-level deal

It's all in the spirit of fun, but you've gotta at least understand what I'm talking about before you call it a bad argument.

I thought the Holmstrom story was more common knowledge, but to be fair I could've explained that better.

I didn't know about the playoff point record. I glanced at the regular season stats and the junior totals were the only thing that jumped out.

Still, that's a hot streak in the playoffs being compared to a whole season. It is still an apples to oranges argument. 15 games to 49 games.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Right, I'm just saying that if he's going to be playing that style of game, switching ice sizes will have more of an impact. That's why people have concerns. I think he can adjust and succeed though.

Here's the thing; his playstyle is almost exactly the same as Lucas Raymond but nobody really talks about "if" Lucas Raymond can adjust his game to the North American ice and be successful. Nobody talks about his game translating.

If anything, Berggren shows more grit and chipiness to his game than Raymond has. The kid got himself suspended, was trading crosschecks with Mo Seider every time Skelleftea played Rogle, and every time he got knocked down Berggren was quick to get back up. He's no big hitter but the kid was never afraid to work the puck along the boards.

 

[ThankGord]

Here's the thing; his playstyle is almost exactly the same as Lucas Raymond but nobody really talks about "if" Lucas Raymond can adjust his game to the North American ice and be successful. Nobody talks about his game translating.

If anything, Berggren shows more grit and chipiness to his game than Raymond has. The kid got himself suspended, was trading crosschecks with Mo Seider every time Skelleftea played Rogle, and every time he got knocked down Berggren was quick to get back up. He's no big hitter but the kid was never afraid to work the puck along the boards.

IDK about that, I'm no expert but Raymond comes across as a stronger two-way player and forechecker who looks to drive the net and has a better wrist shot while Berggren is a good puck carrier and passer with great vision.

 

[r0bert8841]

Hudler was a playmaker with bad skating. Pulkkinen was a shooter.

Berggren is fast-skating playmaker, should work in NHL. I don't expect him ever being 1st line material, but middle6 offensive forward, just like Gustav Nyquist was.

Nyquist had a much more North American game, he played in the NCAA. Berggren does not play like Nyquist did as a prospect.

 

[Henkka]

Nyquist had a much more North American game, he played in the NCAA. Berggren does not play like Nyquist did as a prospect.

Could you describe how Berggren plays?

 

[r0bert8841]

Yes.

Why is there this thought that he's a soft floater that can't adjust to the fast pace of the North American game?

Also Berggren is a superior skater to either player you mentioned. Hudler was a successful NHLer despite the skating. Pulkkinen was a failure because of his inability to improve skating. Those comparables are not good at all
.

I put that disclaimer saying they weren't comparables is style. Pointing out which parts of there games did or didn't work out isn't the point. The point is being very successful in Europe as prospects but did not play a North American game. Both of them required years in GR before they got to the NHL and had to go through years of development. It doesn't matter that specific parts of Berggrens game is worse or better, he still doesn't play a North American game.

I am not saying Berggren can't adjust to the North American game, but to assume he will is just naive. He is not as close as many of our other top prospects.

 

[Henkka]

I put that disclaimer saying they weren't comparables is style. Pointing out which parts of there games did or didn't work out isn't the point. The point is being very successful in Europe as prospects but did not play a North American game. Both of them required years in GR before they got to the NHL and had to go through years of development. It doesn't matter that specific parts of Berggrens game is worse or better, he still doesn't play a North American game.

I am not saying Berggren can't adjust to the North American game, but to assume he will is just naive. He is not as close as many of our other top prospects.

Could you describe what is this so called North American game, and how it differentiates of European game they are playing in Sweden?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

IDK about that, I'm no expert but Raymond comes across as a stronger two-way player and forechecker who looks to drive the net and has a better wrist shot while Berggren is a good puck carrier and passer with great vision.

Raymond is better defensively and has a better shot. I'll give you that. The way they run the offense as playmaking wingers that are the line's primary puck carrier is very similar though.

 

[r0bert8841]

Could you describe how Berggren plays?

Yeah. He is not very active in the D zone or in the corners. Waits for someone to get him the puck. Once he has the puck he usually makes a play very quickly. Usually stays on the perimeter. Very good passer. Had great chemistry with his line mates who were also quite skilled and good passers. Didn't mind being near the net to knock in a rebound but he was by no means physical.

Nyquist was not a perimeter player in college. Nyquist was much better at D and in the corners. Nyquist could cause turnovers and then turn it into something.

 

[r0bert8841]

Could you describe what is this so called North American game, and how it differentiates of European game they are playing in Sweden?

He is a perimeter player. Its much easier to be a perimeter player when the rink is bigger. Also needs to be better on the boards. Way more dump and chase. He also is used to playing with skilled linemates that complement him, in North America is going to be playing with Ernes and Abdelkaders.

 

[r0bert8841]

Here's the thing; his playstyle is almost exactly the same as Lucas Raymond but nobody really talks about "if" Lucas Raymond can adjust his game to the North American ice and be successful. Nobody talks about his game translating.

ok man.

 

[izlez]

Here's the thing; his playstyle is almost exactly the same as Lucas Raymond but nobody really talks about "if" Lucas Raymond can adjust his game to the North American ice and be successful. Nobody talks about his game translating.

I certainly have similar worries with Raymond and Berggren

I have Raymond ranked a bit higher, with a higher ceiling and a higher probability of being successful. But not by that much and I'm not entirely convinced of either player for similar reasons.

(That is to say I DO really like both players. I'm just not all-in on them being NHL stars yet)

 

[TCNorthstars]

Berggren is also a blue chipper. And he’s close to realizing that scoring potential.

Why don’t you back it of 20-30% there bud.

 

[Henkka]

He is a perimeter player. Its much easier to be a perimeter player when the rink is bigger. Also needs to be better on the boards. Way more dump and chase. He also is used to playing with skilled linemates that complement him, in North America is going to be playing with Ernes and Abdelkaders.

Kaprizov is a perimeter player too. You are seeing a problem, where isn't a problem.

If he is gonna play with Erne's and Abdelkader, his highlight video looked like that. Shooting behind a screening body at net front. Or passing it to 2nd wave guy. Repeat. Always will pass on the slot, from perimeter or not. Creates a high-danger.

Nothing but smart, smart, smart and smart plays 100% of the time.

 

[Pavels Dog]

My point is that not a ton of good NHLers play D+3 hockey in Sweden..

Bad argument. Way too many swedish players leave SHL too early and arguably have their development stunted because of it.
Playing AHL in d+3 is not a mark of a better player than one who plays SHL in d+3. So compare PPG of 20 year old swedes vs. 20 year old Berggren.

Berggren outscores:

- Mikael Backlund
- Lias Andersson
- Loui Eriksson
- Adrian Kempe
- Alexander Nylander
- Rickard Rakell
- Victor Rask
- Isac Lundeström
etc etc etc

 

[r0bert8841]

Kaprizov is a perimeter player too. You are seeing a problem, where isn't a problem.

Kaprizov is not a perimeter player. You are choosing not to see a problem that is definitely there.

If he is gonna play with Erne's and Abdelkader, his highlight video looked like that. Shooting behind a screening body at net front. Or passing it to 2nd wave guy. Repeat.

Nothing but smart, smart, smart and smart plays 100% of the time.

You are giving him way to much credit. Playing with grinders is way different than playing with skilled players.

 

[Henkka]

Bad argument. Way too many swedish players leave SHL too early and arguably have their development stunted because of it.
Playing AHL in d+3 is not a mark of a better player than one who plays SHL in d+3. So compare PPG of 20 year old swedes vs. 20 year old Berggren.

Berggren also lost a full year for an injury. You can't count those D+3 as equal scenario.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Berggren also lost a full year for an injury. You can't count those D+3 as equal scenario.

Yep. He entered this season with less professional games than some swedish prospects enter their d+1 with.