News Article: Detroit Red Wings’ Salary Cap Mess & How Larkin Fits

[FireBird71]

That article should be stickied.

Lots of details I wasn’t aware of

 

[Run the Jewels]

https://thehockeywriters.com/detroit-red-wings-no-trade-clauses/
Found this today pertaining to our NTC

The Hockey Writers colleague Kyle Gipe joked, “(Red Wings general manager Ken) Holland gave those out like candy at one point.”

Hey now, I've been saying Kenny hands them out like candy on Halloween for quite a few years now.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Of course, it’s never ideal to let mediocre veterans determine their fate, but Holland can begin shipping players out soon. And, if the Red Wings go through another subpar season, perhaps some of these players would be willing to waive their NTCs to play for a contender if one gives Holland a ring at the trade deadline.

Yes, I'm sure plenty of contenders will be fighting to get Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, Jonathan Ericsson, Thomas Vanek or Niklas Kronwall on their rosters.

 

[Oddbob]

Yes, I'm sure plenty of contenders will be fighting to get Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, Jonathan Ericsson, Thomas Vanek or Niklas Kronwall on their rosters.

If I was a contending team in need of a 3rd line center and PK'er, I would trade for Helm. He does a lot of little things well, and would be great on a contending team in that role. He is paid in line with others for similar roles/pts/icetime.

 

[waltdetroit]

I checked 7-8 teams on CapFriendly and TBL has 10 contracts with clauses, no team less than 6 (but I didn't check every team).

 

[InjuredChoker]

I checked 7-8 teams on CapFriendly and TBL has 10 contracts with clauses, no team less than 6 (but I didn't check every team).

Nashville Predators - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Winnipeg Jets - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Colorado Avalanche - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Carolina Hurricanes - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

TB clearly uses their team competitiveness and location (taxes + weather) to their advantage and thus can sign FAs to below market value but give FAs added security in form of NTC/NMC.

iirc, mike gillis canucks were the first team to really use that method.

 

[InjuredChoker]

We also stockpile picks at a greater rate than any team in the league so I don’t think we’re missing much by not taking on cap dumps.

we do?

we are missing out on more picks/prospects by not taking cap dumps. more picks/prospects improve chances of getting good players.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

we do?

we are missing out on more picks/prospects by not taking cap dumps. more picks/prospects improve chances of getting good players.

The last two years, 10 picks each year. Next year, going to have several more.

And really, the kinds of picks that you get for taking on cap dumps are generally third or later round picks. The best "cap dump" pick anyone has gotten is Chicago's 2nd and 3rd they got in the Bickell deal and in that one, they sent probably the best player of the entire deal in Teraveinen to Carolina.

Taking on cap dumps is a god awful way to improve your roster. It's a ludicrous thing to complain that the Wings don't have cap space so they can't trade for Matt Belesky so they can pay him 4M to suck and get a 3rd round pick for their troubles.

You know what else improves your chances of getting good players? Doing your job in scouting. Trying to actually build a roster that might have some cohesion at all so you can convince a player to come here. The Red Wings have little need for middle of the road to garbage prospects. They need elite talent. They need the kind of talent that you can only find at the top of the draft or by paying 11M+ in FA.

 

[InjuredChoker]

The last two years, 10 picks each year. Next year, going to have several more.

And really, the kinds of picks that you get for taking on cap dumps are generally third or later round picks. The best "cap dump" pick anyone has gotten is Chicago's 2nd and 3rd they got in the Bickell deal and in that one, they sent probably the best player of the entire deal in Teraveinen to Carolina.

Taking on cap dumps is a god awful way to improve your roster. It's a ludicrous thing to complain that the Wings don't have cap space so they can't trade for Matt Belesky so they can pay him 4M to suck and get a 3rd round pick for their troubles.

You know what else improves your chances of getting good players? Doing your job in scouting. Trying to actually build a roster that might have some cohesion at all so you can convince a player to come here. The Red Wings have little need for middle of the road to garbage prospects. They need elite talent. They need the kind of talent that you can only find at the top of the draft or by paying 11M+ in FA.

taking cap dumps for picks is still better than just signing cap dump caliber players in FA. even if it's just a 3rd or so, it's better than nothing. and the term would be shorter too, wouldn't take 5+ year deals.

taking cap dumps and doing ones job in scouting aren't mutually exclusive. current roster doesn't have much cohesion either so it not like it would matter.

elite talent is usually found best at the top of the draft but it can be found in some occasions in later rounds or the trade marker. that's when having good but not elite players - like teräväinen - can be very useful assets.

 

[StargateSG1]

taking cap dumps for picks is still better than just signing cap dump caliber players in FA. even if it's just a 3rd or so, it's better than nothing. and the term would be shorter too, wouldn't take 5+ year deals.

taking cap dumps and doing ones job in scouting aren't mutually exclusive. current roster doesn't have much cohesion either so it not like it would matter.

elite talent is usually found best at the top of the draft but it can be found in some occasions in later rounds or the trade marker. that's when having good but not elite players - like teräväinen - can be very useful assets.

Some of these people just don't get it;
Perhaps they need a reminder that Hawks traded Teravainen to get rid of Bickell's cap hit and Hinostroza to get rid of the Hossa's deal.
Without cap space? That's not possible to do to "accelerate" the rebuild.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Some of these people just don't get it;
Perhaps they need a reminder that Hawks traded Teravainen to get rid of Bickell's cap hit and Hinostroza to get rid of the Hossa's deal.
Without cap space? That's not possible to do to "accelerate" the rebuild.

So you base your entire team building strategy around trying to get assets from poorly managed teams? How about you actually try to take care of your own business? Accelerating the rebuild if you’re going to actually commit whole heartedly to doing it is dumb.

And again, yes.. Teravainen is a good piece. Hinozostra is a good piece. THE WINGS DONT NEED GOOD PIECES. They need elite pieces.

If Teravainen or Hinostroza was in Detroit, you know the overriding feeling would be that they were passengers because they’d have 40 points and wouldn’t look half as good.

 

[Pavels Dog]

we do?

we are missing out on more picks/prospects by not taking cap dumps. more picks/prospects improve chances of getting good players.

Some of these people just don't get it;
Perhaps they need a reminder that Hawks traded Teravainen to get rid of Bickell's cap hit and Hinostroza to get rid of the Hossa's deal.
Without cap space? That's not possible to do to "accelerate" the rebuild.

Don't misrepresent trades. Hinostroza is a 24 year old former 6th round pick with a career high of 25 points and was involved in a trade with a lot more pieces. Yes Yotes got more actual hockey value, but they gave up some assets themselves and the teams shifted 3rd/5th round picks.

Teuvo was a good young player moved in an effort to clear salary, but Chicago also acquired a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Should we trade picks for players like Terevainen? I personally don't think so; but more importantly don't paint these trades as if teams are just giving away great assets for nothing if you take on some cap. Even the f*cking Datsyuk trade could easily end up a win for us in the long run.

Even a garbage signing of a cheap guy like Steve Ott has landed us a 5th round pick in next year's draft. How many teams have had as many picks as us in the last 2 drafts? Very few. Already 10-11 picks for 2019. Selling is pure value. Looking for cap dumps is not as simple.

 

[StargateSG1]

Don't misrepresent trades. Hinostroza is a 24 year old former 6th round pick with a career high of 25 points and was involved in a trade with a lot more pieces. Yes Yotes got more actual hockey value, but they gave up some assets themselves and the teams shifted 3rd/5th round picks.

Teuvo was a good young player moved in an effort to clear salary, but Chicago also acquired a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Should we trade picks for players like Terevainen? I personally don't think so; but more importantly don't paint these trades as if teams are just giving away great assets for nothing if you take on some cap. Even the f*cking Datsyuk trade could easily end up a win for us in the long run.

Even a garbage signing of a cheap guy like Steve Ott has landed us a 5th round pick in next year's draft. How many teams have had as many picks as us in the last 2 drafts? Very few. Already 10-11 picks for 2019. Selling is pure value. Looking for cap dumps is not as simple.

As I said, some of you just don't get it,
it's not about Teravainen and Hinostroza per say, it's about having that ability
to begin with, while rebuilding.
Spending to the Cap is beyond stupid, when you are rebuilding.

 

[Pavels Dog]

As I said, some of you just don't get it,
it's not about Teravainen and Hinostroza per say, it's about having that ability
to begin with, while rebuilding.
Spending to the Cap is beyond stupid, when you are rebuilding.

Right, and 90% of teams don't have that ability, even when rebuilding. Because only budget teams walk around with that much cap space. Having assets to sell is simply the much safer, more controllable and flexible way of handling things. It's proven to work.

Arizona is pretty much a joke and Carolina hasn't made the playoffs in 9 seasons. These are examples of teams leveraging their cap space to "accelerate" their rebuilds? Or is this another case where we try to put an expectation on Holland to do things that have never been done in NHL history, and if he doesn't he's a moron?

 

[InjuredChoker]

Right, and 90% of teams don't have that ability, even when rebuilding. Because only budget teams walk around with that much cap space. Having assets to sell is simply the much safer, more controllable and flexible way of handling things. It's proven to work.

Arizona is pretty much a joke and Carolina hasn't made the playoffs in 9 seasons. These are examples of teams leveraging their cap space to "accelerate" their rebuilds? Or is this another case where we try to put an expectation on Holland to do things that have never been done in NHL history, and if he doesn't he's a moron?

abby, ericsson, dekeyser, nielsen etc take large portions of our cap space and aren't assets. they are just empty cap space. we'd still have assets to sell, actually even more assets because ideally on those cap dumps the term would be shorter and some team might want them at TDL. or use the extra cap/roster space to sign FAs on 1yr deals and then sell them at TDL.

pretty sure that 90% figure is BS. things will change but right now, 20 teams have 5+M in cap space.

leafs (took laich from the caps) and even the avs this offseason used cap space to gain assets or more specifically in avs case, acquire a player for cheaper price.

on what other cases we have put an expectationon holland to do things that have never been done in NHL history?

anyway, even if it hadn't been done, it's still not an excuse. NHL is behind the other US pro leagues in many ways, especially when it comes to being innovative.

arizona is a joke because they have no money. applies somewhat to carolina too. they'd be in even worse position if they hadn't used their cap space to their advantage,

you wouldn't take a 23 yr old winger who scored 64 points (more than any red wing btw) for a 2nd and 3rd rounder? give me a break.

 

[Pavels Dog]

abby, ericsson, dekeyser, nielsen etc take large portions of our cap space and aren't assets. they are just empty cap space. we'd still have assets to sell, actually even more assets because ideally on those cap dumps the term would be shorter and some team might want them at TDL. or use the extra cap/roster space to sign FAs on 1yr deals and then sell them at TDL.

We have some not so great contracts but the important thing is having assets to sell each year. Daley, Green, Nyquist, Vanek, Howard, Kronwall, Glendening, Witkowski, Frk, AA, Ericsson etc. are moveable in the short term (next 1-2 seasons). Some for 1st/2nd round picks, some for a conditional 7th but every bit matters.
Cap dumps would take up a lot of cap space and ACTUALLY be ”empty”, whether you want to accept it or not Abby, Ericsson, Helm and Dekeyser are legit NHLers. They are perhaps not big trade assets, but could be moveable down the road.

on what other cases we have put an expectationon holland to do things that have never been done in NHL history?

To continually find superstars in the draft despite having the worst draft position? To sell players at the TDL while in a playoff position (there may be isolated cases of this happening but it’s far from normal)? To start dismantling a 100+ point team? Etc.

you wouldn't take a 23 yr old winger who scored 64 points (more than any red wing btw) for a 2nd and 3rd rounder? give me a break.

I’d rather trust in our drafting. Trading picks is for a latter stage of the rebuild when you want to add the 1 or 2 missing pieces. Right now? Draft, develop, stay patient. Terevainen or Hinostroza do nothing for us.

 

[obey86]

Some of these people just don't get it;
Perhaps they need a reminder that Hawks traded Teravainen to get rid of Bickell's cap hit and Hinostroza to get rid of the Hossa's deal.
Without cap space? That's not possible to do to "accelerate" the rebuild.

This method of team building works so well that the two teams who have done it in your example have both been terrible for like the past decade.

 

[jkutswings]

Nobody is advocating that the Wings exclusively grab extra picks via cap dumps. But there's no reason to bash it as one tool in the toolbox.

The odds of getting a 3rd round pick or better for taking somebody else's bad player are better than the odds of getting a 3rd round pick or better for one of the lousiest contracts currently on the roster, so what's the big deal?

 

[InjuredChoker]

We have some not so great contracts but the important thing is having assets to sell each year. Daley, Green, Nyquist, Vanek, Howard, Kronwall, Glendening, Witkowski, Frk, AA, Ericsson etc. are moveable in the short term (next 1-2 seasons). Some for 1st/2nd round picks, some for a conditional 7th but every bit matters.

outside of the first two and the last one (who don't/won't have much value anyway) would still be here even if wings had focused on taking cap dumps.

trade return for those players is important bc 'every bit matters'? but not when it comes to assets acquired via cap dumps, then it's 'we're not missing on much'.

Cap dumps would take up a lot of cap space and ACTUALLY be ”empty”, whether you want to accept it or not Abby, Ericsson, Helm and Dekeyser are legit NHLers. They are perhaps not big trade assets, but could be moveable down the road.

yes those guys are legit NHLers. yay? not like it matters at this point.

they might be moveable someday but the return is going to be lot worse than what teams have gotten from cap dumps.

To continually find superstars in the draft despite having the worst draft position? To sell players at the TDL while in a playoff position (there may be isolated cases of this happening but it’s far from normal)? To start dismantling a 100+ point team? Etc.

the first seems more like kenny expectation rather than this forum expectation, since he's the one who believed on 'rebuilding on the fly'. the second one has happened, not normal isn't ever. dismantling 100+ point team would have meant trading datsyuk/Z/lids in early 10s. can't recall that happening but maybe some posters did suggest that (they were wrong).

I’d rather trust in our drafting. Trading picks is for a latter stage of the rebuild when you want to add the 1 or 2 missing pieces. Right now? Draft, develop, stay patient. Terevainen or Hinostroza do nothing for us.

that works too. trade for teräväinen on cheap, then trade him for ton of picks to somewhere else.

trading picks for a player in his early 20s is hardly against rebuilding either. but i guess having helm/nielsen, givani smith and kasper kotkansalo is better. we have no need for a player in his early 20s who would've been our leading scorer.

 

[obey86]

Nobody is advocating that the Wings exclusively grab extra picks via cap dumps. But there's no reason to bash it as one tool in the toolbox.

The odds of getting a 3rd round pick or better for taking somebody else's bad player are better than the odds of getting a 3rd round pick or better for one of the lousiest contracts currently on the roster, so what's the big deal?

They are? Says who? What do we have, a small handful of examples of this happening over say the last 5 years? Helm, Abdelkader, Vanek, Ericsson, Nyqvist, etc caliber players are traded literally every trade deadline for draft picks.

 

[InjuredChoker]

This method of team building works so well that the two teams who have done it in your example have both been terrible for like the past decade.

they have done it for only couple of years. and those teams are poor so they likely won't succeed no matter what they do. doesn't mean that some methods they use can't be effective in building a good team.

 

[jkutswings]

They are? Says who? What do we have, a small handful of examples of this happening over say the last 5 years? Helm, Abdelkader, Vanek, Ericsson, Nyqvist, etc caliber players are traded literally every trade deadline for draft picks.

Vanek and Nyquist aren't among the team's worst contracts to begin with, so don't move the goalposts.

But if you think another team would give Detroit a good draft pick for a guy like Abdelkader or Helm, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[odin1981]

Cap dumps wouldn't be terrible to look at if we can get top 3 round picks for them and the player attached to said deal only had 2-3 years remaining. That being said however given our current situation this year we are capped out so it would a more wait and see come next year.

 

[Claypool]

Oh god, people using Arizona and Carolina as examples for teams successfully rebuilding. Please make it stop.

 

[Pavels Dog]

they might be moveable someday but the return is going to be lot worse than what teams have gotten from cap dumps.

Examples?

trade return for those players is important bc 'every bit matters'? but not when it comes to assets acquired via cap dumps, then it's 'we're not missing on much'.

Because for example signing a Vanek and then trading him at the TDL is PURE VALUE. Even Steve Ott is pure value. Daley, Green, nothing but value. They play for us, help the team stay somewhat respectable, then we can sell them if we want. Value, value, value. Flexibility in terms of when we sell, for what we sell, who we sell, if we sell. Not being at the mercy of hoping some team messes up things badly enough to want our services as a cap dump toilet.

Pure cap dump trades rarely even happen because teams know it's better to just bite the bullet and ride out the contracts, or buyout/waive the player instead of using assets to get rid of a contract.
And here's the kicker: if we have 5-10 million cleared up for potential cap dumps... you think any team will give up a good asset to trade that bad contract to us, if a more desperate team like Arizona wants that contract to reach the cap floor and offers them a cheaper deal?

It's simply a marketplace where a team like us isn't supposed to be a player. If you can't fill your roster with actual hockey players and reach the cap floor that way; yes, THEN you look for cap dumps to gain value in any way possible as you play the budget team financial game. We don't have to do that. It's like looking at the beggar down the street getting handouts and thinking "wow, I could make money just by sitting there!" as you go to your decently paid dayjob.

Nobody is advocating that the Wings exclusively grab extra picks via cap dumps. But there's no reason to bash it as one tool in the toolbox.

The odds of getting a 3rd round pick or better for taking somebody else's bad player are better than the odds of getting a 3rd round pick or better for one of the lousiest contracts currently on the roster, so what's the big deal?

If the odds are better, then you should have no trouble listing many such trades.

Because there are countless examples of pretty bad hockey players getting a 2nd/3rd round pick in return at the TDL.