Vanek returned Motte last TDL because when he was moved to Florida he din't push the needle (outside of one game) and they missed the playoffs. But last year he proved he can gel with a young team. Although his playoff performance was middle of the pack for his team, he did't lose value in that stint. I don't expect to get a good return for Vanek, but if he has a similar season to his last time in Detroit, I expect to get something.
News Article: Detroit Red Wings’ Salary Cap Mess & How Larkin Fits
- Thread starter StargateSG1
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InjuredChoker
Registered User
TT/bickell, savard and laich off the top off my head, there have probably been some others. dunno if there are some other teams right now willing to dump players.
we could still do that, except i'd have focused on signing players on 1 yr deals so we could sell more often or taking cap dumps, whichever is preferable from asset management stand point.
lol at flexibility. cap space gives flexibility. can take cap dumps for assets or if there isn't ideal option there, or sign players to short term deals and sell at TDL. fortunately we've been doing that a bit but we should have focused on lesser term on our signings and/or on players that could increase their value.
daley and green are pretty bad value for how long they were signed, how big cap charge they got and how much they are likely going to return. vane
that's assuming arizona is willing to give a cheaper deal and second of all, arizona has been over the cap floor BEFORE they've done this cap done deals, perhaps because they want to avoid possible cap circumvention punishment. and they are poor. there's a limit how much salary they can take.
except in this scenario, we could have the option to do both (now we don't) and we could actually make more money by just being beggar on the streets.
we can still sign or ar least we could have the option to sign those bad hockey players and sell at TDL. we should've signed a lot more of them every year but had no room to do that due to cap/roster space issues.
cap space is an asset. for rebuilding teams, it can be used to sign players to short-term deals and then sell them at TDL or take cap dumps in exchange for assets or both.
InjuredChoker
Registered User
that's pretty good coming from you, considering you claimed couple of years ago that having helm is better than having teräväinen. looks like carolina came out as winner on that one, no?
arizona and carolina can't have succesful rebuilds because they are poor. it doesn't matter what they do, they likely won't succeed. leafs also too cap dumps btw. successful rebuilding takes more than just innovative ways to gain assets though it's a good start. after that is were carolina and arizona fail because they don't have many to sign/keep good players or invest lot of money in scouting etc.
and i'm not advocating using carolina or arizona-style rebuilding just that one particular method they have used to gain assets.
jkutswings
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A bad franchise using a given technique doesn't automatically make it a bad strategy for anybody to use. Just like a single example of a team winning a Cup by doing X, doesn't automatically make it the right move for everybody.
Otherwise, everybody should stop breathing, because everybody who takes in oxygen eventually dies (so that nasty oxygen stuff must be really hazardous).
Like IC said, certain teams have such limited financial parameters that they're effectively farm teams for NHL contenders, no matter what they do. That doesn't mean that nothing they try could possibly be a helpful thing for Detroit to look at.
Otherwise, everybody should stop breathing, because everybody who takes in oxygen eventually dies (so that nasty oxygen stuff must be really hazardous).
Like IC said, certain teams have such limited financial parameters that they're effectively farm teams for NHL contenders, no matter what they do. That doesn't mean that nothing they try could possibly be a helpful thing for Detroit to look at.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
And basically all those involved a bunch of pieces. You can leverage your cap space to get a better deal than you would have otherwise gotten, but it's still not free assets. 2nd and 3rd for TT, Savard was traded a few times for different pieces, Caps got a decent depth guy like Winnick for Laich.
Since missing the playoffs I believe the longest FA contract we've signed is 3 years? That's not long. And again, if we stock up on picks more than any other team in the league already... where is the problem? Are we really going to criticize Holland for not having 15 picks in every draft? Even if we have 10 players on expiring contracts, we're not going to trade 10 players at the TDL. Having a handful of moveable players each season is more than enough.
We can sell before the TDL and then take on a cap dump from some team gearing up for a cup run. We can definitely do both. And it's much better value-wise than going into the season with bunch of unused cap space and then it turns out, "whoops no team was desperate to unload a contract".
All this sounds like is basically lack of patience. We've had two drafts outside of the playoffs. Combined in those drafts we've had 21 picks.
Let's look at some other rebuilding teams:
Nucks last two drafts: 14 picks
Yotes last two drafts: 18 picks
Sabres last two drafts: 12 picks
Oilers last two drafts: 12 picks
Canes last two drafts: 14 picks
Leafs 15-16 drafts: 20 picks
Should I go on? What is the concern here?
InjuredChoker
Registered User
savard was traded along with a 2nd rounder for couple of AHLers. technically not a free asset but essentially.
the caps also gave up a 2nd and a decent prospect in connor carrick in the laich deal.
since missing the playoffs, i've been mostly happy with the moves holland has made, though i didn't like the offseason year ago. but both TDLs and this offseason were good. biggest mistakes and why we are in this mess were made the years before during the rebuilding on the fly. there is no set number of picks that i'd want every draft. i could be happy with kenny even if we had 8 picks in a draft or not be happy with 12 picks. depends on the moves made and how well he used resources/assets. like CAR trading for TT cost 2 picks but it was obviously a great move.
we'll see how larkin contract turns out but it looks like our cap space during the season is going to be extremely limited so we might not be able to. if we have bunch of unused cap space it means we don't have bunch of terrible contracts we have and can easily even overpay for some FAs willing to sign 1 year deals and then retain salary when they are traded at TDL.
some of those teams aren't rebuilding, just incompetent, they are still not the same thing. oilers definitely weren't rebuilding, sabres didn't intend to and canes were trying to get out of their rebuilding phase. canucks are probably both, hard to say about benning. yotes and leafs were the only ones rebuilding and both of them traded 1st rounders for players in those drafts.
i'm willing to be patient, kind of have to because this is going to take a while. it's more about being smart and gaining assets every way possible because we are going to need them when we move into the contending phase.. hopefully. i'm in no way looking for shortcuts. i'm pretty sure i'd be willing to suck longer than kenny.
InjuredChoker
Registered User
savard was traded along with a 2nd rounder for couple of AHLers. technically not a free asset but essentially.
the caps also gave up a 2nd and a decent prospect in connor carrick in the laich deal.
since missing the playoffs, i've been mostly happy with the moves holland has made, though i didn't like the offseason year ago. but both TDLs and this offseason were good. biggest mistakes and why we are in this mess were made the years before during the rebuilding on the fly. there is no set number of picks that i'd want every draft. i could be happy with kenny even if we had 8 picks in a draft or not be happy with 12 picks. depends on the moves made and how well he used resources/assets. like CAR trading for TT cost 2 picks but it was obviously a great move.
we'll see how larkin contract turns out but it looks like our cap space during the season is going to be extremely limited so we might not be able to. if we have bunch of unused cap space it means we don't have bunch of terrible contracts we have and can easily even overpay for some FAs willing to sign 1 year deals and then retain salary when they are traded at TDL.
some of those teams aren't rebuilding, just incompetent, they are still not the same thing. oilers definitely weren't rebuilding, sabres didn't intend to and canes were trying to get out of their rebuilding phase. canucks are probably both, hard to say about benning. yotes and leafs were the only ones rebuilding and both of them traded 1st rounders for players in those drafts.
i'm willing to be patient, kind of have to because this is going to take a while. it's more about being smart and gaining assets every way possible because we are going to need them when we move into the contending phase.. hopefully. i'm in no way looking for shortcuts. i'm pretty sure i'd be willing to suck longer than kenny.
obey86
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- Jun 9, 2009
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Brendan Smith was traded for a 2nd and 3rd rounder. Tomas Jurco (!!) got a 3rd rounder. The Red Wings can easily get something in that realm for players like Helm or Abdelkader in the last years of their contracts at the trade deadline.
Ok, so let's ignore Helm and Abdelkader and say you're right about them. Green, Vanek, Nyqvist, Ericsson, and Daley will likely all return assets at the trade deadline either this year's trade deadline or the following trade deadline. I guess hypothetically we could have not signed Daley, Green, Vanek, etc and instead used that cap space to take on bad contracts for picks...but the net difference between the returns is probably close to zero and it's much more likely you can trade those players at the trade deadline than it is finding a team to give you draft picks for a bad contract IMO. A dozen players (if not more) are traded at the deadline every season, the "take a bad contract for a draft pick route" is much more rare as history shows.
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Pavels Dog
Registered User
This is why I'm a strong believer our rebuild will work out fine though. We are doing it right so far. Lots and lots of picks and so far there's patience as well. For example a minor move like trading a 6th this year for a 5th next year. After '19 we're likely going to have 30+ picks in 3 drafts. I doubt a lot of teams can say they've had that, at least not in the 7-round era.
Fans will always underrated the Abdelkaders and Helms of the world. They don't have tons of trade value when their term is several years, but even if they decline a bit teams are always interested in adding some veteran depth/grit for the playoffs. And just like you can use cap space to take a cap dump, you can retain salary on a player to make him more interesting and increase the potential return. If we could something for Jurco, Mrazek, Kindl, Smith and Ott, we can get something for Helm and Abdelkader.
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jkutswings
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I'm not talking about a deadline deal.
If you're trading a Helm or Abdelkader in the final few months of their expiring deal, then it's no longer anywhere near the worst contact on the roster. And if you're taking a cap dump for a really good return, it's usually for more than one year.
I'm saying that I would rather have not signed one or more of those deals in the first place, and intentionally leave $3-5M in cap space, so that, in any given year, you could add a bad player for one year OR LONGER, if the return makes it worthwhile. (Or use that space for more trade flexibility, or more maneuverability if a big fish hits free agency, or looking at an RFA offer sheet, or whatever. Making things as liquid as possible, rather than collecting meh players that have to get LTIR'ed or buried in the AHL or waved before there's any chance at making a move before February. You're already a bad team, so just leave all your options open.)
If you're trading a Helm or Abdelkader in the final few months of their expiring deal, then it's no longer anywhere near the worst contact on the roster. And if you're taking a cap dump for a really good return, it's usually for more than one year.
I'm saying that I would rather have not signed one or more of those deals in the first place, and intentionally leave $3-5M in cap space, so that, in any given year, you could add a bad player for one year OR LONGER, if the return makes it worthwhile. (Or use that space for more trade flexibility, or more maneuverability if a big fish hits free agency, or looking at an RFA offer sheet, or whatever. Making things as liquid as possible, rather than collecting meh players that have to get LTIR'ed or buried in the AHL or waved before there's any chance at making a move before February. You're already a bad team, so just leave all your options open.)
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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I'm not talking about a deadline deal.
If you're trading a Helm or Abdelkader in the final few months of their expiring deal, then it's no longer anywhere near the worst contact on the roster. And if you're taking a cap dump for a really good return, it's usually for more than one year.
I'm saying that I would rather have not signed one or more of those deals in the first place, and intentionally leave $3-5M in cap space, so that, in any given year, you could add a bad player for one year OR LONGER, if the return makes it worthwhile. (Or use that space for more trade flexibility, or more maneuverability if a big fish hits free agency, or looking at an RFA offer sheet, or whatever. Making things as liquid as possible, rather than collecting meh players that have to get LTIR'ed or buried in the AHL or waved before there's any chance at making a move before February. You're already a bad team, so just leave all your options open.)
If you're trading a Helm or Abdelkader in the final few months of their expiring deal, then it's no longer anywhere near the worst contact on the roster. And if you're taking a cap dump for a really good return, it's usually for more than one year.
I'm saying that I would rather have not signed one or more of those deals in the first place, and intentionally leave $3-5M in cap space, so that, in any given year, you could add a bad player for one year OR LONGER, if the return makes it worthwhile. (Or use that space for more trade flexibility, or more maneuverability if a big fish hits free agency, or looking at an RFA offer sheet, or whatever. Making things as liquid as possible, rather than collecting meh players that have to get LTIR'ed or buried in the AHL or waved before there's any chance at making a move before February. You're already a bad team, so just leave all your options open.)
Can't wait for this forum to turn on Bertuzzi once he starts having to get paid.
"There's guys like him available every offseason! Why are you locking him up long term!?!?"
jkutswings
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If he's a 15 goal scorer that suddenly gets paid like he's supposed to become a 25 goal scorer, while being signed 2-3 years longer than necessary, and inked six months before his current deal is up...you betcha.
The Mantha deal was a great move. The Tatar trade was highway robbery. Credit where credit is due. But nearly everybody around the league said it was a dumb move to give aging role players like Abdelkader and Helm the investment Detroit did, and they were right.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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If he's a 15 goal scorer that suddenly gets paid like he's supposed to become a 25 goal scorer, while being signed 2-3 years longer than necessary, and inked six months before his current deal is up...you betcha.
The Mantha deal was a great move. The Tatar trade was highway robbery. Credit where credit is due. But nearly everybody around the league said it was a dumb move to give aging role players like Abdelkader and Helm the investment Detroit did, and they were right.
ricky0034
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the massive hurry on that 7 year Abdelkader extension still scares me to this day
the only logical reason to rush a deal like that through given the circumstances and not hold out for something better is if the organization actually thought he was capable of building on his numbers and putting up a 30+ goal year
the only logical reason to rush a deal like that through given the circumstances and not hold out for something better is if the organization actually thought he was capable of building on his numbers and putting up a 30+ goal year
Shaman464
No u
Out of sheer curiosity what was the average round of those picks? I'd rather have 12 picks that average being 3rd round picks than 20 that average 5th round.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
17 in first 3 rounds (so far).
14 in rounds 4-7 (so far)
31 picks with average of round 3.71.
WingedWheel1987
Registered User
Fans have underrated the Helm and Gator's of the NHL? One year after giving Helm his extension, the Wings tried to give him to Vegas for free.
The real problem is that GM's vastly overrate bottom six depth talent.
Bottom six talent is always replaceable. You should never invest long term deals with the Darren Helm's and Justin Abdelkader's of the NHL. All you are doing is putting a terrible contract on the books. There is literally zero upside in signing those players to long term deals. It can only hurt you.
The real problem is that GM's vastly overrate bottom six depth talent.
Bottom six talent is always replaceable. You should never invest long term deals with the Darren Helm's and Justin Abdelkader's of the NHL. All you are doing is putting a terrible contract on the books. There is literally zero upside in signing those players to long term deals. It can only hurt you.
waltdetroit
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If they took Helm they would've been. Probably would've lived up to those 31st in the league expectations.
waltdetroit
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I wasn't sure if WW87 meant that Helm was overrated because he was available or because Vegas didn't take him. Vegas took a few "grinders" who turned out well (cherry-picking Karlsson who was a checker for CBJ).
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Tried to give? So every unprotected player was someone the GMs ”tried to give away”?
And if you want to make it another (dead, tired, beaten into the ground) discussion about contracts; Orpik got s sh*t deal but was an important piece of a cup winner. Wilson isn’t much different than Abby and got a bigger deal from what I guess is just a cup winning moron of a GM. Career high 28 points Kruger got a fat contract from another idiot cup winning GM, who traded him away.. only to trade for him back again.
Etc. etc.
These types of players always have more value than fans think. They have to be reeeeaaaallyyyy bad to lose all value. Remember the supposed Philly deal for Cleary? Remember rumors of Crosby trying to sway Cleary to come there? All these hockey people are just morons...
obey86
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So, for example, instead of having Ericsson under contract for the next two years at 4.25M and trading him for a draft pick at the trade deadline, you'd prefer to have that cap space open and use it to take on a bad contract (let's say for argument sake you take on a bad player/contract with 2 years and 4.25M cap hit) to receive a draft pick in return. Ok....I'm not seeing where there's much of a difference? In both cases you have a bad contract and in both cases you are getting a draft pick.
jkutswings
hot piss hockey
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Correct. But the point is that the pick from <Team X> for Detroit acquiring the worst 2 year contract from their roster would likely be better than the pick <Team Y> would give the Wings for 2 years of Abdelkader or Helm.
So would you take two years of Bobby Ryan at $7.25 million for a second round draft pick? Or would you rather trade Helm with two years left on his deal for a 3rd round pick?
Pavels Dog
Registered User
This is where you lose me and would need to provide evidence.
There’s a pretty good article on the atlethic right now about AZs use of cap space for these deals.
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