Surely the fact they didn't pick him at 46th suggests they had no intention of doing so, making your counter-argument far more disingenuous than any iteration of the actual argument, even if we ignore the fact that its incredibly unlikely that they pick dmen with both 1st and 2nd round picks without a second 2nd round pick, which they got from said trade, which then turned out to be Hronek. But then its pretty obvious that you are determined to never give the current wings regime any benefit of any doubt on any issue...
Dennis Cholowski signs a 3 year EL Contract
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Brad Stuart is a good comparison. A top 4 d-man who if on a weak enough team could fill in as a #2.
Of course the jury is out whether Cholowski or Hronek or both will still as genuine NHL-ers, but both have upside.
As far as the trade goes, we are another year or two at least from being able to assess it, but it looks a better trade now than it did then, and if all 3 player continue their development at similar rates over the next 2 years as since the draft, the Wings will be very happy indeed. However, as Sproul, Oullett, Smith, Almquist & Kindl have all proven, all 3 could yet end up being borderline NHL-ers, despite Chychrun's good start (particularly given his injury issues).
Anyone trying to draw conclusions on this is largely wasting their time, as was the case 12 & 24 months ago.
Comparing Chychrun to Brad Stuart doesn't really reflect poorly on the guy. Folks want to downplay Chychrun's being the NHL and doing well, but what has Cholo done that outshines that? This isn't to say Cholowski can't be a really good player down the road or whatever, but Chychrun has just had a better start to his career. And looking like the next Brad Stuart that can eat 20+ tough minutes on Cup caliber teams is pretty darn nice.
Knocking Chychrun for not putting up enough points or not playing more than three or four pretty solid NHL D while the other guy had trouble getting consistent IT with a college hockey club doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like Cholo more because of whatever, but none of that takes anything from Chychrun or the fact he looks like he already has the ability to hold down 20+ minutes in the NHL.
Heaton
Moderator
20 points isn't what I want, it's a measuring stick to illustrate our inability to draft and develop defensemen in general. I also don't take credit for Quincey since he scored his 20 points being the PPQB for bad teams. Kindl and Smith could've done the same given the opportunity.
newfy
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Cholo hasnt done anything to outshine that necessarily but theyre very differnet prospects. Chychrun was expected to step in the NHL and make an OK impact which he has. Cholowski isnt nearly as close to his ceiling as Chychrun is, and what hes done since the draft is actually develop into a 6'2, 200 lb dman. People didn t know if he could do it but if he could get bigger he had a good chance at being a solid player. Obviously thats not as good as playing in the NHL, but when youre talking about guys who are 20 its pretty short sighted to say "well hes in the league already so hes better".
I think youre overrated Chychrun when you say hes looking like a guy that can munch 20+ tough minutes on a contender. Hes playing number 5 mins with very mediocre advanced stats. He stepped into the league right away like he was supposed to and hasnt done much to say hes going to be anything more than a number 4 Dman. Even if he has a Brad Stuart career (I think thats his higher end), the wings dont need a Brad Stuart that can step in right away, they need something better so Cholowski was the better pick for the wings imo.
I say this as a guy whose fmily had sting season tickets and has seen him plenty. He didnt progress much in his draft year and he hasnt progressed very quickly in the NHL. I think the low ceiling title for him is pretty fair
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
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Chychrun is not Brad Stuart... the whole “lack of a ceiling” argument was not a narrative in his draft year at all. It was a narrative made up after the fact by fans of the teams who passed on him.
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The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
It is a ceiling and floor thing though. Cholowski was always a long-range prospect the knock on Chychrun is what he has done thus far in the NHL. That he could stay healthy, that he had a low offensive IQ. That he was more of the Stuart crowd in terms of his offense is limited. That is what it is. For instance I really wanted Samuelsson this year, because that player is useful. But he isn't a guy you pine about. He isn't the kind of player we have been killing management passing on without name value attached.
Cholowski was a project, but he has top pairing upside. His coach in Portland compared him to Seth Jones for instance. Now I don't think that is realistic. But Cholowski shows high level offense in flashes. But Cychrun was alway thought to be the more advanced player in terms of readiness in the post draft year. But that doesn't fit our timeline anyway. I just don't get the fascination. We also have guys that aren't great puck movers already on the roster. Having the guys that are coming up to replace them have that ability which we sorely lack isn't a bad thing.
The reason I went with Stuart was to hammer home I don't hate him. But I remember hockey fans spent a decade trying to make Stuart into something he simply wasn't going to be. When people accepted he was no more was basically his stint in Detroit, and we appreciated him for what he was. The stay at home second pairing guy isn't something you stare for longingly because he isn't much if you cannot find the first three in my opinion. We gambled on two higher upside guys and both are progressing nicely. To date it seems like a really solid move that fits our rebuild timeline.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Chychrun falling was rumored in the scouting community. Just like Veleno falling was so it isn't just to put the Wings slant on this.
Maybe. Cholo might go to GR and just never move past that. He might move to the NHL and never competently hold down more than 18 mins a night. Chychrun was 90th in the NHL for TOI/G among defensemen last season. He would have magically became a #4 in Detroit with his IT, and just some ugly averaging with his ranking and the number of teams puts him around a #3 across the league. And if Chychrun was on Detroit last season, do you think he plays behind Ericsson and Daley? I don't.
We might need more than just a Brad Stuart type on our blueline, but when's the last time we drafted that? Or had that since Stuart left? Stuart was a #4 here because we had that luxury, he played above that for a good chunk of his career. I'm not the one who started this Stuart comparison, but if that's what people are looking at when they see Chychrun, I'm not seeing the negatives to this.
You can like Cholowski's upside more, but even if Chychrun is closer to his ceiling right now than Cholowski is....so what? Cholowski is still going to be fighting for minutes in GR this fall. Chychrun will be playing 20+ minutes a night again in the NHL. Maybe Cholo will be better down the road, but he's got a lot farther to climb to get there.
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Mo Seider Less Problems
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Feels like it to me, sorry. I think if Chychrun was a Wings prospect some of y’all would have a different take entirely.
He fell from #3 to #13 in Bob’s ranking. That’s a decent drop but I don’t think it’s to the extent some are saying.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
I do think he would still be a prospect with us though as well which is also interesting. I am not sure they were going to rush him. Even if they took him they wouldn't have had the grade on him that Phoenix/Arizona did.
I am not sure the Wings put him directly in. I don't see a whole lot of offense. I was okay with going with him on draft night. I even said at the time I thought this was a case of a kid being over-scouted. But seriously the concerns that knocked him down the board and what limited his upside when guys like Button talked about him are really his primary problems to date in the NHL. Now will he overcome them? I don't know.
But I know this. I like having two shots on guys that have at least similar second pairing value with maybe more potential because of the punch they might provide on the back-end to be more. I didn't say the other guy Chychrun reminds me of but I liked him a lot which might also impact me, Zach Bogosian... Just kids that were physically able and could really skate at a young age but seemingly never made a ton of offensive gains. To me that Chychrun somewhat fell before the selection was the more unusual change. But I don't see it as wrong anymore. I would have argued on draft night, but I can't after the last couple seasons. He doesn't process the game well offensively and that doesn't always get fixed, see DeKeyser.
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Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
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I agree with your point on having 2 shots as opposed to 1, and you can see my avatar if you want my thoughts on Hronek.
But I don’t agree with the take on Chychrun. The guy I see him being similar to if he puts it together is more along the lines of Phaneuf. Maybe Bogosian as well. But he is worlds better with th puck on his stick than someone like Dekeyser.
The Zermanator
In Yzerman We Trust
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I don't think you can reasonably compare Cholowski to Chychrun at this point. Get into all the semantics around ceilings you want, the fact is they're around the same age and Chychrun took on an important role for a rookie D in the NHL. Why is his potential development more limited? He's accomplished quite a lot for his age.
The saving grace is the addition of Hronek to Cholowski. Together they give us two pretty good kicks at the can. But there's still a good chance Chychrun ends up the best of the three.
But that's irrelevant at this point. I'm happy with Cholowski and Hronek and am happy with their continued progress. Looks like we got 2 NHL D with good heads on their shoulders. After a long list of headcase dmen (Smith, Kindl, Sproul) it's a nice change.
The saving grace is the addition of Hronek to Cholowski. Together they give us two pretty good kicks at the can. But there's still a good chance Chychrun ends up the best of the three.
But that's irrelevant at this point. I'm happy with Cholowski and Hronek and am happy with their continued progress. Looks like we got 2 NHL D with good heads on their shoulders. After a long list of headcase dmen (Smith, Kindl, Sproul) it's a nice change.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Well one of the reason these players didn't get the opportunity is because for the better part of the last 20 years we've had a good/great team with better players taking the opportunity. So yeah there's been an inability draft-wise, but 20 points isn't much to strive for. D-men that can score 20+ points are available in UFA and we've found them constantly (Dekeyser, Green, Rafalski, White, Stuart etc.). Nick Jensen could probably score 20 if he gets a little PP time and a few bounces.
I watched the draft live and they definitely voiced concerns about his upside/ceiling. I can't find the video of the stream I watched, but even on this you hear a lot of concerns about his offensive IQ, how he processes the game etc.
What do you feel he needs to "put together"? It seems like he essentially needs to improve his offensive toolbox, which isn't the easiest thing to do.
Phaneuf improved his PPG each of his 4 years in WHL. He entered the NHL at 49 points and improved upon that in each of his first 3 seasons. Constant trajectory upwards. Bogosian may be a better comparison at this point in time, he entered the NHL looking pretty good but has had a hard time building upon that and has never been a big part of a good team.
Completely possible. At this point it looks like he has a lot of upside though. I wouldn't make too much of Chychrun's icetime considering how bad Arizona actually is. He was 5th-7th in TOI on that team through his first 2 seasons, and it's not like he was playing behind a stacked group on an elite team. Fairly sheltered minutes, got a decent chunk of PP time this season but had very little production. I understand it may seem like a harsh judgement on Chych, but it isn't. He's had a solid start. But when a guy looks like a 25 year old elite athlete at the draft, and displays a lack of progress in his offensive game over the course of 4 years I personally wonder how much room he actually has left to improve.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
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Confidence + opportunity + better team around him
You can end up like Phaneuf without starting like Phaneuf.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
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Poor word choice... I should have said something that popped up later as opposed to made up later.
Hence the video being on draft night and specifically in response to the fall in the draft. I don’t really remember much of that dialogue existing before that moment.
I wish him the best, and I hope we get to see Hronek this year and we can call this a win-win with Arizona and both feel good. I do believe that will be the case in the end.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Completely forgot Mike Johnson comparing him to Bogosian on draft night... 
I was throwing that out as a guy that just sort of leveled at what he was and I believed it with him for a while myself in terms of Bogo had more offense and never really did.
Interesting to hear the one on Cholowski out of Johnson which I also didn't remember... Keith Yandle. I think he has shown more defensively in terms of projection and not that kind of offense, but that did make me laugh hearing it again for the first time in a long while.
But even there by comparison you could hear on draft night the issues we are still discussing. It isn't just because hindsight and where they ended up. But I will fully admit there is a lot of fatigue on this one, Chychrun doesn't look like some star, he doesn't look to have the tools to become one. It has a real yelling at the clouds feel for me and yeah it probably helps there that I really like this trade for us. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I would do it if Datsyuk wasn't involved if you gave me the choice today. We need several NHL D-man. The two kids I am most confident about being NHL D-man in our system came from this trade. Frankly it was a godsend, if we stay and draft Chychrun we have another mediocre middle pairing in the 4-6 range playing above his head or still slow cooking with a chance to make it in training camp. Again I think Hronek and Cholowski can be middle pairing guys, they have the upside to be even more but you never know there.
Much like with Vilardi when I really believe it is Necas as the real player, I think it is interesting to talk more about Fabbro in terms of the guy I think they were more likely to take had they stayed there. Though they might have selected Cholowski anyway.
Just because some of you think they go safe and low upside doesn't mean that is actually really the case. Cholowski was obviously more of a project. But for instance Rasmussen was a ceiling gamble as well where they think he has a high ceiling from what I have heard.
I was throwing that out as a guy that just sort of leveled at what he was and I believed it with him for a while myself in terms of Bogo had more offense and never really did.
Interesting to hear the one on Cholowski out of Johnson which I also didn't remember... Keith Yandle. I think he has shown more defensively in terms of projection and not that kind of offense, but that did make me laugh hearing it again for the first time in a long while.
But even there by comparison you could hear on draft night the issues we are still discussing. It isn't just because hindsight and where they ended up. But I will fully admit there is a lot of fatigue on this one, Chychrun doesn't look like some star, he doesn't look to have the tools to become one. It has a real yelling at the clouds feel for me and yeah it probably helps there that I really like this trade for us. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I would do it if Datsyuk wasn't involved if you gave me the choice today. We need several NHL D-man. The two kids I am most confident about being NHL D-man in our system came from this trade. Frankly it was a godsend, if we stay and draft Chychrun we have another mediocre middle pairing in the 4-6 range playing above his head or still slow cooking with a chance to make it in training camp. Again I think Hronek and Cholowski can be middle pairing guys, they have the upside to be even more but you never know there.
Much like with Vilardi when I really believe it is Necas as the real player, I think it is interesting to talk more about Fabbro in terms of the guy I think they were more likely to take had they stayed there. Though they might have selected Cholowski anyway.
Just because some of you think they go safe and low upside doesn't mean that is actually really the case. Cholowski was obviously more of a project. But for instance Rasmussen was a ceiling gamble as well where they think he has a high ceiling from what I have heard.
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Pavels Dog
Registered User
Definitely, but the lack of progression in at least his offensive numbers rings alarm bells for me. But I don't want to make it seem like I'm bashing Chychrun. It's fully possible he improves from where he's at into something I'd consider more legit. And both Cholo and Hronek need to prove a lot still. I just won't regret passing on Chych if he only hovers around 20-ish points in his career. That's solid but we need more.
newfy
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His potential is more limited because the guy had the body of a 30 year old when he was 16 which allowed him to dominate at a younger age, now that players are catching up physically hes started to level out quite a bit. Important role as a rookie D in the NHL is why I feel like I have to temper expectations about Chychrun. He hasnt played an important role in the NHL yet, hes just playing in the NHL and doing OK. He was expected to step in almost right away and be a player, but his ceiling isnt expected to be high
Bogosian isnt a bad comparison from what I've seen of him in Sarnia and the NHL so far. He had a man body young and could step in right away but doesnt necessarily have that next level. Bogo is a solid NHL player but hes not what the wings need so I'm glad the higher upside guy like Cholowski was picked with the addition of Hronek. If it was Cholowski vs Chychrun 1 on 1 it might be a different story but the addition of Hronek was a no brainer and I would easlily take that package for the wings right now 10/10. They both might end up sucking but its the chance of a high end puck mover that the wings need now, not a number 4 bogosian type
Not sure why people are talking about Chychrun here, but in any case the fact the Coyotes decided to give him an NHL spot says a lot more about them--namely that their defensive depth is genuinely atrocious and that they aren't afraid to try out young players (instead of fishing for bargain-bin free agents in September), which a lot more teams should be doing--than it does about him as a prospect. Not sure why it's being used as evidence about his development curve. He performed exactly as you'd expect a good prospect thrust into the NHL on a terrible team to perform in his rookie year, which is to say he was pretty average, if not slightly worse than that. He ate up ice time because someone had to, but on virtually any other team he wouldn't have gotten a sniff of the NHL that year (because the other terrible teams would have just sent him down and signed an ageing veteran to a one-year deal, as I said).
That said, while I like Cholowski more in terms of playing style and awareness, I do think Chychrun was obviously more prepared to step into the NHL in their D+1 year. I think most of that was physical, but really, until Cholowski is in the NHL there's no basis for comparison... hence, again, my confusion as to why Chychrun is being discussed here.
That said, while I like Cholowski more in terms of playing style and awareness, I do think Chychrun was obviously more prepared to step into the NHL in their D+1 year. I think most of that was physical, but really, until Cholowski is in the NHL there's no basis for comparison... hence, again, my confusion as to why Chychrun is being discussed here.
If Chychrun was considered a first-pairing, can't miss #1 defenseman, he would have gone much higher in the draft. He was the 5th defenseman taken.
He was the most NHL-ready defensemanin the draft that year due to his physical attributes, but he was always going to fit in the second-pairing role.
I do think it's funny how people really aren't complaining about Vilardi or Liljegren anymore though. lol
He was the most NHL-ready defensemanin the draft that year due to his physical attributes, but he was always going to fit in the second-pairing role.
I do think it's funny how people really aren't complaining about Vilardi or Liljegren anymore though. lol
vladdy16
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That's on you for making those assumptions. I've read a lot of negatives on here about Chychrun that seem reasonable to me, and it's not good argumentation to assume that someone disagreeing with you has ulterior motives like being an apologist.
I honestly think people are being way too modest about Cholowskis potential around here.
Either way, I think the way each player has developed already has at least justified the trade and the picks by each team enough that this comparison can be a fun easter egg to debate and track going forward.
Too many people get caught up with a player's immediate impact potential. When Cholowski was drafted, Holland stated he was a long term project (in contrast to Chychrun). Cholo was an 18 year old in a 16 year old's body. Look at the growth he has had the past two years, 2 inches and 20+ pounds. His physical strength won't peak until he is about 24.
I don't think people factor in intelligence into the equation for success. This kid is bright. That goes a long way in learning to be successful.
Hopefully he has the drive to match.
I don't think people factor in intelligence into the equation for success. This kid is bright. That goes a long way in learning to be successful.
Hopefully he has the drive to match.
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
It seems hypocritical for folks to condemn Kenny for selecting Rasmussen because "safe pick", but then at the same time condemn Kenny for selecting Cholo because there was a "safe pick" available they could have had if not traded for two picks that resulted in possibly two higher offensive/upside dmen who may or may not make the NHL.
And the way things are looking right now, I am happy to have Cholo and Hnrok over Chychrun for the simple fact of his injuries issues and the fact that I see him as nothing more than a middle pairing guy, (which is good to have)... but not what the Wings need. Wings need impact players to build around. Cholo and Hrnek may not be that guy, but who knows... they could be and we already know Chychrun is not.
For Detroit, (my hindsight analysis says) I think the risk of Cholo and Hrnk both busting out-weighs drafting a middle pairing guy with possible long term injury issues.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
The entire Wings fanbase has PTSD from so many d-prospects turning into nothing.
