Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

[True Blue]

The Zodiac was highly intelligent and had the ability to outsmart his opponents.

That sort of misses the point that was being made

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

The funny thing is that many of the people “defending” Quinn aren’t even huge fans. I think they feel criticism is warranted and have plenty of their own.

But the conversations become so over the top that there becomes this battle to almost steer it back into a realm grounded in reality rather than having it feel like a WWF promo class.

The result is that there are topics that make people look like they’re bigger fans of something than they are, when in reality they just aren’t as far to one side of an issue as some of the more vocal members are.

That’s not necessarily unique to DQ. It happens with players all the time as well. The more certain ideas are pushed, the easier it becomes to exaggerate and stretch some of those points, the more likely the resistance is going to be.

Yup. Among the current players on our squad, I'm there with Trouba and Gauthier. I feel the need to keep reminding folks that the former is not, and was never signed to be a 1D, but a solid 2D; while with the latter, I'm not claiming he's anything more than a project, but given the tools, I think he's a project worth pursuing. But it gets tiresome to add those caveats to every post when rebutting critiques, especially when so many of those critiques go the other way and make strawman arguments like Trouba's a failure because he's not playing like prime Drew Doughty.

EDIT: Regarding Quinn specifically, I'm also in the middle (I think he's a very good developmental coach, and lacking on the Xs and Os), but this thread is already so exhausting – and every coach will always get criticized game to game by armchair quarterbacks – so I've stayed out of it.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Stating that there are things that can be blamed falls a tad short of "absolving Quinn for just about everything", don't you think? Or are you just upset that I am not trying to pin the Kennedy assassination on him?

It's the "he has no system" and "he's ruining the kids" nonsense that's unbearable. And then when you point to the players that are thriving here, it's bs excuses like, they played in college, they were already good when they got here.

 

[kovazub94]

It's the "he has no system" and "he's ruining the kids" nonsense that's unbearable. And then when you point to the players that are thriving here, it's bs excuses like, they played in college, they were already good when they got here.

As a counter point I will use that Kakko and Lafreniere were ruined by their Finnish and CHL junior coaches respectively for not teaching them to play the right way. Sounds ridiculous? It meant to be.

 

[bl02]

That sort of misses the point that was being made

I know I know but I couldn’t resist

 

[BroadwayStorm]

It's the "he has no system" and "he's ruining the kids" nonsense that's unbearable. And then when you point to the players that are thriving here, it's bs excuses like, they played in college, they were already good when they got here.

It's not nonsense

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It's not nonsense

Tell me how they don't have a system.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Trust me when I tell you I'm pretty indifferent to Quinn as the Rangers head coach and won't cry foul if he's relieved. What gives me agita is all the nonsense thrown against Quinn. I kinda wish that Staal was still on the team and dragged down whatever pair he was on, so you could at least redirect your attention there.

This is well said.

What I have with an issue is the simplistic, change the coach and everything will change mentality. Maybe mentality will debunked now that Kruger has been fired.

I also have an issue with the immediate dismissal of the idea that the irregular seasons and Covid have had on this team and its development because "every team is dealing with that." If someone can't see that all teams are different, I don't even know how to address that thinking.

Maybe they should just fire Quinn so we can go back to blaming Tanner Glass.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Yup. Among the current players on our squad, I'm there with Trouba and Gauthier. I feel the need to keep reminding folks that the former is not, and was never signed to be a 1D, but a solid 2D; while with the latter, I'm not claiming he's anything more than a project, but given the tools, I think he's a project worth pursuing. But it gets tiresome to add those caveats to every post when rebutting critiques, especially when so many of those critiques go the other way and make strawman arguments like Trouba's a failure because he's not playing like prime Drew Doughty.

EDIT: Regarding Quinn specifically, I'm also in the middle (I think he's a very good developmental coach, and lacking on the Xs and Os), but this thread is already so exhausting – and every coach will always get criticized game to game by armchair quarterbacks – so I've stayed out of it.

I'm OK with Trouba, and have spent a bunch time the past two seasons defending him, but look at his contract and tell me he wasn't signed to be a 1D. Whether that's on Trouba for not meeting realistic expectations or on management for failing to properly evaluate the player and his value, it's a 1D contract. And it's really not a good thing in the long-term to have so much cap space tied up in a players who aren't worth that money.

Personally, I've shifted a lot of my skepticism away from Quinn towards management the last few weeks. I'm not super concerned with them or anything, but the vision has blurred, and some of the same problems have repeated themselves: bad cap management being the main one.

I'm just not sure at all what the priorities are. If we're all in to win as much and as soon as possible, why are Kakko, Lafreniere, and especially Miller untouchable and why was resigning Zibanejad still a question mark at the end of last season? OTOH, if we're more invested in those players as our future,why doesn't Chytil play with Panarin or Buchnevich after the first few games of the season when he's vastly outperforming Zibanejad and Strome? Why is Kakko less likely to see PP time than Brett Howden before he went down with COVID while being our most consistent forward for a couple weeks?

Maybe the Rangers are going for a Detroit Red Wings style dynasty where franchise talents like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are maybe the best defensive forwards in the league rather than top 5 scorers. Maybe they are just deeply patient and don't expect or want these players to 'pop' until 4 or 5 years out. I admit that I just don't get it.

If Buchnevich and Strome are moved at the deadline, things will start making more sense to me. If Buchnevich is re-signed, I'll really be confused.

 

[eco's bones]

The numbers aren’t there but everything else from Kakko this year has been a step forward. On comparisons being made to Hughes I don’t worry about Hughes overmuch. The situation in New Jersey is different from ours and the same might be said for Stutzle and Ottawa. They have less top end talent. They are forced to go to them more. Kaapo’s defensive play has certainly improved and I see him driving or trying to drive play a lot more this year.

 

[SA16]

Would Buffalo give us permission to speak to Krueger if Gorton/JD are looking for a new coach?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Would Buffalo give us permission to speak to Krueger if Gorton/JD are looking for a new coach?

Why would they have to?

 

[DanielBrassard]

I'm OK with Trouba, and have spent a bunch time the past two seasons defending him, but look at his contract and tell me he wasn't signed to be a 1D. Whether that's on Trouba for not meeting realistic expectations or on management for failing to properly evaluate the player and his value, it's a 1D contract. And it's really not a good thing in the long-term to have so much cap space tied up in a players who aren't worth that money.

Personally, I've shifted a lot of my skepticism away from Quinn towards management the last few weeks. I'm not super concerned with them or anything, but the vision has blurred, and some of the same problems have repeated themselves: bad cap management being the main one.

I'm just not sure at all what the priorities are. If we're all in to win as much and as soon as possible, why are Kakko, Lafreniere, and especially Miller untouchable and why was resigning Zibanejad still a question mark at the end of last season? OTOH, if we're more invested in those players as our future,why doesn't Chytil play with Panarin or Buchnevich after the first few games of the season when he's vastly outperforming Zibanejad and Strome? Why is Kakko less likely to see PP time than Brett Howden before he went down with COVID while being our most consistent forward for a couple weeks?

Maybe the Rangers are going for a Detroit Red Wings style dynasty where franchise talents like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are maybe the best defensive forwards in the league rather than top 5 scorers. Maybe they are just deeply patient and don't expect or want these players to 'pop' until 4 or 5 years out. I admit that I just don't get it.

If Buchnevich and Strome are moved at the deadline, things will start making more sense to me. If Buchnevich is re-signed, I'll really be confused.

Nice post, very much with you on most of it, but especially on Trouba. The idea that the Rangers traded for him not to be a #1 but to be a #2D seems like total revisionist history to me. Just look at the Rangers defense at the time, Skjei, ADA, Shattenkirk (who ended up being bought out), Smith, Staal, and Fox who hadn't played in the NHL. Not to mention why in the hell would you give a guy who you thought was a #2 the contract they gave to Trouba? Clearly the Rangers vision for him was to be a #1 defenseman on this team. Luckily he has had a much improved year so far so the contract isn't as disastrous as it was last season.

 

[True Blue]

It's the "he has no system" and "he's ruining the kids" nonsense that's unbearable. And then when you point to the players that are thriving here, it's bs excuses like, they played in college, they were already good when they got here.

You did not see all the development that Miller's high school coach gave him?

 

[duhmetreE]

But here's the thing, just because you don't like some of the counterpoints doesn't mean they aren't there.

Just like my belief that the kids aren't going to get powerplay time over Panarin, Kreider, Zibanejad, Buch and even Strome doesn't invalidate your counterpoint. I would like to see that on a personal level, but I know that's not likely right now.

I like the growth I'm visually seeing from certain guys, and the underlying data many are producing. I like what I'm seeing from Chytil. I like significantly more of what I'm seeing form Kakko and Laf than I dislike. Etc. etc.

Unfortunately, that's what a debate comes down to. We're often of the opinion on a topic because we agree with some points and don't agree with the counterpoints.

I mean, I can certainly re-state the things I don't like with Quinn. Because I have my own list. I just don't know if I agree with percentage of the blame he's been assigned.

It's one of those same church, different pew type situations.

I don’t agree with them because the counterpoints are irrelevant to the original topic or extremely selective then dismissive. I understand fully what’s being said.

In the macro it makes sense not to play the kids on the PP, with how our vets played last year. In the micro? after actually watching them play and how they’ve been producing? Giving Blackwell more opportunity over Laf? Isn’t this about helping the kids grow? Or is that only for defense

I brought up all those points and one was refuted. We will agree to disagree to that one point. What about all the other points? Refuting one negates the rest? what is the counterpoint in the setup? You agree or disagree? 5v5 ozone game plan? Transition?

 

[eco's bones]

This is well said.

What I have with an issue is the simplistic, change the coach and everything will change mentality. Maybe mentality will debunked now that Kruger has been fired.

I also have an issue with the immediate dismissal of the idea that the irregular seasons and Covid have had on this team and its development because "every team is dealing with that." If someone can't see that all teams are different, I don't even know how to address that thinking.

Maybe they should just fire Quinn so we can go back to blaming Tanner Glass.

It’s like there’s always got to be someone to be blamed and to be hated on. It seems like we always have the worst player in the league on our team so why wouldn’t we always have a terrible coach too?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

It’s like there’s always got to be someone to be blamed and to be hated on. It seems like we always have the worst player in the league on our team so why wouldn’t we always have a terrible coach too?

Of course. Because it's easy.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You did not see all the development that Miller's high school coach gave him?

I was told he exited the womb already capable of a zone entry.

 

[kovazub94]

It’s like there’s always got to be someone to be blamed and to be hated on. It seems like we always have the worst player in the league on our team so why wouldn’t we always have a terrible coach too?

Miserable f***s will miserable f*** everything around them.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I don’t agree with them because the counterpoints are irrelevant to the original topic or extremely selective then dismissive. I understand fully what’s being said.

In the macro it makes sense not to play the kids on the PP, with how our vets played last year. In the micro? after actually watching them play and how they’ve been producing? Giving Blackwell more opportunity over Laf? Isn’t this about helping the kids grow? Or is that only for defense

I brought up all those points and one was refuted. We will agree to disagree to that one point. What about all the other points? Refuting one negates the rest? what is the counterpoint in the setup? You agree or disagree? 5v5 ozone game plan? Transition?

Blackwell earns his ice time. If Laf were smart he'd watch Blackwell so he learns what competing for a puck actually looks like. Very, very, very few players get by on just talent alone in this league. Especially a 19 year old rookie.

 

[True Blue]

I'm OK with Trouba, and have spent a bunch time the past two seasons defending him, but look at his contract and tell me he wasn't signed to be a 1D. Whether that's on Trouba for not meeting realistic expectations or on management for failing to properly evaluate the player and his value, it's a 1D contract. And it's really not a good thing in the long-term to have so much cap space tied up in a players who aren't worth that money.

He's not. He was signed to be the #2 defenseman he always was. Look around the league at top pairing d-men and that is what was market rate.

I'm just not sure at all what the priorities are. If we're all in to win as much and as soon as possible, why are Kakko, Lafreniere, and especially Miller untouchable and why was resigning Zibanejad still a question mark at the end of last season? OTOH, if we're more invested in those players as our future,why doesn't Chytil play with Panarin or Buchnevich after the first few games of the season when he's vastly outperforming Zibanejad and Strome? Why is Kakko less likely to see PP time than Brett Howden before he went down with COVID while being our most consistent forward for a couple weeks?

There has been absolutely nothing to indicate that the team is in it to win as soon as possible and be a win now team (trade for Eichel and that changes, however). The players that are untouchable should b entering their prime when the team firmly opens its window. That is why they are untouchable.

Resigning Mika was tricky because of his injury history.

While patience is being preached, that is not the same thing as avoiding the desire to make the playoffs. That is why Chytil was playing where he was. It is also about earning the right. Now his play has showed that he is taking steps forward. That was an unknown in the first few games of the seaon.

And come on. Kakko vs Howden for power play time? Really?

Maybe the Rangers are going for a Detroit Red Wings style dynasty where franchise talents like Datsyuk and Zetterberg are maybe the best defensive forwards in the league rather than top 5 scorers. Maybe they are just deeply patient and don't expect or want these players to 'pop' until 4 or 5 years out. I admit that I just don't get it.

Would it be really bad if the team turned out like Detroit and had its best players be two way players? I see that as only a win.

And not expecting rookies to be super stars or even top liners out of the gate seems to be the prudent and realistic thing to expect.

If Buchnevich and Strome are moved at the deadline, things will start making more sense to me. If Buchnevich is re-signed, I'll really be confused.

Confused about having a 26 year old top line, 60ish point wing? What is so confusing?

 

[True Blue]

I was told he exited the womb already capable of a zone entry.

Fox certainly did. I mean everyone KNEW that he was so elite, that he was drafted in the third round. And then Carolina knew that he was SO elite, that they traded him for a pair of second round picks. This board certainly knew how elite he was back then.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I don’t agree with them because the counterpoints are irrelevant to the original topic or extremely selective then dismissive. I understand fully what’s being said.

In the macro it makes sense not to play the kids on the PP, with how our vets played last year. In the micro? after actually watching them play and how they’ve been producing? Giving Blackwell more opportunity over Laf? Isn’t this about helping the kids grow? Or is that only for defense

I brought up all those points and one was refuted. We will agree to disagree to that one point. What about all the other points? Refuting one negates the rest? what is the counterpoint in the setup? You agree or disagree? 5v5 ozone game plan? Transition?

I think most people are in agreement about the PP time. And who you quoted has explicitly said he's very frustrated by it this year.

As to the other points, it's just a weird list, kind of hard to respond to.

I do not like David Quinns o-zone perimeter gameplan.
Limited space and time created; middle of the ice not utilized
I disliked our PP setup from game 1, personnel has been a recent issue.
I would like some of our kids to get more PP time.
Our transition, or lack there of, hurts skill players.
We do not play like a team that practices

1) You've assumed from the start there is a gameplan deliberately put in place to stay to the perimeter, despite Quinn repeating ad nauseum over the last three seasons his hopes for players to get to the net, 'that's how goals in this league are scored,' etc. So, I do disagree that this is a gameplan or strategy issue. It's clearly one of Quinn's priorities for his forwards. What to respond to then, is something other than your concern, and it's to ask whether or not the Rangers actually execute this priority. Your answer, clearly, is no. Mine would be yes, but in the wrong ways.

2) Watching other teams, I disagree that the Rangers don't create time and space for themselves relative to the league. Our defensemen especially all excel in either being Adam Fox, or mimic his patience as best they can (with varying results on a scale of Lindgren to Smith). Even the concern about a perimeter gameplan would contradict this to my mind. If you're deliberately trying to stay to the outside, and by all accounts doing that, then what else would you get yourself than time and space?

3/4) This was responded to. Some people think the personnel deserves more opportunity to turn it around, some are equally frustrated, some think the PP is actually good but just unlucky.

5) Which skill players? Panarin and Strome have excelled. Zibanejad gets most of his chances on the rush. Buchnevich has thrived. We get up the ice with speed and control pretty frequently. We don't get up with numbers as often, and our forechecking is very weak. Is that a transition issue exactly?

6) How could anyone respond to this?

 

[Off Sides]

I'm thinking Laff is just not really NHL ready. Much like Kakko last year was not.

Before people hate that, Laff is the 2nd youngest NHL player this season, just because he was drafted #1, why does that make him NHL ready?

Kakko last year was the 4th youngest, 2nd youngest of anyone who played more than 8 games, again I'm not sold he was ready.

 

[Tawnos]

1) You've assumed from the start there is a gameplan deliberately put in place to stay to the perimeter, despite Quinn repeating ad nauseum over the last three seasons his hopes for players to get to the net, 'that's how goals in this league are scored,' etc. So, I do disagree that this is a gameplan or strategy issue. It's clearly one of Quinn's priorities for his forwards. What to respond to then, is something other than your concern, and it's to ask whether or not the Rangers actually execute this priority. Your answer, clearly, is no. Mine would be yes, but in the wrong ways.

I literally made this exact point a couple of weeks ago, but now this counterpoint has never been made.