Confirmed with Link: Datsyuk re-signs for 3 years 22.5m/7.5 per year cap hit

[odin1981]

You may be spoiled, Odin. But I'm not.
I consider spoiled to be derogatory.

I think fans want to win. If not immediately, they want to see a path to victory.

I don't care if you're the Chicago Cubs or Detroit Red Wings.

I don't consider spoiled to be derogatory. I wasn't refering to anyone in the thread either it was more a generalization of what detroit fans have gotten used to.

Granted late 90's rw teams and early 00's where chock full of talent due to lack of a salary cap. From say 2005 on it is about wisely managing contracts and getting your team deep as possible in addition to your elite or better contracts. Granted a post salary cap team will in no way be comparable to a pre cap.

In addition to the fact that teams have caught up to the fact we had first in that you need to scout everywhere not just in n. america anymore. It is not impossible but it is highly unlikely that we find a 5th round or later "diamond" anymore. Due to those diamonds being more well known about and getting picked in the appropriate position given to their evident talents.

As to why I feel generally that detroit fans our "spoiled" is we have had a run of a generation where we have found in good/great quantities of elite or better players and developed them correctly. I don't believe our prospects are hurting right now but I agree we at most have 1 "potential" blue chipper atm (ironhook and he I see atm as 2nd line center potential would love to see him go beyond that but at the moment thats as far as I can go without making a ass outside of myself).

I liek that you feel strongly about Sproul sportsballcic but I believe he gets a bit too much hype personally. Not saying he is a bust but if he develops accordingly given our system I don't see him being more than a yandle/green/letang player type. If his defensive talent doesn't come along I would gladly "brent burns" him and convert him to a winger.

But he will never sniff the defensive level of weber and in all reality after next year I believe it is gonna be fairly evident that suter made weber. Granted weber is not terrible on his side of the blueline but this year showed that he isn't anywhere near as good as most thought. And outside of josi developing greatly this off season it will be known in as little as next year he was overhyped due to actually having a "real" defensive defensemen cover him. Now sproul could have a slap shot that will rival weber but one comparable quality does not make a good comparison that not just you but other people as well throw out.

I''m not as doom and glooming as some/most our that pick up that side of the argument. But I understand the reality of our present situation we have at most this season and next to make a run anytime soon. In all reality I don't believe that will happen next year. 14-15 maybe depending on the growth of (jurco, ouelette, nyquist, tatar, andersson, sheahan, ferraro, and maybe callahan but I'm stretching with that one as well as almquivst though I do feel he is promising though 1st ahl year on the first pairing I think shows his promise though I understand everyone who values the canadian style of play will **** on him at any and every point due to him not having that playstyle).

 

[SportsballChic]

I don't consider spoiled to be derogatory. I wasn't refering to anyone in the thread either it was more a generalization of what detroit fans have gotten used to.

Granted late 90's rw teams and early 00's where chock full of talent due to lack of a salary cap. From say 2005 on it is about wisely managing contracts and getting your team deep as possible in addition to your elite or better contracts. Granted a post salary cap team will in no way be comparable to a pre cap.

In addition to the fact that teams have caught up to the fact we had first in that you need to scout everywhere not just in n. america anymore. It is not impossible but it is highly unlikely that we find a 5th round or later "diamond" anymore. Due to those diamonds being more well known about and getting picked in the appropriate position given to their evident talents.

As to why I feel generally that detroit fans our "spoiled" is we have had a run of a generation where we have found in good/great quantities of elite or better players and developed them correctly. I don't believe our prospects are hurting right now but I agree we at most have 1 "potential" blue chipper atm (ironhook and he I see atm as 2nd line center potential would love to see him go beyond that but at the moment thats as far as I can go without making a ass outside of myself).

I liek that you feel strongly about Sproul sportsballcic but I believe he gets a bit too much hype personally. Not saying he is a bust but if he develops accordingly given our system I don't see him being more than a yandle/green/letang player type. If his defensive talent doesn't come along I would gladly "brent burns" him and convert him to a winger.

But he will never sniff the defensive level of weber and in all reality after next year I believe it is gonna be fairly evident that suter made weber. Granted weber is not terrible on his side of the blueline but this year showed that he isn't anywhere near as good as most thought. And outside of josi developing greatly this off season it will be known in as little as next year he was overhyped due to actually having a "real" defensive defensemen cover him. Now sproul could have a slap shot that will rival weber but one comparable quality does not make a good comparison that not just you but other people as well throw out.

I''m not as doom and glooming as some/most our that pick up that side of the argument. But I understand the reality of our present situation we have at most this season and next to make a run anytime soon. In all reality I don't believe that will happen next year. 14-15 maybe depending on the growth of (jurco, ouelette, nyquist, tatar, andersson, sheahan, ferraro, and maybe callahan but I'm stretching with that one as well as almquivst though I do feel he is promising though 1st ahl year on the first pairing I think shows his promise though I understand everyone who values the canadian style of play will **** on him at any and every point due to him not having that playstyle).

See my thought is this: We *could* make the conference finals next year, anything can happen from there. I do agree with you though, 2014-15 will be much more likely and since I figure Sproul won't be "the man" until he's had some seasoning; I might even go so far as to say our "real" Cup contender team is looking like 2015-16. I just don't see why a 2 year bridge is a big enough deal to... justify letting Pavel walk? That's crazy talk!

re: defensive level. If there's anything guys like Lidstrom and Rafalski taught me it's that there's a lot more than one way to be an effective defender. I do concede that Sproul might be ACTIVELY bad at defense right now sometimes tho; he's clearly improved but I saw some stuff on film that would make Babcock bench him for entire games still from *this* year. His offensive game is ridiculous though and like I said, I don't think he needs to magically turn into Vladdy to become a good defender. It takes all kinds, etc

I'm not looking to pick a fight, I even like a little "sauce" in my discussion ya know? I just got a little touchy when guy basically called me a bootlicker

 

[odin1981]

Its cool I understand how faceless people on the internet can get you to .

Don't get me wrong i'm not coming down hard on sproul. Its just that I see it pointless to project how he will play at higher levels above ahl/khl/sel when all he has under his belt is chl time.

I am excited to see how he, jensen, marchenko, and ouelette will do next year in the ahl. It will allow us a much more objective path to how he goes/fits his game into professional leagues. I also am not expecting him to be a def-d. I hope him to become basically a bigger, right handed shot accurate point shot, 2 way defensmen. In other words a better kronwall. But I feel he will have atleast 4-5 years of development before he could project to a "impact" (in my eyes impact is second pairing or better defensemen with a special teams role both is obviously preferred) player for the red wings.

I feel he will need at least 2 if not 3 years of ahl time and 2-3 years of nhl seasoning so call it 2.5 seasons of each and that is if no hitches or crooks knock him off his development track.

It is probabley way too early to accuratly gauge but I see dekeyser and marchenko as our defensive types, ouelette, backman, and almquivst as our two way types, and sproul and jensen as our off-d types. Granted I would like to see the 4 above mentioned become 2-way instead of off-d but the looking glass is way to dark and murky at the moment due to a crap ton of developement needed for all of the above at a proffesional level before I would dare take a firm hard stance on what they will become.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Okay #1) I'm new here as you can see by the postcount and the helpful Rookie User badge. I'm trying to make friends; that's what you do when you're new.

#2) I meant the thread as a whole not just your post, people are extremely negative. I get it. I was there last year. It doesn't make much sense to me right now tho and I've said why.

If we're in the realm of "woulda, coulda, shoulda" then if the regular season "woulda" been 82 games; absolutely NONE of this conversation is relevant then. Have some faith. Or don't but don't yell at me for saying "ya'll are a bunch of downers and I disagree with your opinion."

Thanks.

Edit - Also: ya'll are some ungrateful SoBs. Guys like Pav and Lidstrom can play for my team until they WANT to retire; I don't much care who thinks they're "overrated". Also, yes; 7.5 million scares me but NOT as much as ppl who want to blow up the team because "we aren't getting there in 2013-14".

We aren't getting there in 2013-14 without serious improvement. We're scraping to get in the playoffs and our fate will continue to sink as Datsyuk and Zetterberg decline unless we find a new star center or change our entire MO

 

[Fugu]

Doom & Gloom?

Are you trying to ingratiate yourself with the "anti-naysayer" crowd?

If you're going to say Detroit, losing in round two, was one game away from making the conference finals -- where they would have magically broomed away the cup champs somehow ---

How in the hell is it "doom and gloom" to just cite the plain truth --- that the other side of that equation involves the Red Wings not beating the Ducks or even making the playoffs.

I mean, assuming you're trying to make an honest, somewhat fair assessment ...

As for "league parity" I'd say that the concept is totally overblown.

And all the stuff about how great we are after losing Lidstrom and Stuart --
All us "naysaying doom and gloomers" have been telling you that Lidstrom was overrated around here for quite awhile now.

It's not totally overblown. The one thing that really skews things is entering the cap system while having drafted back to back #1's derived under the old system. When everyone has had to live under parity for a while, things will get even more interesting. This new CBA has closed some loopholes.

Not all the naysayers (me being a critic of Babs and Holland more recently) believe Lids was overrated. Sure, he wasn't as elite, but he was still much better than anyone else on this team and most teams, not even close.

I'm not looking to pick a fight, I even like a little "sauce" in my discussion ya know? I just got a little touchy when guy basically called me a bootlicker

Welcome to HFB again. I see you've met RedWingsNow. He likes some sauce in his discussions too, and yes, he believes too many people here aren't critical enough of management. Just figured I'd save you a headache or two by stating that upfront.

 

[SportsballChic]

Its cool I understand how faceless people on the internet can get you to .

Don't get me wrong i'm not coming down hard on sproul. Its just that I see it pointless to project how he will play at higher levels above ahl/khl/sel when all he has under his belt is chl time.

I am excited to see how he, jensen, marchenko, and ouelette will do next year in the ahl. It will allow us a much more objective path to how he goes/fits his game into professional leagues. I also am not expecting him to be a def-d. I hope him to become basically a bigger, right handed shot accurate point shot, 2 way defensmen. In other words a better kronwall. But I feel he will have atleast 4-5 years of development before he could project to a "impact" (in my eyes impact is second pairing or better defensemen with a special teams role both is obviously preferred) player for the red wings.

I feel he will need at least 2 if not 3 years of ahl time and 2-3 years of nhl seasoning so call it 2.5 seasons of each and that is if no hitches or crooks knock him off his development track.

It is probabley way too early to accuratly gauge but I see dekeyser and marchenko as our defensive types, ouelette, backman, and almquivst as our two way types, and sproul and jensen as our off-d types. Granted I would like to see the 4 above mentioned become 2-way instead of off-d but the looking glass is way to dark and murky at the moment due to a crap ton of developement needed for all of the above at a proffesional level before I would dare take a firm hard stance on what they will become.

Lol, well, I hope you're wrong about the 5 year bake time on Sproul if only because the things he can do with a puck right now make me salivate.

I guess my thinking is that part of the reasons the prospects who are breaking into the system now (Tatar, Nyquist in particular) took so long, is that their size/lack of familiarity with "Canadian Hockey" made them longer term projects. Combined with the glut of talent up front for the most part and 4 year AHL stints make sense.

In this case though A) I believe the next wave of talent is either better or at very least more physically suited to playing earlier (bigger, stronger, more North American experience) and B) obviously the glut of talent at forward isn't what it used to be. In theory it should be a lot easier to beat out a guy like Dan Cleary for a roster spot than it was to beat out say... Brett Hull.

Maybe wishful thinking on the part of a fan? Yeah I'll concede that. But watching Backman and Sproul on film in particular I didn't get the impression they were "years and years" away from being impact players. I've got my eye on 2015-16.

Unrelated: I'm also pretty excited for Tinky Winky (and I guess Landon Ferraro but career 3rd line/PK guy) in 2014

 

[SportsballChic]

We aren't getting there in 2013-14 without serious improvement. We're scraping to get in the playoffs and our fate will continue to sink as Datsyuk and Zetterberg decline unless we find a new star center or change our entire MO

Okay. I'm unsure how else I can respond. I think we're going to be a 4th or 5th seed with a real chance at making the Conference Finals.

Can we still be friends or is this a duel to the death kinda thing?

 

[SportsballChic]

Welcome to HFB again. I see you've met RedWingsNow. He likes some sauce in his discussions too, and yes, he believes too many people here aren't critical enough of management. Just figured I'd save you a headache or two by stating that upfront.

I'm learning as I go man I'll survive, it's not easy being the new kid

 

[Bench]

I'm trying to make friends; that's what you do when you're new.

Meet me in the garage for some karate. That's how most of us stay centered here.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

Is it hot in here?

I think i just blue myself...

 

[Frk It]

All us "naysaying doom and gloomers" have been telling you that Lidstrom was overrated around here for quite awhile now

No, that's literally just you.

The result of our defense doing well this year in terms of GAA was strictly due to a system and style change defensively. Which is also why our breakout sucked all year and we struggled to score goals for stretches at a time.

If anything this year should have showed us how valuable a guy like Lidstrom is when you have him.

 

[Bench]

If anything this year should have showed us how valuable a guy like Lidstrom is when you have him.

Absolutely. Defensive scoring plummeted to the bottom of the NHL and Ian White disappeared from the face of the Earth.

 

[SoupNazi]

I'm learning as I go man I'll survive, it's not easy being the new kid

Welcome to the board. It's a nice place, generally.

 

[SportsballChic]

Aww, thanks guys.

Peace offering? :

That always makes even the grumpiest Wings fan smile right?

 

[Frk It]

Aww, thanks guys.

Peace offering? :

That always makes even the grumpiest Wings fan smile right?

You'll have to learn to roll with the punches (and crazy opinions )

 

[RedWingsNow*]

It's not totally overblown. The one thing that really skews things is entering the cap system while having drafted back to back #1's derived under the old system. When everyone has had to live under parity for a while, things will get even more interesting. This new CBA has closed some loopholes.

And yet,,, who were the five final teams still in the playoffs this year:
LA
Boston
Chicago
Pittsburg
Detroit
Who also happen to be the five previous cup winners.

And who were the teams who didn't make the playoffs? Well, start in the southeast, and follow along the trail of non-traditional markets.

The cap for next year is $64M and the floor is $44M

Given the competition for players, there is still a big difference between the haves and have nots.

And NHL results are a leading indication of that.

Not all the naysayers (me being a critic of Babs and Holland more recently) believe Lids was overrated. Sure, he wasn't as elite, but he was still much better than anyone else on this team and most teams, not even close.

But, of course, Lidstrom apologists were saying as late as early last year that he was the most important player on the team, or the MVP, or even the best defenseman in the NHL.
That's what I mean by overrated.

Welcome to HFB again. I see you've met RedWingsNow. He likes some sauce in his discussions too, and yes, he believes too many people here aren't critical enough of management. Just figured I'd save you a headache or two by stating that upfront.

I believe that people aren't critical enough about most things in life. Critical thinking shouldn't be perceived so negatively. Critical thinking leads to positive outcomes.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Aww, thanks guys.

Peace offering? :

That always makes even the grumpiest Wings fan smile right?

Please show that picture to Kronwall

 

[Heaton]

We would've beaten Chicago with Lidstrom in the lineup.

 

[Frk It]

We would've beaten Chicago with Lidstrom in the lineup.

I'd put my paycheck on that.

edit: well i guess depends the age lol

 

[RedWingsNow*]

We would've beaten Chicago with Lidstrom in the lineup.

I was thinking if we had Yzerman, we'd beat Chicago and then beat LA so bad that they would just give us the Cup before the finals -- because we're so awesome.

Maybe we would have lost to Anaheim with Lidstrom in the lineup.

Lidstrom helped us win one whole game last year.

 

[Heaton]

Our team was better in the post season this year than last year. Our biggest problem was defensive breakdowns. Lidstrom would've minimized those greatly.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

And yet,,, who were the five final teams still in the playoffs this year:
LA
Boston
Chicago
Pittsburg
Detroit
Who also happen to be the five previous cup winners.

And who were the teams who didn't make the playoffs? Well, start in the southeast, and follow along the trail of non-traditional markets.

The cap for next year is $64M and the floor is $44M

Given the competition for players, there is still a big difference between the haves and have nots.

And NHL results are a leading indication of that.




But, of course, Lidstrom apologists were saying as late as early last year that he was the most important player on the team, or the MVP, or even the best defenseman in the NHL.
That's what I mean by overrated.




I believe that people aren't critical enough about most things in life. Critical thinking shouldn't be perceived so negatively. Critical thinking leads to positive outcomes.

You should use your critical thinking to reevaluate the positves of having your top defenseman put himself in jeopardy of injury and the sin bin.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Our team was better in the post season this year than last year. Our biggest problem was defensive breakdowns. Lidstrom would've minimized those greatly.

Lidstrom was also quite a bit slower than any of the defensemen we had in our lineup.
And another year older, another year slower.

One place where Lidstrom really could have helped was outlet passing

 

[Heaton]

Lidstrom was also quite a bit slower than any of the defensemen we had in our lineup.
And another year older, another year slower.

One place where Lidstrom really could have helped was outlet passing

yeah but the difference between lidstrom playing vs colaiacovo or lashoff? granted it could've meant dekeyser didn't play as much, but that's still a trade off i take for this past postseason.

 

[redwings85]

Take that you naysayers you!

I am happy to see Datsyuk sign his extension now.