Confirmed with Link: Datsyuk re-signs for 3 years 22.5m/7.5 per year cap hit

[Cursed Lemon]

If Scenario A is 3 years of "sneaking into the playoffs, going out of after round 1 or 2 or barely missing them in the first place" while you pay a late career veteran 7.5 million a year and also stop younger players from stepping into that role then it's 3 lost years for the franchise and 3 lost years for Pavel Datsyuk.

Scenario B has the team worse but then this league is set up to punish the middle, the top is rewarded by banners and rings, the bottom is assisted by all sorts of artifices to make sure they get to the top again. The NHL internally is run like a welfare state and the middle-class is the one that sees least of the benefits because it's not generally a "problem" that someone thinks they have to address.

That is why being "sort of an OK team" that can "maybe make some noise in the playoffs" is a terrible idea and one of the worst places to be - especially if your star players are on the wrong side of their career ceiling. Worse is better in the NHL *unless* you are planning to cheat the mechanisms of the league but then you need to be pro-active, you can't sit on your roster like you're married to it when all the signs point toward mediocrity or worse.

All I said was that Holland needs to be pro-active, if he sits on this roster and that includes Datsyuk then this team is heading for an era of mediocrity that will keep Holland collecting paychecks but make fans wonder a decade down the road where those years went.

I suppose this is where you'll explain how hoarding a bunch of decent 2nd-3rd liners (which we already have MORE than a surplus of) while letting go of a superstar will somehow catapult us to Cup-favorite status.

Or maybe we should trade Zetterberg too.

 

[bababooeyII]

There is no ufa available that I want more than Datsyuk. There is probably not even a player or two that I would want over Datsyuk in all the NHL. So signing Datsyuk to me is as close to a no brainer as this organization can ever get. It's really simple, when Datsyuk said he wanted to come back for 3 years, you make it happen as an organization there is no second thoughts or what ifs, you just do it.

 

[Fugu]

All I said was that Holland needs to be pro-active, if he sits on this roster and that includes Datsyuk then this team is heading for an era of mediocrity that will keep Holland collecting paychecks but make fans wonder a decade down the road where those years went.

I think what you're saying is that Holland should let Datsyuk go after next year, and/or trade him for--- future assets?

I kinda think that guy he should have done that with is someone like Filppula. I think I understand your sentiment, but if I look at this from the perspective of being a fan and that this is an entertainment business, I can't see how you decide to be the GM that lets Datsyuk leave. He makes the team and everyone around him better. I'd trade Zetterberg and Franzen before I'd tough Dats. You simply can't find that kind of player via trade or UFA routes, and you certainly aren't guaranteed that you can find someone like him in the draft.

It also tells fans that you're blowing up the entire thing. If he did as you suggest, he shouldn't stop with Datsyuk, but buy out or trade Zetterberg and Franzen, let Filppula et. al leave and build around the next generation-- whoever that might be.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Datsyuk is my favorite player. I'm glad he's back
But:

Here are some other great centers protection at 36, 37, and 38

Yzerman - 48, 8, 51
Fedorov - 42, 41, 33
Larionov - 40, 48, 28
Gretzky - 90, 62, --
Lemieux - 91, 9, 22
Sakic -- 87, 100, 40
Weight -- 25, 38, 17
Oates -- 54, 71, 82
Sundin -- 78, 28, --
Messier -- 58, 33, 30
Trottier -- 15, --, --
Dionne -- 65, 23, --
Hawerchuk -----------
Perreault -------------

So Oates and Sakic... otherwise, players are a shadow of what they were in their prime.

 

[Heaton]

Datsyuk is my favorite player. I'm glad he's back
But:

Here are some other great centers protection at 36, 37, and 38

Yzerman - 48, 8, 51
Fedorov - 42, 41, 33
Larionov - 40, 48, 28
Gretzky - 90, 62, --
Lemieux - 91, 9, 22
Sakic -- 87, 100, 40
Weight -- 25, 38, 17
Oates -- 54, 71, 82
Sundin -- 78, 28, --
Messier -- 58, 33, 30
Trottier -- 15, --, --
Dionne -- 65, 23, --
Hawerchuk -----------
Perreault -------------

So Oates and Sakic... otherwise, players are a shadow of what they were in their prime.

Are we limiting it to centers because we feel centers have a much harder job than wingers?

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Are we limiting it to centers because we feel centers have a much harder job than wingers?

I can't speak for we.
But I am specifically talking about centers, because centers have a 200-foot job. Wingers not so much

 

[Heaton]

I can't speak for we.
But I am specifically talking about centers, because centers have a 200-foot job. Wingers not so much

I have a feeling over the next few years we'll see Datsyuk shift more to the Wing for that very reason. The Wings will have to find ways to bring in another center since this is it for him.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I have a feeling over the next few years we'll see Datsyuk shift more to the Wing for that very reason. The Wings will have to find ways to bring in another center since this is it for him.

I wouldn't be surprised.
I still think his offense will drop. But not as much as if he was at center -- as many centers view defense as priority one.

All I am saying is that by year 2 of Datsyuk's contract, there is chance people are going to be people grumbling about paying big money for Datsyuk.

I'm satisfied with the deal Holland got and, as a fan, I'm thrilled to know I'll be watching Pavel in Detroit for 4 more years.

But there's room to pick at this deal.

Holland and Babcock better accelerate their youth program. Because by year 3 of Datsyuk's contract, we're going to have a lot of money tied up in 35+ year olds.

 

[Gyldenlove]

Martin St Louis is well over 1 point per game in the last 3 seasons and he was 35, 36 and 37 respectively.

Jagr scored 71 in his 35th year and returned with 54 in his 39th and was basically 1 point per game in the KHL between those two years.

Elias has been 62, 78, 36 over the last 3 and he has been 34, 35 and 36.

Lidstrom had his best 3 year run point wise between 35 and 37.

Daniel Alfredson scored 1 point per game from 35 to 37.

With modern physical training and emphasis on conditioning playing into the mid 30s is not nearly as demanding as it used to be. Datsyuk has the added bonus of not having logged as many miles as a guy like Yzerman, when Yzerman was 35 he had been in the NHL For 17 years, Datsyuk has been for 11 years and one of those was a half season.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Martin St Louis is well over 1 point per game in the last 3 seasons and he was 35, 36 and 37 respectively.

Jagr scored 71 in his 35th year and returned with 54 in his 39th and was basically 1 point per game in the KHL between those two years.

Elias has been 62, 78, 36 over the last 3 and he has been 34, 35 and 36.

Lidstrom had his best 3 year run point wise between 35 and 37.

Daniel Alfredson scored 1 point per game from 35 to 37.

With modern physical training and emphasis on conditioning playing into the mid 30s is not nearly as demanding as it used to be. Datsyuk has the added bonus of not having logged as many miles as a guy like Yzerman, when Yzerman was 35 he had been in the NHL For 17 years, Datsyuk has been for 11 years and one of those was a half season.

Those guys 1) aren't centers b) are the exceptions

 

[Fugu]

Datsyuk is my favorite player. I'm glad he's back
But:

Here are some other great centers protection at 36, 37, and 38

Yzerman - 48, 8, 51
Fedorov - 42, 41, 33
Larionov - 40, 48, 28
Gretzky - 90, 62, --
Lemieux - 91, 9, 22
Sakic -- 87, 100, 40
Weight -- 25, 38, 17
Oates -- 54, 71, 82
Sundin -- 78, 28, --
Messier -- 58, 33, 30
Trottier -- 15, --, --
Dionne -- 65, 23, --
Hawerchuk -----------
Perreault -------------

So Oates and Sakic... otherwise, players are a shadow of what they were in their prime.

Very true, but Datsyuk still comes up as an elite level player with the statisticians:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1447727


From that thread, this post that looks at CORSI:

Among all players in NHL who have played over 2000 minutes in the past 5 NHL seasons, Datsyuk has the highest Corsi For % in the NHL at 58.2%.

Datsyuk's relative Corsi since 2007

2007-2008: 16.3

2008-2009: 11

2009-2010: 9.9

2010-2011: 9.1

2011-2012: 13.2

2012-2013 : 11.6

He has done this even while playing tough minutes (Rel Corsi QoC of over .5 every year and over 1 three of the 6 years).

This is evidence that Datsyuk is one of the best puck possession players in the NHL in recent years. He drives possession forward at an amazing rate, even while playing top players on the opposing team. He has probably been the best (and if not, one of the best) player in the NHL as a whole for the past 6 seasons

 

[RedWingsNow*]

No surprise to me Fugu.

I've watched hockey a long time. I've seen lots of great players. Gretzky. Lemieux. Fedorov. Forsberg. Yzerman.

I rank Datsyuk right up there with them. Because of the era we play in, and because Datsyuk has spent many years with relatively low-caliber linemates, the most superficial stats say Datsyuk doesn't belong with those guys.

But I think he does. Datsyuk has been the game's best player since the cap era began.

But he is 34. And I think he'll never recover the speed burst he had before last season's surgery.

I don't think he's going to be as able to drive the play the way he has.We're going to see a drop -- almost surely.

 

[Fugu]

No surprise to me Fugu.

I've watched hockey a long time. I've seen lots of great players. Gretzky. Lemieux. Fedorov. Forsberg. Yzerman.

I rank Datsyuk right up there with them. Because of the era we play in, and because Datsyuk has spent many years with relatively low-caliber linemates, the most superficial stats say Datsyuk doesn't belong with those guys.

But I think he does. Datsyuk has been the game's best player since the cap era began.

But he is 34. And I think he'll never recover the speed burst he had before last season's surgery.

I don't think he's going to be as able to drive the play the way he has.We're going to see a drop -- almost surely.

Yes, me too. Your eyes -- if you're paying attention -- tell you all you need to know.

I agree that he will continue to decline, but like the question I posited to The More You Know... what do you do? You have the best player in the game, yes, about to decline, so you cut him or try to lowball him? For the intangibles alone (which can be several things), you wouldn't do that, and IF you really were in a tough spot cap-wise, you trim the less performing contracts, the ones that have put you in a corner for years beyond Datsyuk's deal expires-- by double.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Very true, but Datsyuk still comes up as an elite level player with the statisticians:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1447727

I wouldn't put too much weight on that.

Bc it basically says that Kent Huskins is more important than Henrik Lundqvist, Mikko Koivu, Jason Spezza, Nathan Horton, Bobby Ryan etc.

 

[Fugu]

I wouldn't put too much weight on that.

Bc it basically says that Kent Huskins is more important than Henrik Lundqvist, Mikko Koivu, Jason Spezza, Nathan Horton, Bobby Ryan etc.

No, not really. You should read the numbers geeks' comments over on the Analytics board.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Yes, me too. Your eyes -- if you're paying attention -- tell you all you need to know.

I agree that he will continue to decline, but like the question I posited to The More You Know... what do you do? You have the best player in the game, yes, about to decline, so you cut him or try to lowball him? For the intangibles alone (which can be several things), you wouldn't do that, and IF you really were in a tough spot cap-wise, you trim the less performing contracts, the ones that have put you in a corner for years beyond Datsyuk's deal expires-- by double.

That depends on your situation.

For me, I believe that Tatar is going to turn into a 30 goal 55 point player and Nyquist a 20 goal 60 point player. I think Jurco is going to be a top 6 winger. I'm not certain of Jarnkrok -- but others are. I've yet to see him look him good in a game. But I've only seen 3-4 games. So I'll defer.

Outside of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, that should be a relatively inexpensive group -- but maybe not for long.

So I think we can afford to overpay Datsyuk for a year or two -- if he indeed slips.

But-- if Holland is going to block the kids' way by overpaying 3rd liners like Sammy and bench players like Tootoo -- then this Datsyuk contract becomes more of an issue

 

[Fugu]

That depends on your situation.

For me, I believe that Tatar is going to turn into a 30 goal 55 point player and Nyquist a 20 goal 60 point player. I think Jurco is going to be a top 6 winger. I'm not certain of Jarnkrok -- but others are. I've yet to see him look him good in a game. But I've only seen 3-4 games. So I'll defer.

Outside of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, that should be a relatively inexpensive group -- but maybe not for long.

So I think we can afford to overpay Datsyuk for a year or two -- if he indeed slips.

But-- if Holland is going to block the kids' way by overpaying 3rd liners like Sammy and bench players like Tootoo -- then this Datsyuk contract becomes more of an issue

I understand what you're saying, but really the onus is on Holland to valuate things properly, and you don't start with your best player, declining potentially or not. He's been too generous with the middle class. Push comes to shove, I'd still take Datsyuk over the next four years at his price over Franzen at his cap hit for 7 more years.

 

[SportsballChic]

Push comes to shove, I'd still take Datsyuk over the next four years at his price over Franzen at his cap hit for 7 more years.

Truer words never spoken. I dunno, I see what the naysayers are saying but it seems to operate under the assumption the grown from within will be minimal. Holland keeps saying it's going to be a lot better than that and honestly the signs seem to point to him being right.

I'm very excited about some of our young players and I don't see why we can't contend for a Cup as a 4th-8th seed for 2 years while the transition happens. If all of these guys in the system bomb out? Then I'll turn on Kenny, but for now I think his past history and the history of the organization as a whole implies I should give them some credit here. It's not like the guys we've seen so far have sucked, I think Gustav is a ridiculously talented player.

So much angst for a team that did so well playing with house money in a rebuilding year. Dunno.

 

[odin1981]

It has a lot to do with that our fan base is spoiled. We have had 20 years of the past 22 where we considered a "contender". Now these past two we aren't. Not to say we are a bad team by any stretch. But we got used to over 20 years of having at least a trio of elite/generational players on our team.

Now we only have two. And we got really spoiled by having a top 5 d of all time on our roster. Unless we hit the jackpot with one of our current prospects that turns into elite/gen talents we will still be in the "hunt" for lord stanley but we won't be a front running team.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

It has a lot to do with that our fan base is spoiled. We have had 20 years of the past 22 where we considered a "contender". Now these past two we aren't. Not to say we are a bad team by any stretch. But we got used to over 20 years of having at least a trio of elite/generational players on our team.

Now we only have two. And we got really spoiled by having a top 5 d of all time on our roster. Unless we hit the jackpot with one of our current prospects that turns into elite/gen talents we will still be in the "hunt" for lord stanley but we won't be a front running team.

You may be spoiled, Odin. But I'm not.
I consider spoiled to be derogatory.

I think fans want to win. If not immediately, they want to see a path to victory.

I don't care if you're the Chicago Cubs or Detroit Red Wings.

 

[SportsballChic]

It has a lot to do with that our fan base is spoiled. We have had 20 years of the past 22 where we considered a "contender". Now these past two we aren't. Not to say we are a bad team by any stretch. But we got used to over 20 years of having at least a trio of elite/generational players on our team.

Now we only have two. And we got really spoiled by having a top 5 d of all time on our roster. Unless we hit the jackpot with one of our current prospects that turns into elite/gen talents we will still be in the "hunt" for lord stanley but we won't be a front running team.

Sproul. I believe.

re: The History; I started watching the Wings pretty much right after they drafted Steve Yzerman. I'm 36 now, so I was mostly a stupid kid then. My favorite player believe it or not was Brad Park. As a kid I thought Greg Stefan and Glen Hanlon were "just unlucky" and I never understood why Yzerman got so much attention. Eventually, I sat through 7 game upsets to the Leafs and "Team Arturs Irbe" and the Cup final where NJ made us look like we weren't even there.

I love the Wings, but it could be "so much worse" right now. I also think people aren't being fair; if we'd have beat Chicago I have no doubt we'd have taken LA to the cleaners. If your "down years" have you as the 9th or 10th best team in the NHL; those are some pretty good down years.

Not picking a fight, I get it; "just win baby" but really reading some of these posts you'd think the Wings were Florida. It's not that bad imho.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

We were one win from beating Chicago.
We were one loss from losing in round 1.
We were a few wins away from not making the playoffs.

 

[SportsballChic]

We were one win from beating Chicago.
We were one loss from losing in round 1.
We were a few wins away from not making the playoffs.

Welcome to "league parity" and replacing 2 top 4 defensemen (one of them the franchises' best player) in the same offseason.

Again, not trying to pick a fight but you do realize that if that's an 82 game season we're 5th seed right?

This gloom and doom made a LOT more sense last offseason; glad I wasn't here for that. You guys must've been on suicide watch.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Doom & Gloom?

Are you trying to ingratiate yourself with the "anti-naysayer" crowd?

If you're going to say Detroit, losing in round two, was one game away from making the conference finals -- where they would have magically broomed away the cup champs somehow ---

How in the hell is it "doom and gloom" to just cite the plain truth --- that the other side of that equation involves the Red Wings not beating the Ducks or even making the playoffs.

I mean, assuming you're trying to make an honest, somewhat fair assessment ...

As for "league parity" I'd say that the concept is totally overblown.

And all the stuff about how great we are after losing Lidstrom and Stuart --
All us "naysaying doom and gloomers" have been telling you that Lidstrom was overrated around here for quite awhile now.

 

[SportsballChic]

Doom & Gloom?

Are you trying to ingratiate yourself with the "anti-naysayer" crowd?

If you're going to say Detroit, losing in round two, was one game away from making the conference finals -- where they would have magically broomed away the cup champs somehow ---

How in the hell is it "doom and gloom" to just cite the plain truth --- that the other side of that equation involves the Red Wings not beating the Ducks or even making the playoffs.

I mean, assuming you're trying to make an honest, somewhat fair assessment ...

Okay #1) I'm new here as you can see by the postcount and the helpful Rookie User badge. I'm trying to make friends; that's what you do when you're new.

#2) I meant the thread as a whole not just your post, people are extremely negative. I get it. I was there last year. It doesn't make much sense to me right now tho and I've said why.

If we're in the realm of "woulda, coulda, shoulda" then if the regular season "woulda" been 82 games; absolutely NONE of this conversation is relevant then. Have some faith. Or don't but don't yell at me for saying "ya'll are a bunch of downers and I disagree with your opinion."

Thanks.

Edit - Also: ya'll are some ungrateful SoBs. Guys like Pav and Lidstrom can play for my team until they WANT to retire; I don't much care who thinks they're "overrated". Also, yes; 7.5 million scares me but NOT as much as ppl who want to blow up the team because "we aren't getting there in 2013-14".