Player Discussion Darnell Nurse - To bridge or not to bridge, that is the question.

[Spawn]

This isn't true.

13th & 14th forward can be a low dollar ELC guy. Move out Kassian sign Nurse long term. Not recommended but possible.

Move Lucic...

Move Klefbom. If Sekera is "unmovable" and everyone agrees Nurse will be better why even wait? Klefbom is obviously going to have to be moved.

Move RNH. Terrible move I hope doesn't happen.

It's summer. Bridge is 99% likely but we got to chat about something.

Guess you ignored the part about "as it stands today." But you sure do love circling back to trading away Klefbom.

Not sure what is more frequent around here. You having us trade away Klefbom or raab having us trade away Nurse.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Here's a new one... trade Nurse + Klefbom for Karlsson.

Karlsson
Larsson
Sekera
Russell
Bouchard
Benning
Gravel/Bear


Looks good to me.

 

[LaGu]

Nurse's most common on-ice teammates this season were Larsson, McDavid, and Draisaitl. Wonder how he managed to get some even strength points... truly a mystery.

Literally nobody on the team played more minutes with McDavid this year than Nurse, and he managed to put up.... 26 whole points. First ballot hall of fame.

Like, seriously, which games were you people watching? Cause I was watching the ones where he routinely made life miserable for McDavid in the offensive zone, and I just want to make sure that I'm not living in the ****ing Twilight Zone here.

Oook.

I am not sure what this means. Do you think the other D's in the top of EV scoring played with bums? Well, tbh maybe some did. But to discard his EV scoring is a mistake imho. 20+ EV pts per year is always a very good sign.

I am not even a great fan of Nurse, but his numbers look pretty good tbh and I get why they are holding out. That said $3.5M bridge is the limit. I would shed much cap for Nurse. If we go for a cap-dump I'd use the space for a PP RD or something else, not for abig Nurse contract

 

[Drivesaitl]

Nurse's most common on-ice teammates this season were Larsson, McDavid, and Draisaitl. Wonder how he managed to get some even strength points... truly a mystery.

Literally nobody on the team played more minutes with McDavid this year than Nurse, and he managed to put up.... 26 whole points. First ballot hall of fame.

Like, seriously, which games were you people watching? Cause I was watching the ones where he routinely made life miserable for McDavid in the offensive zone, and I just want to make sure that I'm not living in the ****ing Twilight Zone here.

What a specious post without any context. For instance that Nurse spent TWICE as many minutes AWAY from McD than with him. Fact of the matter is Nurse forward pairing were very spread out and basically everybody. You fail to mention that his next most common forwards are Lucic, Strome, or that he played as much time with Russell as a D partner as he did with say Draisaitl.

Nurse was used primarily with Larsson, yes, about 55% of his roughly 1500 EV minutes played.

Again that he managed to finish +15 on this club is miraculous given huge EV minutes and spread out use. Sure he's beneficiary of some GF with some of his unit minutes but his GA was consistently low. Whatever way you want to shake it 26EV pts for a young defenceman is good. With any effective PP at all Nurse flirts with a 35-40 pt season last year.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Russell had a solid year and isn't that old. His actual paydays after this year are 2.5 and then 1.5. Intentionally low imo to make him great trade bait for teams with cap space and cheap owners.

Sekera if he is healthy is easily worth 5.5 in today's NHL. If he is healthy tho I much prefer him to Klefbom personally.

Russell very tradable. Sekera depends on health and play. Love to see him hit 40 points this year and make Klefbom redundant.

If Talbots book is he reads the effort level of his team before he even makes a single save, let's in a back breaker softie on the first shot, and then proceeds to play terrible.... we really don't want a player with that "book".

Talbot was terrible last year. The defense as well but it's very very very easy to say Talbot was brutal independent of the defense. No one should be able to say otherwise with a straight face.

Talbot is easily arguable as the worst player on our team last year. Lucic and Klefbom also having seats at that table.

Quoting actual paydays doesn't mean one iota. Its a capped league. Its the caphit that primarily matters to most clubs. Not sure whey actual pay is so often quoted, it doesn't much matter does it? I mean theres only maybe 10% of teams looking to save money or that prioritize that.

Sekera 40pts? c'mon. hes not the same player he was in prime and not likely to be post injury.

 

[Louis Cypher]

We will never really truly know but you must Wonder if general managers have influence over coaches to not play players in certain situations to keep their point totals and there ice time down on contract years. Nurse I don't think played any power play time at all. Not sure if that is T-Mac being the stubborn coach that he is or direction from Chia to keep him off the power play so his point total isnt too high in a contract year.

 

[Drivesaitl]

^Nurse sure didn't see a lot of PP time this season. Despite him being the most productive D this season so its a bit odd but he had the most EV usage and a lot of pk usage so it seems alternately the team was deciding where to use him where they most thought they needed it. With the tirefire out pk was much of the season we needed all the help we could get there.

 

[Still DRAI]

Here's a new one... trade Nurse + Klefbom for Karlsson.

Karlsson
Larsson
Sekera
Russell
Bouchard
Benning
Gravel/Bear


Looks good to me.

Ehhh... I have my own player biases, but I see a great first pairing, an okay-to-good second pairing (assuming Sekera bounces back), and a bottom pairing that needs heavy sheltering.

The breakdown of minutes would have to be something like 25+/20+/10 in order to get appropriate matchups, and I really don't trust that second pairing to take minutes that heavy unless Sekera is back in his prime. Larsson and Karlsson could handle heavy minutes, but I don't think it's safe to expect that pairing to be playing near 30 minutes a night every game for a whole season.

 

[Bank Shot]

We will never really truly know but you must Wonder if general managers have influence over coaches to not play players in certain situations to keep their point totals and there ice time down on contract years. Nurse I don't think played any power play time at all. Not sure if that is T-Mac being the stubborn coach that he is or direction from Chia to keep him off the power play so his point total isnt too high in a contract year.

If that was a thing, then Draisatil wouldn't have played on McDavid's wing for half the season in 16/17.

 

[McFlyingV]

We will never really truly know but you must Wonder if general managers have influence over coaches to not play players in certain situations to keep their point totals and there ice time down on contract years. Nurse I don't think played any power play time at all. Not sure if that is T-Mac being the stubborn coach that he is or direction from Chia to keep him off the power play so his point total isnt too high in a contract year.

I think its far more likely that they just didn't see his skillset as overly valuable on the PP and valued him more at 5 on 5 and PK given that he was already playing 22 minutes a night. I can't say I'd disagree if that was the thought process. To me I just don't see the tools in Nurse that you want in a PP Dman. He did improve his ability to get shots through this year so that is promising, but I don't see a dynamic shot or dynamic playmaking to make him a good option there.

Maybe he could be a 2nd PP guy if needed, but to me his value comes a lot more from the D zone to the other team's blue line. That being he can skate pucks out with ease and gain controlled zone entries, he can defend the rush with his skating, he can be good in front of the net and along the boards. His reads and gap control are still inconsistent, but constantly improving. His shot, offensive zone vision, and creativity still are often very inconsistent and leave a lot to be desired.

 

[nexttothemoon]

Ehhh... I have my own player biases, but I see a great first pairing, an okay-to-good second pairing (assuming Sekera bounces back), and a bottom pairing that needs heavy sheltering.

The breakdown of minutes would have to be something like 25+/20+/10 in order to get appropriate matchups, and I really don't trust that second pairing to take minutes that heavy unless Sekera is back in his prime. Larsson and Karlsson could handle heavy minutes, but I don't think it's safe to expect that pairing to be playing near 30 minutes a night every game for a whole season.

Well the bottom pairing would likely be a bit of an adventure no doubt with players like Bouchard/Gravel/Bear having to be on there all season long.

Then again... like you say... with a great/elite 1st pairing and a good/decent 2nd pairing... there has to be a weakness somewhere and if it's going to be the bottom pairing... that's obviously the best place for the weakest links on D to be.

One of Bear/Bouchard(if he sticks in the lineup) all season long on the bottom pairing would likely make for some minuses on that pairing at evens... but so be it. Gravel might be a little better than we think as well.

Of course if several injuries hit as well (which they likely will as they always do)... the Oilers lack some experience on D but it's hard to have extra depth at all positions and the Oilers D depth is likely better than their wing depth even after injuries are taken into account.

Lowe/Stanton would also be available for injury callups who'd both be fine for #7 pressbox sitters and as fill-ins as #6 dmen for short periods.


As an aside... what's the deal with Joel Persson... a 24 year old dman from the SHL signed to a 1 year deal by the Oilers but looks like he'll be playing in the SHL next season? Could he potentially come over at some point this season as well?

 

[Still DRAI]

Well the bottom pairing would likely be a bit of an adventure no doubt with players like Bouchard/Gravel/Bear having to be on there all season long.

Then again... like you say... with a great/elite 1st pairing and a good/decent 2nd pairing... there has to be a weakness somewhere and if it's going to be the bottom pairing... that's obviously the best place for the weakest links on D to be.

One of Bear/Bouchard(if he sticks the lineup) all season long on the bottom pairing would likely make for some minuses on that pairing at evens... but so be it. Gravel might be a little better than we think as well.

Of course if several injuries hit as well (which they likely will as they always do)... the Oilers lack some experience on D but it's hard to have extra depth at all positions and the Oilers D depth is likely better than their wing depth even after injuries are taken into account.

Lowe/Stanton would also be available for injury callups who'd both be fine for #7 pressbox sitters and as fill-ins as #6 dmen for short periods.


As an aside... what's the deal with Joel Persson... a 24 year old dman from the SHL signed to a 1 year deal by the Oilers but looks like he'll be playing in the SHL next season? Could he potentially come over at some point this season as well?

Yeah, I totally get the appeal of adding Karlsson (it's really hard not to like it, there's worse problems than having McDavid and Karlsson running around for 25+ minutes), but I just get leery about super top-heavy d-corps.

Personally, when I look at teams that have stacked top pairings and then a bunch of "ehhh he's alright enough", I don't see many that are legitimate threats. Pittsburgh is the most notable exception, but any team with Crosby and Malkin is going to cover up for defensive lapses. LA and Chicago are both slowly tumbling from relevance in part because their defensive depth is now described as "one star, and a bunch of mediocrity".

I know there's some recency bias, but I'd personally rather construct a team around a bunch of above-average to pretty good defensemen like Vegas, rather than one super-elite pairing and a bunch of guys who might break even if they're lucky.

RE: Your aside, I believe that the Oilers now own Persson's rights after this season as an RFA, so while he's contracted in the SHL we can negotiate North American time next year, but I struggle with contract statuses!

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Here's a question, what would you add to Pouliot's buyout cap to move it to free up $1.33 million?

The Pouliot and Gryba buyouts reek of Katz trying to save a buck. That's $1.633 million in dead cap.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

RFA's next season: Puljujarvi, Rattie, Rieder, Aberg, Khaira
UFA's next season: Talbot, Koskinen, Gravel

We are basically ****ed unless we move out Lucic's or Sekera's contracts or any combination of Sekera, Lucic and Russell.

Maybe it would be better to lock Nurse down long term right now if we can. The question is, who do we deal if we can't move one of those contracts out? Kassian? Do we look to move Klefbom and Lucic for Krug + ?

 

[Spawn]

Here's a question, what would you add to Pouliot's buyout cap to move it to free up $1.33 million?

The Pouliot and Gryba buyouts reek of Katz trying to save a buck. That's $1.633 million in dead cap.

Not allowed to do that.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Not allowed to do that.

Why not? It was my understanding that you can trade cap like an asset.

 

[Spawn]

Why not? It was my understanding that you can trade cap like an asset.

That's never been allowed. Not since the cap came in. You can retain a part of a players salary when you trade them away. But Pouliot doesn't have a contract here anymore. There's no player to trade in this case.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

That's never been allowed. Not since the cap came in. You can retain a part of a players salary when you trade them away. But Pouliot doesn't have a contract here anymore. There's no player to trade in this case.

How much different is it than trading retired players cap hits? I may very well be wrong but I'd like to hear from a cap guy like @Fourier on this one before throwing in the towel

 

[Spawn]

How much different is it than trading retired players cap hits? I may very well be wrong but I'd like to hear from a cap guy like @Fourier on this one before throwing in the towel

"Trade" means the transfer, other than as a result of a claim by Waivers, from one
Club's Reserve List or Free Agent List to another Club's Reserve List or Free Agent List of a
Player's SPC, the rights to a Player (including his SPC, if applicable) on such Club's Reserve List
or Free Agent List, and/or the rights to a draft choice in the Entry Draft.

Pouliot's buyout doesn't fall under any of those categories as "Trade" is defined in the CBA. But hey... if Fourier can come in and say something different, I'm all ears. If it was allowed you'd think it would have happened before.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Pouliot's buyout doesn't fall under any of those categories.

Seems cut and dry, what does SPC mean?

 

[Spawn]

Seems cut and dry, what does SPC mean?

standard player contract

 

[Bryanbryoil]

standard player contract

Well unless I'm missing something it looks like you are right.

 

[Spawn]

Well unless I'm missing something it looks like you are right.

It's possible I'm missing something. I imagine Fourier will come in at some point and set the matter straight.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It's possible I'm missing something. I imagine Fourier will come in at some point and set the matter straight.

That makes the buyouts all the more puzzling. $1.633 million in dead cap, that's enough to extend Nurse at $5 million and add a cheap 14th forward.

Even if we ignore the Pouliot buyout, the $300K buyout of Gryba was beyond horrendous.

 

[Spawn]

That makes the buyouts all the more puzzling. $1.633 million in dead cap, that's enough to extend Nurse at $5 million and add a cheap 14th forward.

Even if we ignore the Pouliot buyout, the $300K buyout of Gryba was beyond horrendous.

The Pouliot buyout was likely an inevitability. It didn't need to happen last summer, but it would have needed to happen this summer. The real problem with buying Pouliot last summer opposed to this summer is that we're now going to have that buy-out for an extra season. If we bought him out this summer we'd have had 1.3M in dead space this season and next. But because we bought him out last season it extends an extra season. And we didn't use the savings last season so it was a complete waste.

The Gryba buy-out is completely inexplicable. He could have just been buried in the minors this season and have cost the team nothing in terms of cap hit. Now for some crazy reason we're stuck with 300K in penalties this season and next. All to save 300K in cash? That doesn't make any sense.