Player Discussion Danton Heinen III

[ODAAT]

The skills are there. You don’t score 50+pts playing 5 on 5 hockey with Riley Nash if you’re not good.

He’s just in a team wide sophomore ultra slump.

He has the skills to complete very well Bergy-Marchand and allowing Pasta to go with Krejci and give a great 1-2 punch lines for the first time this year.

sums it up well friend, never have I seen a team where all sophomores struggled like this

 

[KrejciMVP]

sums it up well friend, never have I seen a team where all sophomores struggled like this

If they had a top 6 winger to start the year off with the younger players wouldn t have felt so much pressure to produce maybe and there would not have been so much line shuffling

 

[Don Cherry]

sums it up well friend, never have I seen a team where all sophomores struggled like this

I thought Debrusk was going to score 30 this year. It's unfortunate that all of our prospects took huge steps back.

. I really liked what I saw of Lauzon in his all-too-brief stint here. I think we should move Krug for a RW and slide Grizz into Krugs role and bring Lauzon up.

 

[BostonBruins11]

there's hope! lol Heinen is starting to look good on that 1st line!

Debrusk needs to sit a couple games, i think he "needs" the rest, i think he's playing hurt.

 

[whitetape]

Krug too important on O to be traded. Grizz not at that level, as good as he is.

 

[Blowfish]

So are we keeping danton now? So confused with this kid.

He's looking great on the first line...however any of Cehlarik Heinen or Donato in a trade requirement for a Stone or Panarin you make that trade however the success of Cehlarik and Heinen does give Don some more options in terms of a Panarin versus a Dzingel and the assets that are moved.

 

[burstnbloom]

Heinen has looked great with the big boys but looking at his underlying and context stats are really interesting. He has played as a part of 83 different line combinations this year in 51 games. Many of those combos are for a few minutes so you can't learn much, but it is illustrative of how jerked around he's been.

He's played on only two lines for more than 50 minutes (-46-74, -23-17) and, combined, those lines are 8gf and 5ga. They also are both 55 corsi lines. With 37 and 63, they are 4gf and 0ga in 34 minutes.

So, he's definitely been inconsistent but imagine never being anchored to any kind of consistent role (83 line combos!) and imagine what that would do to your confidence. Despite his struggles and inconsistent play, he's still been a positive possession player.

Cutting bait on him will lead to some serious lamentation down the road.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

Well, that was an unfortunate time off from this place…. Glad to be back! While I was away from being able to post, I still read and still laughed at some brutal takes from fans here over and over and over. Same usual crew as well…Funny how that works. Figured I’d jump right in on Heinen, since he’s the flavor of the year for hate. I just think its funny how he gets hammered by posters, traded in seemingly every proposal, and yet DeBrusk walks pretty much unscathed. I really like both players. They each bring a different skill set. DeBrusk may have the advantage for total points this year, but that’s only because he gets more opportunities on the PP. For a team lacking secondary scoring, Heinen is providing more of it. Where’s the whining about DeBrusk though? Why does he get a pass? Mind boggling…..

DANTON HEINEN: 601 Total Minutes / 51 Games Played

Average 5v5 TOI = 12:20
Goals = 7
Assists = 6
Points = 13
Primary Points = 10
P/60 = 1.3
P1/60 = 1
CF% = 53

JAKE DEBRUSK: 576 Total Minutes / 46 Games Played

Average 5v5 TOI = 12:52
Goals = 7
Assists = 2
Points = 9
Primary Points = 8
P/60 = 0.94
P1/60 = 0.83
CF% = 54

 

[sarge88]

Well, that was an unfortunate time off from this place…. Glad to be back! While I was away from being able to post, I still read and still laughed at some brutal takes from fans here over and over and over. Same usual crew as well…Funny how that works. Figured I’d jump right in on Heinen, since he’s the flavor of the year for hate. I just think its funny how he gets hammered by posters, traded in seemingly every proposal, and yet DeBrusk walks pretty much unscathed. I really like both players. They each bring a different skill set. DeBrusk may have the advantage for total points this year, but that’s only because he gets more opportunities on the PP. For a team lacking secondary scoring, Heinen is providing more of it. Where’s the whining about DeBrusk though? Why does he get a pass? Mind boggling…..

DANTON HEINEN: 601 Total Minutes / 51 Games Played

Average 5v5 TOI = 12:20
Goals = 7
Assists = 6
Points = 13
Primary Points = 10
P/60 = 1.3
P1/60 = 1
CF% = 53

JAKE DEBRUSK: 576 Total Minutes / 46 Games Played

Average 5v5 TOI = 12:52
Goals = 7
Assists = 2
Points = 9
Primary Points = 8
P/60 = 0.94
P1/60 = 0.83
CF% = 54

For me it’s simply because DeBrusk plays hard, whether he’s producing or not....plus part of his issues can be attributed to injury.

Concussions are very tricky and the effects can linger and aren’t as easily seen.

If a guy has a sprained knee it’s much easier to tell if he’s back to his baseline in terms of speed, agility, etc.

With a concussion you can be ok one day and not the next.

 

[neelynugs]

i'm not even sure why it needs to be heinen or debrusk. let's have both. i don't see sweeney dealing
heinen unless it's part of a "hockey trade".

 

[JoeIsAStud]

For me it’s simply because DeBrusk plays hard, whether he’s producing or not....plus part of his issues can be attributed to injury.

There is the rub I guess. Whether it is his skating style or something about him. For some there is a perception that Heinen doesn't work hard. Despite the metrics which show him as a strong possession player. Despite the fact the staff seems to recognize his 200 foot game

And DeBrusk dad was an enforcer. Of course he works hard.

 

[sarge88]

There is the rub I guess. Whether it is his skating style or something about him. For some there is a perception that Heinen doesn't work hard. Despite the metrics which show him as a strong possession player. Despite the fact the staff seems to recognize his 200 foot game

And DeBrusk dad was an enforcer. Of course he works hard.

I’ll start with the fact that I’m not a big believer in the new stats. I don’t ever use them in a discussion for or against anyone because, from what I’ve read, I think there are too many variables that don’t get accounted for. I understand that points aren’t the only way to measure a players worth, but to me that’s role dependent as well.

I don’t expect Wagner or Kuraly to be anywhere near Heinen in regard to points, nor do I expect Heinen to be with Pasta, Marchand or Bergeron.

Lastly, I don’t necessarily think his lack of effort/intensity is a perception issue because Heinen was benched for a couple of games and his ice time has waxed and waned during periods where his production was consistently low.

That tells me that the staff sees something in his effort, otherwise, he’d have had consistent minutes despite a lack of production and wouldn’t get sat down for a few games.

Either way...if he can play like he did yesterday.....not just the points but the effort, it’s a plus and hopefully continues.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

For me it’s simply because DeBrusk plays hard, whether he’s producing or not....plus part of his issues can be attributed to injury.

Concussions are very tricky and the effects can linger and aren’t as easily seen.

If a guy has a sprained knee it’s much easier to tell if he’s back to his baseline in terms of speed, agility, etc.

With a concussion you can be ok one day and not the next.

And here lies the issue.... You're implying that Heinen "doesn't play hard".

 

[sarge88]

And here lies the issue.... You're implying that Heinen "doesn't play hard".

I’m not implying it....I’m flat out saying that based on my observations of him he does not play hard consistently enough.

Now if you want to tell me that how he played yesterday and vs. NYR is no different, effort and intensity wise than how he played for the vast majority of the season, I don’t think we’ll ever come to an agreement.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

I’m not implying it....I’m flat out saying that based on my observations of him he does not play hard consistently enough.

Now if you want to tell me that how he played yesterday and vs. NYR is no different, effort and intensity wise than how he played for the vast majority of the season, I don’t think we’ll ever come to an agreement.

I just will never agree with people who call out the effort factor of a player when they do it from their couch. All season long Heinen has played sound defense. The difference with now and then is that he's also producing points, which causes people to think he's "playing harder".

 

[Dellstrom]

I thought Debrusk was going to score 30 this year. It's unfortunate that all of our prospects took huge steps back.

. I really liked what I saw of Lauzon in his all-too-brief stint here. I think we should move Krug for a RW and slide Grizz into Krugs role and bring Lauzon up.

They all had really good years last year, a sophomore slump is pretty normal. The most important hockey this season has yet to be played.

 

[sarge88]

I just will never agree with people who call out the effort factor of a player when they do it from their couch. All season long Heinen has played sound defense. The difference with now and then is that he's also producing points, which causes people to think he's "playing harder".

I disagree entirely.

He’s spent the vast majority of the season underproducing, yet in some games he still played 14-16 minutes, but in others he played 6-8 and in others he was scratched,

What’s the criteria the coaches used for giving him ice time, limiting ice time and sitting him out?

It wasn’t production, because until this week, it hasn’t been there regardless of minutes played.

To me that leaves effort, which I stand by my opinion that what we’ve seen this week is far different than in the vast majority of games this season.

 

[burstnbloom]

I’ll start with the fact that I’m not a big believer in the new stats. I don’t ever use them in a discussion for or against anyone because, from what I’ve read, I think there are too many variables that don’t get accounted for. I understand that points aren’t the only way to measure a players worth, but to me that’s role dependent as well.

I don’t expect Wagner or Kuraly to be anywhere near Heinen in regard to points, nor do I expect Heinen to be with Pasta, Marchand or Bergeron.

Lastly, I don’t necessarily think his lack of effort/intensity is a perception issue because Heinen was benched for a couple of games and his ice time has waxed and waned during periods where his production was consistently low.

That tells me that the staff sees something in his effort, otherwise, he’d have had consistent minutes despite a lack of production and wouldn’t get sat down for a few games.

Either way...if he can play like he did yesterday.....not just the points but the effort, it’s a plus and hopefully continues.

New stats are just giving context to old stats. Possession numbers and relative possession stats just talk about how many times a thing happened when someone on the ice. They certainly tell a more complete story about what might happen next than just points scored does.

To say advanced stats don't cover all the variables so you just trust your eyes is some level 20 cognitive dissonance. Heinen /Debrusk is the new Nixon/jd drew.

 

[sarge88]

New stats are just giving context to old stats. Possession numbers and relative possession stats just talk about how many times a thing happened when someone on the ice. They certainly tell a more complete story about what might happen next than just points scored does.

To say advanced stats don't cover all the variables so you just trust your eyes is some level 20 cognitive dissonance. Heinen /Debrusk is the new Nixon/jd drew.

Maybe...but effort and intensity aren’t something that can be statistically proven.

I’ll stand by my opinion that Heinen has played harder this week than he has all season.

If there are stats that somehow prove that, I don’t care,

If there aren’t, I don’t care.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Maybe...but effort and intensity aren’t something that can be statistically proven.

I’ll stand by my opinion that Heinen has played harder this week than he has all season.

If there are stats that somehow prove that, I don’t care,

If there aren’t, I don’t care.

So basically, whatever stat, reasoning, or logic someone throws at you...

You don’t care and have made up your mind?

Good to know.

I am 100% with you that Heinen needs to be producing better than he has for the majority of the season.

I am 100% opposed to you on the idea that a general lack of effort is the reason he hasn’t been producing.

If you hadn’t already made up your mind, we could discuss some of them

 

[ODAAT]

So basically, whatever stat, reasoning, or logic someone throws at you...

You don’t care and have made up your mind?

Good to know.

I am 100% with you that Heinen needs to be producing better than he has for the majority.

I am 100% opposed to you on the idea that a general lack of effort is the reason he hasn’t been producing.

If you hadn’t already made up your mind, we could discuss some of them

the other argument or observation that makes me shake my head when some mention it in this very thread is that Heinen plays with no emotion and that`s a problem for him......ugg

This is simple, he`s a talented player who struggled a ton this year. You just can`t post almost 50 pts in a rookie year, with Riley freaking Nash as his pivot unless you have some skill. Kid has worked hard all season this year, has moments like most young players, where the focus wasn`t where it needed to be but for the most part, rarely hurts his team defensively (as pointed out by Butch) but was struggling a ton with offensive confidence. Nobody can predict how a player regains that confidence or when it returns, maybe it`s as simple as a terrific pass for an assist or a garbage goal, whatever it is, for the last few games, it appears Heinen is feeling better about his game in the offensive end and that`s a huge bonus.

Now I`d like to see Jake round back into the form we have seen him capable of

 

[sarge88]

So basically, whatever stat, reasoning, or logic someone throws at you...

You don’t care and have made up your mind?

Good to know.

I am 100% with you that Heinen needs to be producing better than he has for the majority.

I am 100% opposed to you on the idea that a general lack of effort is the reason he hasn’t been producing.

If you hadn’t already made up your mind, we could discuss some of them

No...I’ve made up my mind regarding his effort and intensity level, and there is no statistic that really addresses that.

I’ve been consistent about that since about Thanksgiving and it’s been the crux of my issue with him.

If you want to say that your opinion is that he’s worked hard and given great effort throughout this season, there’s nothing other than my opinion that I can offer to counter that. (Aside from a benching or 2 and a few games in single digits for minutes played).

All I can comment on is what I see. And what I’ve seen is a much different player over the past week than in the vast majority of the season prior to this stretch.

As for him overall......I feel his ceiling is a third liner on a legit contender..nothing special, nothing difficult to replace, but also not someone who will hurt you. I know you value him more, which is fine, but in all honesty, when we’re looking at guys who are of his ilk.....the middle tier guys...middle 6-8 forwards on a team, I’d much rather a guy who plays tougher and hits more than he does.

Of the guys that are perpetually talked about as trade bait (him, JFK, Donato, Lauzon, etc.) would he be the guy I’d like to see moved?

Absolutely.....but that doesn’t mean I want him to fail here because if he does fail, it increases the chance that someone I like better gets moved because of it.

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

What really killed Heinen's production this season is that 11 game stretch of zero points earlier in the season. In his last 10 games played, he's produced at a 0.50 PPG clip (5P/10GP) and in his last 20 games played, slightly lower at 0.40 PPG (8P/20GP).

I hope Heinen is turning a corner in terms of production here. Playing with Bergeron/Marchand will give him plenty of opportunity to. He is a good player. He still has top 6 potential in my opinion.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

No...I’ve made up my mind regarding his effort and intensity level, and there is no statistic that really addresses that.

I’ve been consistent about that since about Thanksgiving and it’s been the crux of my issue with him.

If you want to say that your opinion is that he’s worked hard and given great effort throughout this season, there’s nothing other than my opinion that I can offer to counter that.

All I have in defense of my opinion is what I see. And what I’ve seen is a much different player over the past week than in the vast majority of the season prior to this stretch.

As for him overall......I feel his ceiling is a third liner on a legit contender..nothing special, nothing difficult to replace, but also not someone who will hurt you. I know you value him more, which is fine, but in all honesty, when we’re looking at guys who are of his ilk.....the middle tier guys...middle 6-8 forwards on a team, I’d much rather a guy who plays tougher and hits more than he does.

Of the guys that are perpetually talked about as trade bait (him, JFK, Donato, Lauzon, etc.) would he be the guy I’d like to see moved, yes...but that doesn’t mean I want him to fail here because if he does fail, it increases the chance that someone I like better gets moved because of it.

You are correct about there being no stat (that I know of anyway) that measures effort. If you feel that Heinen consistently doesn’t give an effort, there will be no stat that will dissuade you (which is convenient lol).

I prefer to use common sense myself. I know a few guys that were pro athletes or played at a very high level and one of the traits they all shared was how competitive they were. Heinen was not drafted in his first year, and he was not highly recruited for college. Yet here he is at the highest level of hockey. Common sense tells me that an under-recruited kid who played D1 and is now in the NHL doesn’t have an effort or compete problem, regardless of how you think he “looks”.

I see him going to the same areas he did last year, playing the same cerebral, not overly emotional game I saw him play last year. There are going to be games where players are “off”, but by and large, the only difference is the point production.

There are a number of reasons why this is imo. Primarily, I think it’s that he’s playing with less talented linemates (or guys that don’t fit his style). Effort is way down the list for me.

His shots per game last year was 1.75, shot attempts 3 per game. This year it’s 1.55 shots and 2.95 attempts. Last year 58% of his shot attempts got through, this year 53%. Not any huge discrepancies, but his shooting% is down almost 2%. I would chalk the slight downturn in attempts and shots up to lack of confidence.

 

[Chief Nine]

You are correct about there being no stat (that I know of anyway) that measures effort. If you feel that Heinen consistently doesn’t give an effort, there will be no stat that will dissuade you (which is convenient lol).

I prefer to use common sense myself. I know a few guys that were pro athletes or played at a very high level and one of the traits they all shared was how competitive they were. Heinen was not drafted in his first year, and he was not highly recruited for college. Yet here he is at the highest level of hockey. Common sense tells me that an under-recruited kid who played D1 and is now in the NHL doesn’t have an effort or compete problem, regardless of how you think he “looks”.

I see him going to the same areas he did last year, playing the same cerebral, not overly emotional game I saw him play last year. There are going to be games where players are “off”, but by and large, the only difference is the point production.

There are a number of reasons why this is imo. Primarily, I think it’s that he’s playing with less talented linemates (or guys that don’t fit his style). Effort is way down the list for me.

His shots per game last year was 1.75, shot attempts 3 per game. This year it’s 1.55 shots and 2.95 attempts. Last year 58% of his shot attempts got through, this year 53%. Not any huge discrepancies, but his shooting% is down almost 2%. I would chalk the slight downturn in attempts and shots up to lack of confidence.

Oddly enough, what I’d like him to see him try is a different stick or setup on his stick or change his shot angle. I’m no expert, but it seems to me a lot of his shots are going high. That’s either too much lift, trying to be too fine, or poor shot selection. Could be a combination of all three, but he’s getting chances, he just needs to bury a few of those and he’s gonna be fine