Daniel Sprong Containment Thread Part 3 | Mod Warning Post #1

[Gurglesons]

In other words many years from now Guentzel will be coaching the Ducks & Getzlaf will be coaching the Penguins & Both coaches will win a cup as a coach.

I can have dreams still right?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sweet dude. I was wrong. You were right. Sprong is elite and deserved a look with Sid consistently and having the second powerplay based around him.

I can’t do this anymore.

Everybody here wants the Pens to make the most of their assets and be the best team possible. A simple acknowledgement that they should do their due diligence and give promising young players legitimate opportunities to succeed before kicking them to the curb would probably do the trick, because they'll either miss out on some considerable talents or fail to maximize their assets' trade value if they don't.

Enough that I think he's a better player than rust, horny, or Kessel to even consider it. So a whole lot.

Art Ross or bust!

 

[Ogrezilla]

Art Ross or bust!

no, but considering his lack of versatility he needs to be a significantly better producer than Horny or Rust to be worth playing ahead of them. Including 5v5 since we can't play him as a depth PP specialist. If he scores at the roughly the same rate as those guys, he's clearly the worse option.

 

[Gurglesons]

Everybody here wants the Pens to make the most of their assets and be the best team possible. A simple acknowledgement that they should do their due diligence and give promising young players legitimate opportunities to succeed before kicking them to the curb would probably do the trick, because they'll either miss out on some considerable talents or fail to maximize their assets' trade value if they don't.

Yeah, I can’t believe we gave away a frivolous RW for our 3rd best defenseman most nights that is 22.

Let’s be honest, you and your fellow Sprongers want to be right and have Sprong wipe it in our face. Congrats you win. You’re right.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Everybody here wants the Pens to make the most of their assets and be the best team possible. A simple acknowledgement that they should do their due diligence and give promising young players legitimate opportunities to succeed before kicking them to the curb would probably do the trick, because they'll either miss out on some considerable talents or fail to maximize their assets' trade value if they don't.

if they'd have "kicked him to the curb" I would agree. But we got a good return for him.

It's a shame for Sprong that we are as deep as we are at RW. It made his path forward here very difficult. We just didn't have room for him without injuries, and we all agree he was a bad fit in the spot we did have open. If you want to be mad that he didn't play up in the three or so games Horny was hurt while he was still here, great. I think he should have too. But there were reasons not to do that, even if you don't agree with them. The obvious choice was to trade a RW. Arguments can be made for any of them, but I personally think Sprong was the right option considering the rest of our team and the return we got. A steady young D-man is a huge pick-up for us, but you keep acting like we got a guy from the scrap pile.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Even if Sprong improves and becomes average. Hes still our 5th best option at RW and we just traded him for a yound solid D man.

And thats IF he improves to average.

 

[MartinS82]

How much do people think that coaches base their lineup deceisions/line combinations on the players performance in practice vs their performance in games?

 

[The Old Master]

How much do people think that coaches base their lineup deceisions/line combinations on the players performance in practice vs their performance in games?

not much. if your talkin pros.

 

[MartinS82]

not much. if your talkin pros.

Probably right. I coach kids, and I put a heavy emphasis on practice - but we also practice a lot more then pros do (relative to the number of games).

 

[The Old Master]

Probably right. I coach kids, and I put a heavy emphasis on practice - but we also practice a lot more then pros do (relative to the number of games).

same with collages where you have much more time put into practices.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

no, but considering his lack of versatility he needs to be a significantly better producer than Horny or Rust to be worth playing ahead of them. Including 5v5 since we can't play him as a depth PP specialist. If he scores at the roughly the same rate as those guys, he's clearly the worse option.

If he scores at roughly the same rate as those guys while playing with Henrique while they're playing primarily with Sid and Geno though...

And it's worth noting that he's doing this at age 21. When Rust was 21 he was in his final year of college, and when Horny was 21 he had 7 points in 28 games.

Yeah, I can’t believe we gave away a frivolous RW for our 3rd best defenseman most nights that is 22.

Let’s be honest, you and your fellow Sprongers want to be right and have Sprong wipe it in our face. Congrats you win. You’re right.

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't gratifying to see Sprong thrive after all the cracks about his shot and lack of goals here and outright refusal to acknowledge that it might - just maybe - be on account of terrible deployment , but ultimately the most important thing is that something's learned from his mismanagement.

if they'd have "kicked him to the curb" I would agree. But we got a good return for him.

It's a shame for Sprong that we are as deep as we are at RW. It made his path forward here very difficult. We just didn't have room for him without injuries, and we all agree he was a bad fit in the spot we did have open. If you want to be mad that he didn't play up in the three or so games Horny was hurt while he was still here, great. I think he should have too. But there were reasons not to do that, even if you don't agree with them. The obvious choice was to trade a RW. Arguments can be made for any of them, but I personally think Sprong was the right option considering the rest of our team and the return we got. A steady young D-man is a huge pick-up for us, but you keep acting like we got a guy from the scrap pile.

We got a good return for an unproven goal scorer who was struggling in a role he was ill-suited for. Had the coach been less obstinate about denying Sprong opportunities when Hornqvist was hurt, or Rust couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door, or versatile wingers conveniently played RW exclusively when an opportunity could have opened for Sprong, he could have produced and either found a role here or upped his trade value. I'll repeat for emphasis that Horny's still injured and Sheahan's presently in our top 9.

I like Pettersson. He's been solid and it speaks volumes about his defensive ability that he can make JJ looks competent. But I don't like how we handled a promising goal-scoring talent and mismanaged his value - especially considering how few legit scoring line options we have in the pipeline. Judging from how he's performed with Anaheim's lesser centers and 2PP options in his first full season, I can't help but wonder what he'd have done here if he'd been given a real chance beside Sid or (especially) Geno, and if we did choose to move him afterwards, what we could have gotten in return with some good production under his belt.

 

[Gurglesons]

If he scores at roughly the same rate as those guys while playing with Henrique while they're playing primarily with Sid and Geno though...

And it's worth noting that he's doing this at age 21. When Rust was 21 he was in his final year of college, and when Horny was 21 he had 7 points in 28 games.



I'd be lying if I said it wasn't gratifying to see Sprong thrive after all the cracks about his shot and lack of goals here and outright refusal to acknowledge that it might - just maybe - be on account of terrible deployment , but ultimately the most important thing is that something's learned from his mismanagement.



We got a good return for an unproven goal scorer who was struggling in a role he was ill-suited for. Had the coach been less obstinate about denying Sprong opportunities when Hornqvist was hurt, or Rust couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door, or versatile wingers conveniently played RW exclusively when an opportunity could have opened for Sprong, he could have produced and either found a role here or upped his trade value. I'll repeat for emphasis that Horny's still injured and Sheahan's presently in our top 9.

I like Pettersson. He's been solid and it speaks volumes about his defensive ability that he can make JJ looks competent. But I don't like how we handled a promising goal-scoring talent and mismanaged his value - especially considering how few legit scoring line options we have in the pipeline. Judging from how he's performed with Anaheim's lesser centers and 2PP options in his first full season, I can't help but wonder what he'd have done here if he'd been given a real chance beside Sid or (especially) Geno, and if we did choose to move him afterwards, what we could have gotten in return with some good production under his belt.

So wait now he can perform with lesser centers?

We don’t need paragraphs of words to prove you’re right. You’re right congratulations.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So wait now he can perform with lesser centers?

There's a difference between a guy who just qualifies as a top 6 center like Henrique and an all-time great center like Crosby or Malkin. There's a difference between a center like Getzlaf and Crosby/Malkin. Is that controversial?

Most centers are lesser than Crosby and Malkin. I figured that was pretty well-known.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

If he scores at roughly the same rate as those guys while playing with Henrique while they're playing primarily with Sid and Geno though...

And it's worth noting that he's doing this at age 21. When Rust was 21 he was in his final year of college, and when Horny was 21 he had 7 points in 28 games.



I'd be lying if I said it wasn't gratifying to see Sprong thrive after all the cracks about his shot and lack of goals here and outright refusal to acknowledge that it might - just maybe - be on account of terrible deployment , but ultimately the most important thing is that something's learned from his mismanagement.



We got a good return for an unproven goal scorer who was struggling in a role he was ill-suited for. Had the coach been less obstinate about denying Sprong opportunities when Hornqvist was hurt, or Rust couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door, or versatile wingers conveniently played RW exclusively when an opportunity could have opened for Sprong, he could have produced and either found a role here or upped his trade value. I'll repeat for emphasis that Horny's still injured and Sheahan's presently in our top 9.

I like Pettersson. He's been solid and it speaks volumes about his defensive ability that he can make JJ looks competent. But I don't like how we handled a promising goal-scoring talent and mismanaged his value - especially considering how few legit scoring line options we have in the pipeline. Judging from how he's performed with Anaheim's lesser centers and 2PP options in his first full season, I can't help but wonder what he'd have done here if he'd been given a real chance beside Sid or (especially) Geno, and if we did choose to move him afterwards, what we could have gotten in return with some good production under his belt.

Um

Hate to burst your bubble but his production with thos top 6 centers rests comfortably between Pittsburgh versions of Ryan Reeves and the ultimate deadline disapointment Poni express.

How about he, oh i dont know actually produces 5v5 before we tout his production relative to which center he plays with 5v5.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If he scores at roughly the same rate as those guys while playing with Henrique while they're playing primarily with Sid and Geno though...

He doesn't score at roughly the same rate though. He scores significantly less than either Rust or Horny 5v5. He scores significantly less than Horny including the powerplay. Sure Sprong has a higher total p/60 than Rust, but it's a bit disingenuous to boost Sprong's with his PP time and drop Rust's with his SH time. Sprong scores at almost exactly the same rate as Rust (Sprong 1.96 vs Rust 1.93 per 60) with PP included but SH time excluded. Though if you use his rate from last year when he was getting 2nd unit time (he has 0 points on 8 minutes this year, but had 4.51 ppp/60 last year), Rust jumps back up ahead of Sprong for production at 5v5+PP.

Hell, Sprong's Ducks total rate barely edges out Rust's total 3 year rate even with Rust's SH time included: 2.12 vs 2.05. Though I guess that's not that surprising when you see that Rust's SHPoints/60 for the last three years (225 minutes) is 1.60 and Sprong's ESPoints/60 with the Ducks (219 minutes) is 1.64 and 1.42 5v5 (210 minutes). For just this year, Rust's SHPoints/60 is 1.38. So yeah, right now it's pretty clear that Rust is still producing better than Sprong. You can point to Sid if you want, but Rust is almost keeping pace with Sprong's 5v5 with the Ducks while playing shorthanded with Cullen. 0.04 p/60 difference on the year.

And none of this is me saying Sprong can't be good, or even that he hasn't been good. When I've watched him with the Ducks, he's looked good. But he's just not as good as Rust or Horny. And obviously not Kessel, who I figure we don't need to really discuss.

And it's worth noting that he's doing this at age 21. When Rust was 21 he was in his final year of college, and when Horny was 21 he had 7 points in 28 games.

It's really not though. Our goal is to be good now, so it doesn't matter how he compares to those guys when they were his age. What matters is how he compares to them now.

We got a good return for an unproven goal scorer who was struggling in a role he was ill-suited for. Had the coach been less obstinate about denying Sprong opportunities when Hornqvist was hurt, or Rust couldn't hit the broad side of a barn door, or versatile wingers conveniently played RW exclusively when an opportunity could have opened for Sprong, he could have produced and either found a role here or upped his trade value.

But he was playing really badly for us, and the guy who took the spot ahead of him (Simon) wasn't. And it's not the coaches job to worry about trade value. Sure, he could have given him a spot when Horny was hurt, but the team was struggling at the time and the coach had more faith in the guys playing better hockey and in Rust bouncing back than in Sprong.

I'll repeat for emphasis that Horny's still injured and Sheahan's presently in our top 9.

No, Horny is not still injured. Horny is injured again. And yes, Sheahan is in the top 9 now. But we both agree that Sprong can't play on the 4th line worth a damn right? So does it make sense to sit him in the press box while we're healthy just to have him as a fill-in when someone gets hurt?

I like Pettersson. He's been solid and it speaks volumes about his defensive ability that he can make JJ looks competent. But I don't like how we handled a promising goal-scoring talent and mismanaged his value - especially considering how few legit scoring line options we have in the pipeline. Judging from how he's performed with Anaheim's lesser centers and 2PP options in his first full season, I can't help but wonder what he'd have done here if he'd been given a real chance beside Sid or (especially) Geno, and if we did choose to move him afterwards, what we could have gotten in return with some good production under his belt.

I think we did a damn good job getting value from a player who we didn't have any room for on the roster. Sure, maybe we could have boosted his value a bit if we forced him ahead of guys who are better than him, but that's really not what a coach should be doing. We were losing games; Sprong's trade value was the last thing Sully should be thinking about.

The Penguins made one huge mistake with Sprong, and that was wasting a year in 2015.

 

[Gurglesons]

 

[ronduguayshair]

So sprong is skating with two fringe NHLers on the fourth line? Huh, you don't say.

 

[#1GuinFan]

Clearly trying to create some Pens magic by putting 3 ex Pens together. Smart thinking.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I was praying that they would play Sprong with Grant, I'm so disappointed they didn't do it.

 

[Jacob]

They don’t really have a 3rd line, just 2 4ths.

 

[Gurglesons]

I was praying that they would play Sprong with Grant, I'm so disappointed they didn't do it.

Sprong still gets less minutes then Grant no matter where he goes.

 

[cassius]

Is it safe to say Sprong backers are now in the "trough of disillusionment" phase?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Is it safe to say Sprong backers are now in the "trough of disillusionment" phase?

Why would anyone who supported Sprong feel "disillusioned" with how he's performed in Anaheim?

If anything they should feel vindicated.

 

[Gurglesons]

Is it safe to say Sprong backers are now in the "trough of disillusionment" phase?

I don’t think there will be a slope of enlightenment.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Why would anyone who supported Sprong feel "disillusioned" with how he's performed in Anaheim?

If anything they should feel vindicated.

Vindicated because he's a decent powerplay scorer?