Daniel Sprong Containment Thread Part 3 | Mod Warning Post #1

[Dipsy Doodle]

If you’re going to count Sprong’s PP data and then act like he should only be held accountable for his time in Anaheim in terms of totals you’re totally skewing data and it is an absolutely asisine argument. I’m sure I can very easily find a 16 game sample where Sheary was far more dominate.

There's nothing skewed about it. Using the PP production of a player whose RH shot from the left half boards is one of his main weapons is essential if you want to fairly represent his value. You wouldn't evaluate Laine's value to the Jets based solely on his ES production.

Unfortunately, this 16 game sample size is all we have of him being used in the role he should be...outside of last year, where his production was basically the same and his underlying numbers were great.

 

[Gurglesons]

There's nothing skewed about it. Using the PP production of a player whose RH shot from the left half boards is one of his main weapons is essential if you want to fairly represent his value. You wouldn't evaluate Laine's value to the Jets based solely on his ES production.

Unfortunately, this 16 game sample size is all we have of him being used in the role he should be...outside of last year, where his production was basically the same and his underlying numbers were great.

I would never compare Laine a player that has 100 goals before turning 21 to Daniel Sprong because I don’t have an obvious agenda.

I also wouldn’t use powerplay production from a team that is forced (RC honesty chooses) to run the corpse of Ryan Kessler on their top powerplay to a player that is playing behind Phil Kessel, Guentzel and Hornqvist.

But you do you. Sprong’s 1st ES goal in nearly a month gave you some pretty stats to work with. Don’t worry as was happening before he’ll regress to his mean.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I would never compare Laine a player that has 100 goals before turning 21 to Daniel Sprong because I don’t have an obvious agenda.

I also wouldn’t use powerplay production from a team that is forced (RC honesty chooses) to run the corpse of Ryan Kessler on their top powerplay to a player that is playing behind Phil Kessel, Guentzel and Hornqvist.

I used Laine as an example because he's incredible. That shows how absurd it is to pretend that PP production doesn't matter.

I don't know what point you're trying to make about Kesler and the Anaheim PP.

 

[Gurglesons]

I used Laine as an example because he's incredible. That shows how absurd it is to pretend that PP production doesn't matter.

I don't know what point you're trying to make about Kesler and the Anaheim PP.

Anaheim sucks and somebody has to score is my point.

The fact you just compared him to the players you did above is seriously a joke.

You seriously believe that Sprong’s talent is in this weight class:

Matthews
Pettersson
Laine
DeBrincat
Tkachuk
Boeser
Aho

Absolutely.

Hilarious.

Maybe the fact that if you pull 1 goal out of Sprong’s 6 his production drops by 5 goals might mean something. I dunno.

Maybe the reason people use ES goals is because is a better testament to the skill of a player to produce when all things are as equal as they will be in hockey. I dunno.

 

[Jacob]

Wait, Sprong only has 2 PP goals.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Loved Daniel The Minus’s defensive woes last night. Even in failure he still has his stat chasing fans.

The kid plays loser perimeter hockey. We are a winning organization.

Let it go.

 

[Ogrezilla]

You said he needed to do something to get himself promoted, but there's nothing a prospect like Sprong could reasonably be expected to do to get himself promoted when used in that role.

It'd be like putting Kessel on the 4th line, even now. It was never, ever going to work - they might produce some, but they're simply not going to function in a 4th line role. That doesn't mean players who can't do that aren't incredibly valuable, it means you're mistakenly evaluating them on a prerequisite that isn't in their skillset.

We've been through this before but it seems it's never going to click.

I think not being terrible would have been enough to get him promoted when Horny got hurt. But he was terrible. You're a coach trying to get your team to stop playing terrible team defense, do you move your worst defensive performer into a bigger role?

We've been through this before but it seems it's never going to click.

I can and have pointed to several things. Horny getting injured, Rust and Simon playing on LW whenever it suited Sullivan, etc.

There were plenty of opportunities, Sullivan simply didn't want to take them.

Simon was also playing better hockey than Sprong, so that one is easy. And Rust is simply not as good at LW, whether you want to agree to that or not. At this point I don't see how you can argue with Sully for giving Rust extra rope. He's showing exactly why. Not to mention, again, that the team was playing lackadaisical hockey and terrible team defense. Rust couldn't score to save his life, but at least he was hustling and not bleeding chances.

Simon and Rust can and have played LW this year (Simon's doing it right now), and Rust couldn't hit the broad side of a barn until Game 30 when a demotion to Line 4 finally got him going, so he clearly could have benefited from not being locked into that top 9 spot for over 1/3 of the year. If Sprong had been given the chances here that he was given in Anaheim and scored at a similar rate, he could have established himself and made moving versatile players around more palatable. Christ, we have Sheahan on 3LW right now, so don't tell me Sprong would have to be on our 4th line.

Stop making Rust a LW. It's not going to happen. He's a RW. And he's showing exactly why Sully gave him that rope. And sure, Simon can play LW. So as long as we have an injured RW, then we have a spot for Sprong. Considering we need an injury for him to be worth putting in the line-up because he can't play on the 4th line, I think trading him was a no-brainer.

And if Sprong was here scoring at the same rate 5v5 as he is with the Ducks, we'd be screaming to get him off the top line.

Put Hornqvist on the point and then tell me about what a poor PP player he is.

when did I say Sprong was a poor PP player? I said that's the one place he'd potentially be helping our team.

Basically, even if you are 100% right about what Sprong is, I am much happier having Pettersson on this team than the player you are describing.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Wait, Sprong only has 2 PP goals.

yeah, 3 ES goals, two PP goals, and a 3v3 goal I believe.

edit: 5v5, not ES

 

[Gurglesons]

Wait, Sprong only has 2 PP goals.

Which is why I don’t get WC’s need to try and inflate data. Even if he wants to use ES, Sprong is on pace for a respectable 20 goals.

The issue is his points per 60 is severely skewed because he’s the second coming of Brandon Pirri.

 

[Gurglesons]

yeah, 3 ES goals, two PP goals, and a 3v3 goal I believe.

3v3 is technically ES.

 

[Ogrezilla]

3v3 is technically ES.

right, 5v5.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I think the whole argument came from the fact WC didn’t care for Sheary and still believes he is ineffective as a winger while Sprong is putting up “amazing stats” while basically being Conor Sheary.

I’m not a huge Sheary fan and while Sprong has been better in Anaheim, I think Sheary is basically the archetype of player Sprong is. A 3rd wheel option that can produce with the right center and play 10-12 minutes a night.

Nothing I’ve seen proves otherwise. Even last night he scored a goal against us then gets reamed and is on the ice for 2 GA.

One step forward, two steps back. Bryan Rust, Hornqvist, and Kessel were the right decisions to hold onto and Pettersson has been lightning in a bottle for us.

I agree with all of this. I was not worried about losing Sheary and players like that are easy to replace. Players like Hornqvist, Rust, and Hagelin are harder to replace. I used to think in a perfect world it would of been nice to hold on to Sprong and watch him develop in the AHL but Rutherford got great value for him. Getting a player just as young at a position of need that can play now was great. The way Pettersson has played for the Pens makes me believe we got full value for Sprong and the last 5 games really has made me get excited about the return. I now believe that if he can build up to 190’s he can one day potentially be a player that could play on the top pairing as a more offensive Dumoulin. For a 22 year old rookie I think his development has been tremendous.

 

[zero8771]

I feel like everyone is in agreement what Sprong is right now(within some margin or error), what he could be in the future, and what Petterson has meant to the pens so far. What is still being argued here. Ive lost track.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Which is why I don’t get WC’s need to try and inflate data. Even if he wants to use ES, Sprong is on pace for a respectable 20 goals.

The issue is his points per 60 is severely skewed because he’s the second coming of Brandon Pirri.

His 5v5 points per 60 is Craig Adams bad. He might be a good PP player but a poor defensive 4th liner is what he is at 5v5.

So the nonsense concept that a few people keep pushing that hes now thriving because hes now a top 6er is hilarious.

A hell of a PP player but...that...is...it.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

2 assists tonight. 9 points in 17 games with the Ducks. But HelliSuck is in net for Jets though.
Tonight he has looked good in all areas of the ice, could turn into a more rounded player than Pirri

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sprong getting 2 points when on the ice with Rowney (who also got points on both goals) is just hilarious to me, seeing how so many people tried to excuse his production with the Penguins because of who he was playing with.

 

[Ryder71]

2 assists tonight. 9 points in 17 games with the Ducks. But HelliSuck is in net for Jets though.
Tonight he has looked good in all areas of the ice, could turn into a more rounded player than Pirri

I haven't seen many Ducks game since he's been traded there, but in the four or five I have seen, including two against the Pens I thought he had good showings. He's a good passer along with his shot. That's an underrated component to his game IMO. Nine points in 17 games, not bad.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Sprong getting 2 points when on the ice with Rowney (who also got points on both goals) is just hilarious to me, seeing how so many people tried to excuse his production with the Penguins because of who he was playing with.

Both goals scored by guys without hands: Gibbons + Cogliano. Rowney is our 3rd best center atm but he's playing on the 4th line cause were tanking.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But you do you. Sprong’s 1st ES goal in nearly a month gave you some pretty stats to work with. Don’t worry as was happening before he’ll regress to his mean.

Are Sprong's 2 points (at ES!) tonight the beginning of the regression?

Anaheim sucks and somebody has to score is my point.

So points scored there don't count. That's a new one.

The fact you just compared him to the players you did above is seriously a joke.

You seriously believe that Sprong’s talent is in this weight class:

Matthews
Pettersson
Laine
DeBrincat
Tkachuk
Boeser
Aho

Absolutely.

Hilarious.

That was not a subjective list that I just made up. That's a factual list of the only players in Sprong's age group who are putting up goals at a better pace than he is in Anaheim.

Maybe the fact that if you pull 1 goal out of Sprong’s 6 his production drops by 5 goals might mean something. I dunno.

Maybe the reason people use ES goals is because is a better testament to the skill of a player to produce when all things are as equal as they will be in hockey. I dunno.

PP goals count the same as ES goals on the scoreboard. Most of the best goal scorers in the league get a good portion of their goals in that manner. I'm sorry if that bothers you.

I think not being terrible would have been enough to get him promoted when Horny got hurt. But he was terrible. You're a coach trying to get your team to stop playing terrible team defense, do you move your worst defensive performer into a bigger role?

We've been through this before but it seems it's never going to click.

Simon was also playing better hockey than Sprong, so that one is easy. And Rust is simply not as good at LW, whether you want to agree to that or not. At this point I don't see how you can argue with Sully for giving Rust extra rope. He's showing exactly why. Not to mention, again, that the team was playing lackadaisical hockey and terrible team defense. Rust couldn't score to save his life, but at least he was hustling and not bleeding chances.

Sprong was put in a position where he couldn't succeed - a worse position than Simon or Rust have ever seen, so talking about them playing better hockey is bogus. They were placed in diametrically opposite circumstances. And this despite Sprong being a player whose skillset is less tailored to that role than either of them.

He was top 6 or bust from the beginning, so the coach buries him on the 4th line for 8 minutes a night and says "sink or swim". That's idiotic.

Stop making Rust a LW. It's not going to happen. He's a RW. And he's showing exactly why Sully gave him that rope. And sure, Simon can play LW. So as long as we have an injured RW, then we have a spot for Sprong. Considering we need an injury for him to be worth putting in the line-up because he can't play on the 4th line, I think trading him was a no-brainer.

And if Sprong was here scoring at the same rate 5v5 as he is with the Ducks, we'd be screaming to get him off the top line.

Well if we're going to use circular logic, sure. I'm showing how and when we had options to play Sprong on RW. We've had so many injuries, struggling RWs, and wingers who can play both sides that Sprong could have been in a regular top 9 role. Whatever other reason people want to trot out for why Sprong didn't get a chance here, the "we had too much depth on RW" argument doesn't fly.

when did I say Sprong was a poor PP player? I said that's the one place he'd potentially be helping our team.

Basically, even if you are 100% right about what Sprong is, I am much happier having Pettersson on this team than the player you are describing.

You said sarcastically that he didn't score on the PP because "he was in the wrong spot". Well, he was. If you put a player who specializes in a certain role on the PP in another spot, like Hornqvist on the point, then it wouldn't be because Hornqvist is bad 5-on-4, it'd be because the coach isn't using him properly.

Sprong put up another 2 points tonight. How many points would he have to put up this year for you to start questioning this move?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Are Sprong's 2 points (at ES!) tonight the beginning of the regression?



So points scored there don't count. That's a new one.



That was not a subjective list that I just made up. That's a factual list of the only players in Sprong's age group who are putting up goals at a better pace than he is in Anaheim.



PP goals count the same as ES goals on the scoreboard. Most of the best goal scorers in the league get a good portion of their goals in that manner. I'm sorry if that bothers you.



Sprong was put in a position where he couldn't succeed - a worse position than Simon or Rust have ever seen, so talking about them playing better hockey is bogus. They were placed in diametrically opposite circumstances. And this despite Sprong being a player whose skillset is less tailored to that role than either of them.

He was top 6 or bust from the beginning, so the coach buries him on the 4th line for 8 minutes a night and says "sink or swim". That's idiotic.



Well if we're going to use circular logic, sure. I'm showing how and when we had options to play Sprong on RW. We've had so many injuries, struggling RWs, and wingers who can play both sides that Sprong could have been in a regular top 9 role. Whatever other reason people want to trot out for why Sprong didn't get a chance here, the "we had too much depth on RW" argument doesn't fly.



You said sarcastically that he didn't score on the PP because "he was in the wrong spot". Well, he was. If you put a player who specializes in a certain role on the PP in another spot, like Hornqvist on the point, then it wouldn't be because Hornqvist is bad 5-on-4, it'd be because the coach isn't using him properly.

Sprong put up another 2 points tonight. How many points would he have to put up this year for you to start questioning this move?

Enough that I think he's a better player than rust, horny, or Kessel to even consider it. So a whole lot.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Wow i had no idea that someone to win a Norris Trophy as a Penguin is Randy Carlyle in 1981 with 83 points that year. Also Dan Blysma former coach for the Penguins was a player on the Ducks 2003 Cup Finals team that lost to NJ in game 7.

 

[Gurglesons]

Wow i had no idea that someone to win a Norris Trophy as a Penguin is Randy Carlyle in 1981 with 83 points that year. Also Dan Blysma former coach for the Penguins was a player on the Ducks 2003 Cup Finals team that lost to NJ in game 7.

The more you know.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are Sprong's 2 points (at ES!) tonight the beginning of the regression?



So points scored there don't count. That's a new one.



That was not a subjective list that I just made up. That's a factual list of the only players in Sprong's age group who are putting up goals at a better pace than he is in Anaheim.



PP goals count the same as ES goals on the scoreboard. Most of the best goal scorers in the league get a good portion of their goals in that manner. I'm sorry if that bothers you.



Sprong was put in a position where he couldn't succeed - a worse position than Simon or Rust have ever seen, so talking about them playing better hockey is bogus. They were placed in diametrically opposite circumstances. And this despite Sprong being a player whose skillset is less tailored to that role than either of them.

He was top 6 or bust from the beginning, so the coach buries him on the 4th line for 8 minutes a night and says "sink or swim". That's idiotic.



Well if we're going to use circular logic, sure. I'm showing how and when we had options to play Sprong on RW. We've had so many injuries, struggling RWs, and wingers who can play both sides that Sprong could have been in a regular top 9 role. Whatever other reason people want to trot out for why Sprong didn't get a chance here, the "we had too much depth on RW" argument doesn't fly.



You said sarcastically that he didn't score on the PP because "he was in the wrong spot". Well, he was. If you put a player who specializes in a certain role on the PP in another spot, like Hornqvist on the point, then it wouldn't be because Hornqvist is bad 5-on-4, it'd be because the coach isn't using him properly.

Sprong put up another 2 points tonight. How many points would he have to put up this year for you to start questioning this move?

Sweet dude. I was wrong. You were right. Sprong is elite and deserved a look with Sid consistently and having the second powerplay based around him.

I can’t do this anymore.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

The more you know.

In other words many years from now Guentzel will be coaching the Ducks & Getzlaf will be coaching the Penguins & Both coaches will win a cup as a coach.

 

[Rakell67]

Enough that I think he's a better player than rust, horny, or Kessel to even consider it. So a whole lot.

Rowney had 3 points. We should have kept him as our 3rd line all-star/future hof center. Both him and Sprong definitely bring intangibles that help their team avoid 11 straight losses.