Daniel Sprong Containment Thread Part 3 | Mod Warning Post #1

[DegenX]

Daniel Sprong is the topic of discussion in this thread, not each other.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I mean sure, points are points. But he doesn't actually score more points than our other options, and he doesn't bring as much as they do outside of points. And when he has to be played with our skilled centers to be effective at 5v5, you really should be considering how he does at 5v5. Scoring on the powerplay is nice, but it doesn't make him a good top 9 wing option for us. He's simply not as good as Kessel, Horny, or Rust at 5v5. And we agree that he shouldn't be on our 4th line. So is he so good at the powerplay to be worth playing him on the 4th line anyway? Or so good that it's worth making a top 9 line worse to keep him in the line-up?

Sprong doesn't score more beside Henrique than they do beside Sid and Geno, no. Why anyone would expect that, I don't know. There's a reason why any winger for our superstar centers basically gets an asterisk beside their totals because of the bump they get from playing beside the very best in the world.

Our fundamental disagreement is with how you're framing the discussion - a definitive "either/or" between Sprong and Rust/Hornqvist as a top 9 RW. It is not now and never has been that. The opportunities for Sprong to establish himself here as a regular option were during the first 29 games of the season when Rust was trash and every time Hornqvist has been injured. Combined, there's probably been about 80% of the season where Sprong could have been playing in a top 9 RW role without bumping a more deserving option out of a spot, as is the case right now. If they wanted to HS the kid for the remaining 20% of the season, by all means.

I'm not saying Sprong is a bad player. He's been solid to good every time I've seen him with the Ducks. But he's worse than our other options for the same positions except for on PP2. And since we simply don't have a decent position for him when healthy since he can't play on the 4th line, trading him made perfect sense to me. He's not so good on the powerplay to justify keeping him around just for the powerplay, or just to fill in when we have injuries.

This is the key to everything.

As a practical matter, we do get injuries and have them now. Horny's been injured for 12 games and we also had about 3/4 of the present season where one of the other entrenched top 9 RWs was absolutely useless offensively. These were/could have been chances for Sprong, and had he been given the chance he could be doing at least as much for us as he's doing for Anaheim (likely more), and the only players who'd have been displaced were an offensively useless Rust and Riley Sheahan, neither of which would have been a loss.

And I'm not saying Pettersson's a bad player. But we're scratching Riikola half the time because of the coach's dubious priorities so those nights are essentially a wash, and our team's "improvement" is being measured by some here and various media outlets by how well we're doing with Pettersson vs. how we performed while burying Sprong, which is messed up to begin with.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Sprong doesn't score more beside Henrique than they do beside Sid and Geno, no. Why anyone would expect that, I don't know. There's a reason why any winger for our superstar centers basically gets an asterisk beside their totals because of the bump they get from playing beside the very best in the world.

Further, our fundamental disagreement is with how you're framing the discussion - a definitive "either/or" between Sprong and Rust/Hornqvist as a top 9 RW. It is not now and never has been that. The opportunities for Sprong to establish himself here as a regular option were during the first 29 games of the season when Rust was trash and every time Hornqvist has been injured. Combined, there's probably been about 80% of the season where Sprong could have been playing in a top 9 RW role without bumping a more deserving option out of a spot, and as is the case right now. If they wanted to HS the kid for the remaining 20% of the season, by all means.



This is the key to everything.

As a practical matter, we do get injuries and have them now. Horny's been injured for 12 games and we also had about 3/4 of the present season where one of the other entrenched top 9 RWs was absolutely useless offensively. These were/could have been chances for Sprong, and had he been given the chance he could be doing at least as much for us as he's doing for Anaheim (likely more), and the only players who'd have been displaced were an offensively useless Rust and Riley Sheahan, neither of which would have been a loss.

And I'm not saying Pettersson's a bad player. But we're scratching Riikola half the time because of the coach's dubious priorities so those nights are essentially a wash, and our team's "improvement" is being measured by some here and various media outlets by how well we're doing with Pettersson vs. how we performed while burying Sprong, which is messed up to begin with.

Sprong doesnt score more beside Henrique than Reaves did with Rowney. Thats the problem.

 

[3074326]

And I'm not saying Pettersson's a bad player. But we're scratching Riikola half the time because of the coach's dubious priorities so those nights are essentially a wash, and our team's "improvement" is being measured by some here and various media outlets by how well we're doing with Pettersson vs. how we performed while burying Sprong, which is messed up to begin with.

So, the Ducks going into a free-fall and the Pens getting super hot immediately after the trade is just coincidence, despite Pettersson looking very good and turning the second pair into a legitimate second pair? Why is "improvement" in quotes? The improvement is being measured by wins and losses and the wins are piling up compared to pre-trade days. You're literally ignoring everything indicating that this is a good trade to defend the honor of one Daniel Sprong. Why? What's the purpose? The team is clearly better now.

Sprong was "buried" behind three better players who have been here longer and done more for us the entirety of their time on the roster. Sprong was a luxury and his value was best used as a trade asset to improve the team. That's what they did, and what a shock, it worked!

Riikola has nothing to do with Daniel Sprong and Marcus Pettersson. That's a strawman.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So, the Ducks going into a free-fall and the Pens getting super hot immediately after the trade is just coincidence, despite Pettersson looking very good and turning the second pair into a legitimate second pair? Why is "improvement" in quotes? The improvement is being measured by wins and losses and the wins are piling up compared to pre-trade days. You're literally ignoring everything indicating that this is a good trade to defend the honor of one Daniel Sprong. Why? What's the purpose? The team is clearly better now.

Sprong was "buried" behind three better players who have been here longer and done more for us the entirety of their time on the roster. Sprong was a luxury and his value was best used as a trade asset to improve the team. That's what they did, and what a shock, it worked!

Riikola has nothing to do with Daniel Sprong and Marcus Pettersson. That's a strawman.

I explained exactly why. I can't make it more plain than I've already said it.

If there's a lack of understanding here, it can't be helped.

 

[mpp9]

Sprong's not very good. Pettersson looks like a longterm second pairing D. That's my expert analysis.

 

[EightyOne]

Also, the team winning and losing streaks were almost 100% coincidental.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And I'm not saying Pettersson's a bad player. But we're scratching Riikola half the time because of the coach's dubious priorities so those nights are essentially a wash, and our team's "improvement" is being measured by some here and various media outlets by how well we're doing with Pettersson vs. how we performed while burying Sprong, which is messed up to begin with.

Reading crap like this just makes me want Sprong to bust, because this is just spewing garbage. Don't tear down Pettersson to try to prop up Sprong. Pettersson has been legitimately fantastic for the Penguins, you trying to tear him down to prop up Sprong destroys any shred of objectivity anyone thinks you may have left.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sprong doesn't score more beside Henrique than they do beside Sid and Geno, no. Why anyone would expect that, I don't know. There's a reason why any winger for our superstar centers basically gets an asterisk beside their totals because of the bump they get from playing beside the very best in the world.

Stop using this as if it means something. Sprong doesn't score as much beside Henrique as Rust scores beside Matt Cullen at 4v5. (Sprong 1.29 5v5 P/60 with the Ducks, Rust 1.45 SHP/60) There's seriously no reasonable argument for saying Sprong is even close to as good as Rust or Horny at this point. Maybe he can be some day, but right now he's not. Seriously, Rust and Sprong are tied for total P/60 despite one getting PP time and the other getting SH time instead. oh, and Rust is better at everything else too.

Our fundamental disagreement is with how you're framing the discussion - a definitive "either/or" between Sprong and Rust/Hornqvist as a top 9 RW. It is not now and never has been that. The opportunities for Sprong to establish himself here as a regular option were during the first 29 games of the season when Rust was trash and every time Hornqvist has been injured. Combined, there's probably been about 80% of the season where Sprong could have been playing in a top 9 RW role without bumping a more deserving option out of a spot, as is the case right now. If they wanted to HS the kid for the remaining 20% of the season, by all means.

First off, Sprong also was playing like crap. And Rust had earned some leash by being good for three years prior. And Horny missed like 3 or 4 games while Sprong was here. And both of them played hard and actually played defense on a team who was playing awful team defense. Meanwhile Sprong was the worst defensive forward on the team that was riddled with awful defensive play from forwards. And it's kinda silly to keep a kid who is playing badly and doesn't have a spot when healthy when you can trade him to fill actual needs.

As a practical matter, we do get injuries and have them now. Horny's been injured for 12 games and we also had about 3/4 of the present season where one of the other entrenched top 9 RWs was absolutely useless offensively. These were/could have been chances for Sprong, and had he been given the chance he could be doing at least as much for us as he's doing for Anaheim (likely more), and the only players who'd have been displaced were an offensively useless Rust and Riley Sheahan, neither of which would have been a loss.

As a practical matter, keeping a winger who requires a spot in the top 9 to be playable when you have 3 players who fit those spots better than he does just doesn't make sense. And actually 4 with Simon.

And I'm not saying Pettersson's a bad player. But we're scratching Riikola half the time because of the coach's dubious priorities so those nights are essentially a wash, and our team's "improvement" is being measured by some here and various media outlets by how well we're doing with Pettersson vs. how we performed while burying Sprong, which is messed up to begin with.

I feel like Pettersson has shown to bring a very different quality to our team than Riikola. And they are both playing a good bit of the time. And it was especially good to have both when Oleksiak was hurt. Our D mess was a far bigger problem than any issue we have at wing.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Stop using this as if it means something. Sprong doesn't score as much beside Henrique as Rust scores beside Matt Cullen on the ****ing penalty kill. (Sprong 1.29 5v5 P/60 with the Ducks, Rust 1.45 SHP/60) There's seriously no reasonable argument for saying Sprong is even close to as good as Rust or Horny at this point. Maybe he can be some day, but right now he's not. Seriously, Rust and Sprong are tied for total P/60 despite one getting PP time and the other getting SH time instead.



First off, Sprong also was playing like crap. And Rust had earned some leash by being good for three years prior. And Horny missed like 3 or 4 games while Sprong was here. And both of them played hard and actually played defense on a team who was playing awful team defense. Meanwhile Sprong was the worst defensive forward on the team that was riddled with awful defensive play from forwards. And it's kinda silly to keep a kid who is playing badly and doesn't have a spot when healthy when you can trade him to fill actual needs.



As a practical matter, keeping a winger who requires a spot in the top 9 to be playable when you have 3 players who fit those spots better than he does just doesn't make sense. And actually 4 with Simon.



I feel like Pettersson has shown to bring a very different quality to our team than Riikola. And they are both playing a good bit of the time. And it was especially good to have both when Oleksiak was hurt. Our D mess was a far bigger problem than any issue we have at wing.

Bravo.

A month ago The only thingbthat mattered is Sprong p/69 in a miniscule sample size.

Now that hes playing top 6 linemates and minutes it is ignored to say hes scoring in the top 6.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Stop using this as if it means something. Sprong doesn't score as much beside Henrique as Rust scores beside Matt Cullen at 4v5. (Sprong 1.29 5v5 P/60 with the Ducks, Rust 1.45 SHP/60) There's seriously no reasonable argument for saying Sprong is even close to as good as Rust or Horny at this point. Maybe he can be some day, but right now he's not. Seriously, Rust and Sprong are tied for total P/60 despite one getting PP time and the other getting SH time instead. oh, and Rust is better at everything else too.

The issue was never who would score more next to Matt Cullen, in a 4th line role. That was never the argument, and the stat means nothing because it's indicative of nothing.

First off, Sprong also was playing like crap. And Rust had earned some leash by being good for three years prior. And Horny missed like 3 or 4 games while Sprong was here. And both of them played hard and actually played defense on a team who was playing awful team defense. Meanwhile Sprong was the worst defensive forward on the team that was riddled with awful defensive play from forwards. And it's kinda silly to keep a kid who is playing badly and doesn't have a spot when healthy when you can trade him to fill actual needs.

These are just the same BS arguments again and again. Sprong was buried in his own end for 8:30 a night, the amount of leash given to Rust when he was performing that poorly was absurd and unnecessary, and Hornqvist was injured both before Sprong was dealt and after...which is also relevant because it rebuts the idea that Sprong wouldn't have gotten regular work here if he had established himself.

The chances were and remain there. The idea that Sprong couldn't have had a role here even if he'd been productive when given a chance isn't supported by anything other than a fantasy world where Rust needed to have 29 unproductive games as a top 9 RW to get to where he is now and Hornqvist hasn't been injured.

As a practical matter, keeping a winger who requires a spot in the top 9 to be playable when you have 3 players who fit those spots better than he does just doesn't make sense. And actually 4 with Simon.

The reality of the situation is that we could have used an RW who could score over the first 29 games of the season and we currently have Riley Sheahan in our top 6.

I feel like Pettersson has shown to bring a very different quality to our team than Riikola. And they are both playing a good bit of the time. And it was especially good to have both when Oleksiak was hurt. Our D mess was a far bigger problem than any issue we have at wing.

Maybe when JR can clear out some of the chaff on the blueline we'll have a better idea about whether this was a good move for the team.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Rust has proven why te leash was long.

Sprong has proven why he didnt deserve one. To two teams now.

Pettersson has been good regardless of whichever excuse your trying to invent now.

Its pathetic.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Reading crap like this just makes me want Sprong to bust, because this is just spewing garbage. Don't tear down Pettersson to try to prop up Sprong. Pettersson has been legitimately fantastic for the Penguins, you trying to tear him down to prop up Sprong destroys any shred of objectivity anyone thinks you may have left.

I "tore down Pettersson"?

Good lord, Empo. Where?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I "tore down Pettersson"?

Good lord, Empo. Where?

Maybe when JR can clear out some of the chaff on the blueline we'll have a better idea about whether this was a good move for the team.

This seems pretty damn clear to me. Pettersson has been amazing for the Penguins. Full stop. Saying anything else is just a blatant lie. It is just coming from you being a Sprong megafan and you being pissed that they traded Sprong for Pettersson.

 

[DegenX]

This seems pretty damn clear to me. Pettersson has been amazing for the Penguins. Full stop. Saying anything else is just a blatant lie. It is just coming from you being a Sprong megafan and you being pissed that they traded Sprong for Pettersson.

An opinion is neither the truth nor a lie. It is an opinion. Perhaps you should put this thread on ignore.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This seems pretty damn clear to me. Pettersson has been amazing for the Penguins. Full stop. Saying anything else is just a blatant lie. It is just coming from you being a Sprong megafan and you being pissed that they traded Sprong for Pettersson.

If it does, then you're inferring something that wasn't implied.

I never suggested Pettersson was what needed to be cleared out of the Pens blueline...the opposite, actually. My entire posting history would support that too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If it does, then you're inferring something that wasn't implied.

I never suggested Pettersson was what needed to be cleared out of the Pens blueline...the opposite, actually. My entire posting history would support that too.

You're casting doubt on an obviously great move for the Penguins, it being a great move is based on how Pettersson has played. That is the part that seems like is "tearing down Pettersson". Even if you're comparing what Sprong could have potentially done vs what Pettersson has done, it would have still been a good move based on how strong Pettersson has played for the Penguins.

No one should be casting doubt over whether the deal was great for the Penguins, because anyone without any bias here can tell that's obviously the case. From looking at what Sprong was for the Penguins vs what Pettersson has been, it has been arguably Rutherford's best trade as the Penguins GM. It's on par with Scuderi for Daley. From looking what Sprong could have potentially been vs what Pettersson has been, it's still a good trade because Pettersson fills a much bigger need for the Penguins than Sprong ever could have.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You're casting doubt on an obviously great move for the Penguins, it being a great move is based on how Pettersson has played. That is the part that seems like is "tearing down Pettersson". Even if you're comparing what Sprong could have potentially done vs what Pettersson has done, it would have still been a good move based on how strong Pettersson has played for the Penguins.

No one should be casting doubt over whether the deal was great for the Penguins, because anyone without any bias here can tell that's obviously the case.

That's not obvious at all. We are definitely better with Pettersson than we were with Sprong getting 8:30 on the 4th though.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's not obvious at all. We are definitely better with Pettersson than we were with Sprong getting 8:30 on the 4th though.

"anyone without any bias"

I think you ignored this part. Go start a poll on here for whether that was a great trade for the Penguins. I guarantee that 95%+ will be saying yes it was a great trade. The vast majority of Penguins fans think the trade was fantastic for the Penguins, because they got a great young player in a big position of need for a struggling prospect who didn't have a spot long term. This doesn't have anything to do with how Sprong does in Anaheim, this has to do with Sprong in Pittsburgh vs Pettersson in Pittsburgh.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

"anyone without any bias"

I think you ignored this part. Go start a poll on here for whether that was a great trade for the Penguins. I guarantee that 95%+ will be saying yes it was a great trade. The vast majority of Penguins fans think the trade was fantastic for the Penguins, because they got a great young player in a big position of need for a struggling prospect who didn't have a spot long term. This doesn't have anything to do with how Sprong does in Anaheim, this has to do with Sprong in Pittsburgh vs Pettersson in Pittsburgh.

Again, that's where we disagree.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The issue was never who would score more next to Matt Cullen, in a 4th line role. That was never the argument, and the stat means nothing because it's indicative of nothing.

But Rust also scores more at even strength. If Sprong playing with Henrique can't outproduce Rust's PK production, I don't want him with Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin. He's nowhere close to good enough on the powerplay to justify his limitations over our other options. Like I've said, he would need to absolutely blow Rust or Horny's production out of the water to justify playing over them because they are better at literally everything else. And as is, they are also better at producing. Horny just straight up outproduces him, and Rust is dead even for production despite trading PP time for PK time. If Sprong can't outproduce our RW's in his and their current situations, he's not good enough to overcome all of the other ways that our RW's are better than him. Which means he doesn't have a place on this team.

These are just the same BS arguments again and again. Sprong was buried in his own end for 8:30 a night, the amount of leash given to Rust when he was performing that poorly was absurd and unnecessary, and Hornqvist was injured both before Sprong was dealt and after...which is also relevant because it rebuts the idea that Sprong wouldn't have gotten regular work here if he had established himself.

The chances were and remain there. The idea that Sprong couldn't have had a role here even if he'd been productive when given a chance isn't supported by anything other than a fantasy world where Rust needed to have 29 unproductive games as a top 9 RW to get to where he is now and Hornqvist hasn't been injured.

They were there in limited quantity, yes. We could have given him more of a shot. I would have. But there were reasons not to. Just like there were reasons to trade him. I just don't think he showed enough to feel like he was treated unfairly, and he sure as shit hasn't done enough at this point to make it look like the wrong decision.

The reality of the situation is that we could have used an RW who could score over the first 29 games of the season and we currently have Riley Sheahan in our top 6.

When Sprong shows that he can do that at a decent level, I'll start to think about whether we made the right move. As is, he scores reasonably well on the powerplay, and badly in the top 6.

Maybe when JR can clear out some of the chaff on the blueline we'll have a better idea about whether this was a good move for the team.

I'd rather have Pettersson push Riikola into the press box than have Sprong in the press box. We need the D depth more than the wing depth. With Horny and ZAR both out, I'm still happier with Pettersson over Sprong.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Sprong produces points in Anaheims top 6, at the rate of fourth liners.

Sprongs only value is offense.

Now figure out not only why he didnt have a spot over good players like Rust, Kessel and Hornqvist, but why hes constantly being demoted to teams 4th lines.

It shouldnt be that hard.

Again, fourth line offensive despite playing in the top 6, and no other 5v5 value.

Figure it out.

 

[The Old Master]

Sprong produces points in Anaheims top 6, at the rate of fourth liners.

have you seen the ducks top 6 ? they are 4th liners. and why do I keep coming back to this thread? the last 600 posts are a repeat of the first ten.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

have you seen the ducks top 6 ? they are 4th liners. and why do I keep coming back to this thread? the last 600 posts are a repeat of the first ten.

Henrique, Getzlaf, Ritchie etc are not 4th liners.

Also a side note if you really want to know...

Garrett Wilson and Derek Grant now has a higher p/60 5v5 than Daniel Sprong.

Grant - 1.55 (in Pittsburgh)
Wilson - 1.40
Sprong - 1.28 (in Anaheim)

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Sprong produces points in Anaheims top 6, at the rate of fourth liners.

Sprongs only value is offense.

Now figure out not only why he didnt have a spot over good players like Rust, Kessel and Hornqvist, but why hes constantly being demoted to teams 4th lines.

It shouldnt be that hard.

Again, fourth line offensive despite playing in the top 6, and no other 5v5 value.

Figure it out.

Seems simple to me. Sprong has been given a long look on the top PP and playing on 1st and 2nd lines of Ducks and still has terrible 5v5 numbers. If you do play Sprong 15+ minutes a game on top PP and top 6 you will get 25+ goals but only 30’s points and poor overall play.

Maybe someday he fixes those other issues and becomes an effective player but even if he does I think Pettersson would be worth a one dimensional winger that becomes a 20+ goal productive winger. I still believe Sprong will most likely be a bust but he does have a shot to make it. The truth is Pettersson looks like a top 4 type defenseman with 30+ point ability while playing good defense. That is always worth even the best case scenario of what Sprong can become.

As of right now it is not even close. What Pettersson has done for the Pens has been much better than what Sprong has shown for the Ducks. Sprong seems to be demoted already playing less minutes and it has been many games now in a row in which he no longer is getting top 6 minutes played. The Ducks tried the experiment and realize just like the Pens Sprong is not ready for top 6 minutes and is not a productive player 5v5 getting those minutes.

This has been an easy judgement that this was a great trade for the Pens. Maybe someday it will be a win win trade but for now Pens win this deal.