Confirmed with Link: Dane Fox traded to Canes for future considerations

[ahmon]

Marino turns 30 this year and is not Canuck property.

Seems like, on a development team given the choice of two high-scoring ECHLers, you should play the young guy that you're theoretically trying to develop.

The comets aren't 100% only suppose to develop prospects for the canucks.

They also want to win games. Travis Green and the comets management try their best to win and develop young players.

The point is, it doesn't make any sense why current management would want to unfairly stagnate Fox's career, to prop up a player who isn't even theirs.

Look at Cole Cassels, he is another Gillis pick no?

He has struggled mightily at the AHL level, but Travis Green I remember raved about him in past young star tournaments. Consequently Cassels has been given much more of a rope at the AHL level.

If current management really hates everything from previous regime, they could have easily sent Cassels down.

 

[Tiranis]

The comets aren't 100% only suppose to develop prospects for the canucks.

They pretty much are. Any winning they do is a by-product of creating a good environment for those prospects to develop in. That's why they were created in the first place instead of continuing our affiliation with other AHL organizations that were focused on winning & running a successful business.

Considering they found a spot for Stewart, the guy that no WHL team wanted to start the year, I think it's pretty clear that they're open to prioritizing prospects development over icing the best possible lineup.

 

[MS]

The comets aren't 100% only suppose to develop prospects for the canucks.

They also want to win games. Travis Green and the comets management try their best to win and develop young players.

The point is, it doesn't make any sense why current management would want to unfairly stagnate Fox's career, to prop up a player who isn't even theirs.

I don't know where the problem was, and if it was at the Utica or Vancouver level.

If Utica is doing things that are adverse to player development, our management should be stepping in to correct them.

Again, we aren't talking about some scrub who didn't deserve to get a look. Guy was leading the ECHL in goals. I don't think there was going to be a huge difference in 'helping win games' between Marino and Fox.

 

[MS]

They pretty much are. Any winning they do is a by-product of creating a good environment for those prospects to develop in. That's why they were created in the first place instead of continuing our affiliation with other AHL organizations that were focused on winning & running a successful business.

And yeah, also this.

 

[ahmon]

I don't know where the problem was, and if it was at the Utica or Vancouver level.

If Utica is doing things that are adverse to player development, our management should be stepping in to correct them.

Again, we aren't talking about some scrub who didn't deserve to get a look. Guy was leading the ECHL in goals. I don't think there was going to be a huge difference in 'helping win games' between Marino and Fox.

from the looks of it, Travis Green and the comets management seems to believe Marino helps them more.

I think that's the logically reasoning there.

 

[MS]

from the looks of it, Travis Green and the comets management seems to believe Marino helps them more.

I think that's the logically reasoning there.

... and there are tons of players floating around who could help them more than Cole Cassels and Ashton Sautner and on and on. But those guys play because this is a developmental team that exists solely to develop young players for the parent club.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

from the looks of it, Travis Green and the comets management seems to believe Marino helps them more.

I think that's the logically reasoning there.

Sure, but why aren't we allowed to question their belief? Last season the Canucks believed that Clendening was so much better than Biega and Sanguinetti that he was worth giving up Forsling to get.

 

[ahmon]

... and there are tons of players floating around who could help them more than Cole Cassels and Ashton Sautner and on and on. But those guys play because this is a developmental team that exists solely to develop young players for the parent club.

Can you have a NHL team full with young players? or do you need some vets to support a developing team?

Wouldn't that apply to the AHL?

The point is Travis Green and management "clearly' identified Cassels are a superior prospect to develop rather than Fox. You can disagree with their opinion.

But considering both were Gillis picks, it sure looks like there are other factors other than what you are suggesting - which is anything from Gillis regime is pushed to the side.

I'm actually surprised at how much rope Cassels has in the AHL.

 

[ahmon]

Sure, but why aren't we allowed to question their belief? Last season the Canucks believed that Clendening was so much better than Biega and Sanguinetti that he was worth giving up Forsling to get.

You can question it, for sure.

I have no problem if you believe the decision is wrong.

But I don't like how Fox not given an opportunity is without a doubt because he's a Gillis project.

 

[Jyrki21]

You can question it, for sure.

I have no problem if you believe the decision is wrong.

But I don't like how Fox not given an opportunity is without a doubt because he's a Gillis project.

It's an educated guess based on management's prior actions. Like every other hypothesis in life.

 

[Intangibos]

You can question it, for sure.

I have no problem if you believe the decision is wrong.

But I don't like how Fox not given an opportunity is without a doubt because he's a Gillis project.

It's not without a doubt. It could also have been because of character issues 5 or 6 years ago, we know how this management likes to 'work with' players who have problems.

This management group has been here long enough that patterns are beginning to show. There has been some clear favouritism towards Benning guys, and Gillis guys dumped for nothing (though a Benning guy in Forsling was dumped for nothing, but I doubt Benning was personally scouting 5th rounders, so he could have seen him as a product of Gillis' scouting staff).

I think it's fair to question whether Gillis guys who haven't already proven themselves as NHLers are getting a fair shot or not at this point, especially when compared to Benning guys being fed opportunity after opportunity.

 

[go comets]

i am sure Benning and company talk to both Conacher and green on a regular basis. but i seriously doubt they are given orders to play certain players over others. is it discussed?? most defiantly. i am sure Benning and crew have said "lets give player x a few games and see how he does... a week or two later the conversation continues with Conacher and Green saying 'player x is not gonna cut it here, gotta get sent down" but now we are 2/3 of the way through the season, playoffs are in sight. im sure everyone agrees that making the playoffs is important for this group. its not the time to bring in player fox and see how many defensive assignments he can screw up.... just remeber, Bloomstrand puts up good numbers in the ECHL also,(well except that horrible + -) and he had no chance of fitting in. its not just scoring, its being in shape, its about going hard for 40 seconds, its about passion...... obviously Fox and for that matter Bloomstrand lack some of these..... maybe he does not fit in in the locker room, maybe he has attitude problems......could be anything.....

 

[Bad Goalie]

i am sure Benning and company talk to both Conacher and green on a regular basis. but i seriously doubt they are given orders to play certain players over others. is it discussed?? most defiantly. i am sure Benning and crew have said "lets give player x a few games and see how he does... a week or two later the conversation continues with Conacher and Green saying 'player x is not gonna cut it here, gotta get sent down" but now we are 2/3 of the way through the season, playoffs are in sight. im sure everyone agrees that making the playoffs is important for this group. its not the time to bring in player fox and see how many defensive assignments he can screw up.... just remeber, Bloomstrand puts up good numbers in the ECHL also,(well except that horrible + -) and he had no chance of fitting in. its not just scoring, its being in shape, its about going hard for 40 seconds, its about passion...... obviously Fox and for that matter Bloomstrand lack some of these..... maybe he does not fit in in the locker room, maybe he has attitude problems......could be anything.....

I hate to argue with one of my own, but I think you are missing something here. Jim Benning is the GM of the Vancouver Canucks hockey operation. The Utica Comets are under his control. The prospects under contract to the Canucks sent to the Comets are under his auspices. He has the final say over what happens to his prospects. The Utica staff has a heavy influence but not the final word on roster spots. They are not exclusive Green/Conacher selections. If Benning wishes a player under contract to Vancouver remain on the Utica roster, he can make it so, e.g. Stewart at the break of Utica's camp. Utica has control over the non Vancouver guys that fill out the roster. Green has control over his lineup, but Benning could make a demand. It doesn't happen often, but he can do it. Green, his coaches, and Conacher are not independent of Vancouver influence. They are usually given the rope to coach and run their team as they see fit, but it's not an autonomous program and can be tweaked at the parent club's desire.

Thus, Stewart was kept at Vancouver's "request" and Fox, Blomstrand, and Valk were demoted with Vancouver's blessing not at Utica's demand.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I hate to argue with one of my own, but I think you are missing something here. Jim Benning is the GM of the Vancouver Canucks hockey operation. The Utica Comets are under his control. The prospects under contract to the Canucks sent to the Comets are under his auspices. He has the final say over what happens to his prospects. The Utica staff has a heavy influence but not the final word on roster spots. They are not exclusive Green/Conacher selections. If Benning wishes a player under contract to Vancouver remain on the Utica roster, he can make it so, e.g. Stewart at the break of Utica's camp. Utica has control over the non Vancouver guys that fill out the roster. Green has control over his lineup, but Benning could make a demand. It doesn't happen often, but he can do it. Green, his coaches, and Conacher are not independent of Vancouver influence. They are usually given the rope to coach and run their team as they see fit, but it's not an autonomous program and can be tweaked at the parent club's desire.

Thus, Stewart was kept at Vancouver's "request" and Fox, Blomstrand, and Valk were demoted with Vancouver's blessing not at Utica's demand.

Thank you again for bringing some sense to this discussion.

 

[Nomobo]

I hate to argue with one of my own, but I think you are missing something here. Jim Benning is the GM of the Vancouver Canucks hockey operation. The Utica Comets are under his control. The prospects under contract to the Canucks sent to the Comets are under his auspices. He has the final say over what happens to his prospects. The Utica staff has a heavy influence but not the final word on roster spots. They are not exclusive Green/Conacher selections. If Benning wishes a player under contract to Vancouver remain on the Utica roster, he can make it so, e.g. Stewart at the break of Utica's camp. Utica has control over the non Vancouver guys that fill out the roster. Green has control over his lineup, but Benning could make a demand. It doesn't happen often, but he can do it. Green, his coaches, and Conacher are not independent of Vancouver influence. They are usually given the rope to coach and run their team as they see fit, but it's not an autonomous program and can be tweaked at the parent club's desire.

Thus, Stewart was kept at Vancouver's "request" and Fox, Blomstrand, and Valk were demoted with Vancouver's blessing not at Utica's demand.

Please enlighten us, how do you know this? Are you saying that it's in no way possible that Green didn't want those players on his team?

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

[/B]

Please enlighten us, how do you know this? Are you saying that it's in no way possible that Green didn't want those players on his team?

The Canucks own the franchise. Conacher and Green are employees of said franchise. Benning and the gang up there will always have final say.

 

[Hit the post]

Please enlighten us, how do you know this? Are you saying that it's in no way possible that Green didn't want those players on his team?

Yeah sounds plausible that he'd want Stewart (at this stage in his development) on the team.

 

[Nomobo]

The Canucks own the franchise. Conacher and Green are employees of said franchise. Benning and the gang up there will always have final say.

I don't know, Green has seen these guys play more than anyone. If i'm Green's boss seeing how good of a job he is doing with future players, I'd be inclined to give him a whole lot of leeway in the way he runs his team and if I were Green and didn't get that leeway, I'd be outta there as soon as an opportunity came up.
I was an employer for most of my working life, the proof's in the pudding.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I don't know, Green has seen these guys play more than anyone. If i'm Green's boss seeing how good of a job he is doing with future players, I'd be inclined to give him a whole lot of leeway in the way he runs his team and if I were Green and didn't get that leeway, I'd be outta there as soon as an opportunity came up.
I was an employer for most of my working life, the proof's in the pudding.

I agree with what you're saying...I didn't say Green didn't have a long leash.....they do listen to him....all I am saying is push comes to shove, Benning is higher on the totem pole.

 

[rune74]

I agree with what you're saying...I didn't say Green didn't have a long leash.....they do listen to him....all I am saying is push comes to shove, Benning is higher on the totem pole.

This is true.

But do you think for a second Green said to Benning, I think we have a player here and he should be playing with the AHL team....and Benning said, "Gee no...he was a Gillis pick?"

Seems like it would be a bit far fetched to think a GM would be willing to just let a player go like that.

 

[BuzzBuzz]

This is true.

But do you think for a second Green said to Benning, I think we have a player here and he should be playing with the AHL team....and Benning said, "Gee no...he was a Gillis pick?"

Seems like it would be a bit far fetched to think a GM would be willing to just let a player go like that.

He kinda just let Shinkaruk go so yeah I would believe that

 

[PM]

I don't know, Green has seen these guys play more than anyone. If i'm Green's boss seeing how good of a job he is doing with future players, I'd be inclined to give him a whole lot of leeway in the way he runs his team and if I were Green and didn't get that leeway, I'd be outta there as soon as an opportunity came up.
I was an employer for most of my working life, the proof's in the pudding.

Every AHL coach of an AHL team owned by NHL team is going to have input from the higher ups, it's a part of the job description. The primary purpose of the farm team is to develop players for their parent club.

Independently owned teams like the Chicago Wolves and Hershey Bears have more leeway but even then if you remember a few years ago our management was not happy with the Wolves insistence on playing veterans over the guys we were trying to develop. So I would say that every AHL team receives directives from the parent club, the teams that aren't owned by the parent club can choose to ignore it.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

This is true.

But do you think for a second Green said to Benning, I think we have a player here and he should be playing with the AHL team....and Benning said, "Gee no...he was a Gillis pick?"

Seems like it would be a bit far fetched to think a GM would be willing to just let a player go like that.

\
I don't think that for a second or a minute or ever. I believe Travis gives a rodents rear end who drafted a player or if he comes from the ECHL. Look, these ECHL guys weren't signed behind Benning's back. I'm sure he didn't want to trade Hunter, he spent hundreds of hours with him. I'm sure Gaunce isn't up with the Canucks because travis said he is ready. Anyone can see how exposed he has been up there and he clearly isn't ready for the NHL...not even close.

The point being Green is the coach down here and develops the players he is give...he certainly has input...I'm sure he told Benning that Fox wasn't ready to contribute yet...did he pull the trigger? No

I'm not on the inside. All I know there is a pecking order and Benning and Linden are above Greener.


Separate thread: No way Green stays with this organization.

 

[Nomobo]

Every AHL coach of an AHL team owned by NHL team is going to have input from the higher ups, it's a part of the job description. The primary purpose of the farm team is to develop players for their parent club.

Independently owned teams like the Chicago Wolves and Hershey Bears have more leeway but even then if you remember a few years ago our management was not happy with the Wolves insistence on playing veterans over the guys we were trying to develop. So I would say that every AHL team receives directives from the parent club, the teams that aren't owned by the parent club can choose to ignore it.

I get that but all I'm saying is that it's more likely that Benning and the Utica brass reached consensus on the players in question than a case of Benning overruling them and telling them that there's no room for Fox and co.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I get that but all I'm saying is that it's more likely that Benning and the Utica brass reached consensus on the players in question than a case of Benning overruling them and telling them that there's no room for Fox and co.

I agree with you on this.